What does the Bible really say?

[Midtowner]

If you're someone who takes the Bible literally, don't read this.
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Still here? Then you'll probably enjoy this...

>The following letter appeared in the Lewiston Morning Tribune in Lewiston, Idaho on Sunday, September 5, 2004:
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>Dear President Bush:
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>Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have learned a great deal from you and understand why you would propose and support a constitutional amendment banning same sexmarriage. As you said, "In the eyes of God, marriage is based betweena man and a woman." When someone tries to defend homosexuals, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. I need more advice on following some other elements of God's laws:
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>Lev 25:44 states that I may possess slaves provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Why can't I own Canadians?
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>I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. What would be a fair price for her on today's market?
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>I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him, or could