Reduce city sales tax

[ChristianConservative]

I think it's time that we consider reducing our city sales tax. Compare to many other cities our size, we have a much higher sales tax. National average trends around 6%. We're at 8.375%. This is a huge turn off to businesses. It's time that we allow people to have more money in their pockets by dropping city sales tax. One place to start is by stopping corporate welfare projects like bailing our school system out, giving money away to hotel chains like Marcus Hotels and Resorts, giving TIF money away to developers that should have to raise money the same way other developers do, etc.

It isn't the city's reponsibiltity to finance every private venture. In fact, I think financing private ventures is stepping over the line for our city. Bass Pro Shops was a huge mistake, as was the city forking over money to give to the Hornets, etc. If private companies like the Hornets, Bass Pro Shops, etc. want to do business here, they should be under the same restrictions as everyone else. When I decided to start an oil company here, the city didn't come running to me with incentives.

[Easy180]

I think differently on Bass Pro and the Hornets...Oklahoma is so far down on many corporation's expansion lists that it may take throwing money their way to get some attention for our fine state

I compare it to teams like the Pirates and Royals who have to overpay for free agents just to get consideration

[Midtowner]

CC: There is a reason it's said that the best investment in this state is in a winning political campaign.

[mranderson]

I think it's time that we consider reducing our city sales tax. Compare to many other cities our size, we have a much higher sales tax. National average trends around 6%. We're at 8.375%. This is a huge turn off to businesses. It's time that we allow people to have more money in their pockets by dropping city sales tax. One place to start is by stopping corporate welfare projects like bailing our school system out, giving money away to hotel chains like Marcus Hotels and Resorts, giving TIF money away to developers that should have to raise money the same way other developers do, etc.

It isn't the city's reponsibiltity to finance every private venture. In fact, I think financing private ventures is stepping over the line for our city. Bass Pro Shops was a huge mistake, as was the city forking over money to give to the Hornets, etc. If private companies like the Hornets, Bass Pro Shops, etc. want to do business here, they should be under the same restrictions as everyone else. When I decided to start an oil company here, the city didn't come running to me with incentives.

First. The city did not "fork over" money to give the Hornets. If anything, the city invested in the team... And won. Had the city not invested in them, Kansas City would have gotten the team, and we would still be that untapped fortune. In fact, the city earned a 1.2 million dollar profit off the deal which will go into the general fund. Plus the six or so million dollar windfall (excess above budget) will be used for road and signal improvements.

The city also is winning with Bass Pro. They are making a profit. I admit, I would rather have seen the city bid for Cabela's by saying "you pay, not us," however, the Bass Pro venture was profitable.

If we did not have the sales tax we have, we would not have a nice arena, therefore, once again, no major league team. Now, before you say you do not care, ask those 20,000 people that pack the Ford Center every game night what THEY think. Ask the business owners that have more business as a result of the Hornets relocation here. All will tell you they are thankful for an occasional increase in taxes.

If we did not have the tax rate we do, we would not have the quailty Police and Fire departments we have. We have some of the best in the nation with both being nationally recognized for their technology and service. Because of those taxes you do not want to pay, Oklahoma City has not had a single firefighter die in the line of duty since 1989, and only three in my lifetime. Because of those taxes you do not want to pay, Oklahoma City has only had two police officers die in the line of duty since 1990 (or 91). NOT ONE since that day has been shot to death.

If we did not have the taxes you do not want to pay, we would not have improvements in our roads and bridges. Granted, they need a lot more work, however, they would be a lot worse if it was not for those taxes.

If we did not have those taxes you do not want to pay, we would not be in the process of upgrading our public schools. Most were in so bad of shape, they should have been condemed.

I can go on and on. Taxes are a must. You use it, you pay for it. Governments are businesses. Non profit business yes. Not in the charitable sense, mind you. Governments invest their money just like you and I do, and use the profits from those investments to invest back into their body. Such as the city of Oklahoma City.

All I can say, is I will gladly vote in favor of new sales tax because I know it is being invested and spent wisley.

One more thing... If you do not like the tax rate, then move elsewhere.

[The Old Downtown Guy]

. . . . When I decided to start an oil company here, the city didn't come running to me with incentives.

Googling "Oil Industry Subsidies" returns 2450 hits. You might want to check out a few, you may be missing out on some goodies.

. . . . I think it's time that we consider reducing our city sales tax. Compare to many other cities our size, we have a much higher sales tax. National average trends around 6%. We're at 8.375%. This is a huge turn off to businesses.

Here is a link to all state sales taxes and Oklahoma at 4.5% is in the middle of the pack.

State Sales Tax Rates

At 3.875% Local Tax Rate, 8.375% Total, OKC is in the upper range of the cities I checked out. Here is how it breaks down as exerpted from dustbury.com

"(For comparison, the Oklahoma City sales tax is apportioned as follows: two cents, general expenditures; one cent, MAPS for Kids [expires 1/2009]; 0.75 cent, earmarked for public safety; 0.125 cent, Oklahoma City Zoo. Including the 4.5-cent state sales tax, this comes to 8.375 cents, unless you're in the part of the city that extends into Canadian County, which levies a 0.35-cent sales tax of its own. Tulsa County has a 1.017-cent sales tax; Oklahoma County has no sales tax.)"

I personally think your argument is lame CC. But that's just my opinion.

[John]

I'd rather a national sales tax replacing the federal income tax.

[mranderson]

I'd rather a national sales tax replacing the federal income tax.

I totally agree. It should be ten percent.

[Spartan]

Just so you all people know, a national sales tax would not have made Bricktown or the Ford Center.

[mranderson]

Just so you all people know, a national sales tax would not have made Bricktown or the Ford Center.

Granted. It was just a comment and an agreement.

[okcpulse]

I think it's time that we consider reducing our city sales tax. Compare to many other cities our size, we have a much higher sales tax. National average trends around 6%. We're at 8.375%. This is a huge turn off to businesses. It's time that we allow people to have more money in their pockets by dropping city sales tax. One place to start is by stopping corporate welfare projects like bailing our school system out, giving money away to hotel chains like Marcus Hotels and Resorts, giving TIF money away to developers that should have to raise money the same way other developers do, etc.

It isn't the city's reponsibiltity to finance every private venture. In fact, I think financing private ventures is stepping over the line for our city. Bass Pro Shops was a huge mistake, as was the city forking over money to give to the Hornets, etc. If private companies like the Hornets, Bass Pro Shops, etc. want to do business here, they should be under the same restrictions as everyone else. When I decided to start an oil company here, the city didn't come running to me with incentives.

For starters, ChristianConservative, your argument has a very poor foundation based on assumption, not facts. I do understand your feelings, but in turn you must understand the purpose sales taxes serve for Oklahoma, and where we should really cut.

As mranderson pointed out, we have a lot of top quality services in Oklahoma City because of the taxes we pay.

Please understand that the city didn't use sales tax money to lure Bass Pro. It used use tax money paid by construction companies at a rate EQUIVALENT to the sales tax rate. We are not bailing out our public school system. We are overhauling our public school system. Should have taken a tour of Douglass before demolition. It was worse than a vacated building. And that is no joke.

You shouldn't throw TIF money into your argument. We don't pay a dime on those taxes. Downtown property owners do. Every city has helped finance downtown private projects in some form or another.

Also take into account taxes Oklahoma City doesn't pay that cities like here in Houston pay. Property taxes three times higher than Oklahoma (and no it's not because homes here have higher value- in actuality, their value is slightly higher). Stealth taxes. New resident taxes. Inspection fees that are $41.50 per year per vehicle. And Houston sales taxes are 8.25% on the dollar. 6.25 percent goes to Texas, two percent goes to Houston's general fund. And let's not forget higher gas taxes.

It's easier on you because when you visit another city, sales tax is all you pay. Live in another city, and receive your slap-in-the-face welcome to our town letter.

[BDP]

place to start is by stopping corporate welfare projects

When I decided to start an oil company here...

Your irony is classic.

Am I the only one that is beginning to think that CC is a parody? If so, good show!

[soonerguru]

Unfortunately, I'm thinking CC is saying these things without a hint of irony. Therefore, no show.

I've been extremely impressed with the way our city has been run for at least a decade -- and I'm a bit of a cynic by nature. Though I didn't vote for Mickster, I think he too has done a good job.

Let's put it this way, our city gov. has done a far superior job running our city than the "Christian" Consservatives are doing in DC.

Citizens here can see real progress for the investment they have made in the Maps I and II sales tax increases. We live in a far better city today as a result of those taxes.

Ideological "purity" is a non-starter for governing. Imagine where our country would be if Grover Norquist called all the shots in Washington. Oh wait......

[ChristianConservative]

CC: There is a reason it's said that the best investment in this state is in a winning political campaign.

So true.

[ChristianConservative]

As mranderson pointed out, we have a lot of top quality services in Oklahoma City because of the taxes we pay.

Our services are no better than in the states where sales taxes are much less.

Please understand that the city didn't use sales tax money to lure Bass Pro. It used use tax money paid by construction companies at a rate EQUIVALENT to the sales tax rate.

It's money that should've gone into a fund to maintain the MAPS Projects. Now what happens when the canal springs a leak? Or the Ford Center needs renovation?

We are not bailing out our public school system. We are overhauling our public school system. Should have taken a tour of Douglass before demolition. It was worse than a vacated building. And that is no joke.

That is the fault of the Oklahoma City School System and their failures on previous bond issues. The 1993 bond issue was completely mishandled.

You shouldn't throw TIF money into your argument. We don't pay a dime on those taxes. Downtown property owners do. Every city has helped finance downtown private projects in some form or another.

Read Midtowner's comments regarding TIF.

Also take into account taxes Oklahoma City doesn't pay that cities like here in Houston pay. Property taxes three times higher than Oklahoma (and no it's not because homes here have higher value- in actuality, their value is slightly higher). Stealth taxes. New resident taxes. Inspection fees that are $41.50 per year per vehicle. And Houston sales taxes are 8.25% on the dollar. 6.25 percent goes to Texas, two percent goes to Houston's general fund. And let's not forget higher gas taxes.

Houston also doesn't have an income tax.

It's easier on you because when you visit another city, sales tax is all you pay. Live in another city, and receive your slap-in-the-face welcome to our town letter.

Right, we should be giving a warmer welcome to our tourists by lowering sales taxes. Make up the difference with other forms of taxes. Or better yet, handle money appropriately, and quit wasting it.

[ChristianConservative]

Unfortunately, I'm thinking CC is saying these things without a hint of irony. Therefore, no show.

Oh, there is no irony in anything I've said. I'm dead serious in my statements here.

I've been extremely impressed with the way our city has been run for at least a decade -- and I'm a bit of a cynic by nature. Though I didn't vote for Mickster, I think he too has done a good job.

This is for another topic, but honestly, I feel Mick has done nothing. Had Katrina not happened, can you name anything else he's done? And the only reason he got the Hornets here is thanks to Ron Norick.

Let's put it this way, our city gov. has done a far superior job running our city than the "Christian" Consservatives are doing in DC.

I see no problem in the way the Christian Conservatives are running our government. Tax cuts are finally taking effect through trickle down economics, and that's why you see the economy finally beginning to boom, as it's leaving a recession in the dust. All we need now is a Democrat to take office in DC, raise taxes, and kill the economie's momentum.

Citizens here can see real progress for the investment they have made in the Maps I and II sales tax increases. We live in a far better city today as a result of those taxes.

I don't disagree, and I'm not opposed to MAPS. MAPS is only a part of the 8.375% we pay.

[floater]

I believe in "corporate welfare" as you call it -- because economic development is an arms race, and unless all cities stop offering them, OKC will lose out.

I second the praise for OKC's governance. Moody's actually raised our bond rating because of all the investments we have been making. If anyone commands the standard of municipal finance and governance, its Moody's and Standard and Poor's. OKC is a model.

[okieopus]

There are no "Christian Conservatives"
in power. They may be Christian, but they are far from conservative. Have you seen the national debt lately? $28,539.22. is currently your share.

By the way, Sales Taxes have little to do with tourism. Have you ever seen "Low Sales Tax" in a travel magazine.

[BDP]

Oh, there is no irony in anything I've said. I'm dead serious in my statements here.

Well, there certainly is a lot of irony in your statements, no matter how serious you are.

Tax cuts are finally taking effect through trickle down economics, and that's why you see the economy finally beginning to boom, as it's leaving a recession in the dust. All we need now is a Democrat to take office in DC, raise taxes, and kill the economie's momentum.

Sorry, but, see that’s ironic and funny.

You obviously get a lot of this from campaigns and stump speeches, but it really doesn't work that way. I'm not even against your basic cause here. Sales tax is a regressive tax that affects those with the least amount of income the hardest. I think we should at least remove sales tax from perishables. That's almost cruel to tax someone for their basic foods.

However, this tax cuts = trickle down bolley-hoo and the blind partisan rhetoric you use doesn't really make a good case. I'm sorry I questioned your sincerity, I just didn't think people really bought in to that stuff.

[ChristianConservative]

Sales tax is a regressive tax that affects those with the least amount of income the hardest.

That's not true at all. Rich people tend to buy more merchandise. Look at how much they spend on clothing alone. And then there's the large screen televisions. The home theater systems. The expensive furniture. Then they spend even more on furniture for their offices, office supplies, etc.

I'm sorry I questioned your sincerity, I just didn't think people really bought in to that stuff.

There's no buying into it. It's the truth. Tax cuts in all areas spur the economy. Regardless of who tax cuts help, they put money in people's pockets that would have otherwise been in the pockets of the government.

[mranderson]

Our services are no better than in the states where sales taxes are much less.



It's money that should've gone into a fund to maintain the MAPS Projects. Now what happens when the canal springs a leak? Or the Ford Center needs renovation?



That is the fault of the Oklahoma City School System and their failures on previous bond issues. The 1993 bond issue was completely mishandled.



Read Midtowner's comments regarding TIF.



Houston also doesn't have an income tax.

Right, we should be giving a warmer welcome to our tourists by lowering sales taxes. Make up the difference with other forms of taxes. Or better yet, handle money appropriately, and quit wasting it.

1. I suggest you go through the citizen academys and you will learn first hand how much better out departments are than most in the United States. Even cities much larger than Oklahoma City.

2. There is money for upkeep of the projects. No need to worry.

3. Oklahoma has one of the worst bond issue laws in the nation. Bond issues and taxes are much different. I would be willing to bet you did not attend Oklahoma City schools, so, I doubt you know the condition they were in. If you want to place blame, then try Sandy Garrett. She has done nothing for the schools in Oklahoma worth while.

4. (skipping your comment about midtowner) I suggest you move to Houston if you think it is the haven you seem to think.

Until then, just accept the fact most people have gottten over their unwilling ness to pay for what they use and now vote in favor of taxes.

[ChristianConservative]

2. There is money for upkeep of the projects. No need to worry.

Yeah? Where? Much of the MAPS repair fund was spent on Bass Pro Shops. If anything major happened to one of the MAPS projects, we'd be up a creek without a paddle.

3. Oklahoma has one of the worst bond issue laws in the nation. Bond issues and taxes are much different. I would be willing to bet you did not attend Oklahoma City schools, so, I doubt you know the condition they were in. If you want to place blame, then try Sandy Garrett. She has done nothing for the schools in Oklahoma worth while.

I graduated from Northwest Classen High School. Yes, I completely blame Sandy Garrett.

4. (skipping your comment about midtowner) I suggest you move to Houston if you think it is the haven you seem to think.

I'll pass.

Until then, just accept the fact most people have gottten over their unwilling ness to pay for what they use and now vote in favor of taxes.

I never said the people shouldn't pay for it. I think the city shouldn't be helping out organizations that are completely separate from the operations of the city, e.g., the surrounding school districts. If the school districts need raise money for repairs, then they need to learn to handle money responsibly, and ask the people within their districts to pay for repairs via bond issues, millage increases, etc.

It isn't the city of Oklahoma City's responsibility to help everyone out. I think the city is crossing dangerous terrority helping corporations like Bass Pro Shops, the Oklahoma City Public Schools, Marcus Hotels and Resorts, etc.

Please note, I voted in favor of the Oklahoma City Public Schools Bond Issue, but against MAPS for Kids. There were two parts to the package, if you remember right.

[mranderson]

Our services are no better than in the states where sales taxes are much less.



It's money that should've gone into a fund to maintain the MAPS Projects. Now what happens when the canal springs a leak? Or the Ford Center needs renovation?



That is the fault of the Oklahoma City School System and their failures on previous bond issues. The 1993 bond issue was completely mishandled.



Read Midtowner's comments regarding TIF.



Houston also doesn't have an income tax.

Right, we should be giving a warmer welcome to our tourists by lowering sales taxes. Make up the difference with other forms of taxes. Or better yet, handle money appropriately, and quit wasting it.

Yeah? Where? Much of the MAPS repair fund was spent on Bass Pro Shops. If anything major happened to one of the MAPS projects, we'd be up a creek without a paddle.



I graduated from Northwest Classen High School. Yes, I completely blame Sandy Garrett.



I'll pass.



I never said the people shouldn't pay for it. I think the city shouldn't be helping out organizations that are completely separate from the operations of the city, e.g., the surrounding school districts. If the school districts need raise money for repairs, then they need to learn to handle money responsibly, and ask the people within their districts to pay for repairs via bond issues, millage increases, etc.

It isn't the city of Oklahoma City's responsibility to help everyone out. I think the city is crossing dangerous terrority helping corporations like Bass Pro Shops, the Oklahoma City Public Schools, Marcus Hotels and Resorts, etc.

Please note, I voted in favor of the Oklahoma City Public Schools Bond Issue, but against MAPS for Kids. There were two parts to the package, if you remember right.

The funds are in a contengancy fund created from larger than expected tax revenues. No MAPS money was spent on Bass Pro. In addition. Although I am not always in favor of government bodies kissing the tuchas of the large business, it happens. How much to you think the city of Oklahoma City paid Dell to locate here? BTW. Not one penny was MAPS money.

I took a chance. Funny. If you really DID graduate from an Oklahoma City high school, then you should know what shape they were in.

If you did not want the people to pay for better schools, then how do you expect to get the money?

If you do not like the taxes, then move. Pass or no pass. You live here, you use the facilities and the roads, then you pay for that privlidge. Along with everyone else, including visitors.

[ChristianConservative]

The funds are in a contengancy fund created from larger than expected tax revenues.

I ask you to show me the evidence, because the statement you've made is completely false.

No MAPS money was spent on Bass Pro.

Money from a MAPS use tax fund (money obtained from taxing goods and services of the developers involved in the MAPS projects) was supposed to be set aside in an account to be used to maintain the MAPS projects. Instead, the money was raided to pay for Bass Pro, among other projects.

How much to you think the city of Oklahoma City paid Dell to locate here?

Whatever it was, it was a complete waste of tax payer money. I think it's ludicrous to spend tax payer money for jobs that pay a starting salary of $12 an hour.

I took a chance. Funny. If you really DID graduate from an Oklahoma City high school, then you should know what shape they were in.

I graduated from Northwest Classen. My children graduated from Heritage Hall.

If you did not want the people to pay for better schools, then how do you expect to get the money?

I don't mind the people paying for better schools. It just isn't the city's responsibility to foot the bill or manage the money. It's the responsibility of the school board.

If you do not like the taxes, then move. Pass or no pass. You live here, you use the facilities and the roads, then you pay for that privlidge. Along with everyone else, including visitors.

I express my disapproval by my vote. Moving is a loser's answer to the problems we face.

I have no problem with paying for the facilities. The mismanagement of money is what I disaprove of. And, the city spending money in inappropriate ways, is what I disapprove. City government shouldn't be in the business of helping fund private investment.

[Easy180]

cc...Ludicrous to use taxpayer money to lure businesses with starting pay jobs of $12 an hour

Are there many businesses with starting pay of $20 or $30 an hour beating down the door to expand to Oklahoma?

[ChristianConservative]

cc...Ludicrous to use taxpayer money to lure businesses with starting pay jobs of $12 an hour

Are there many businesses with starting pay of $20 or $30 an hour beating down the door to expand to Oklahoma?

We can get call centers, $12 an hour jobs, without having to subsidize. Just look at Sprint, AOL, etc.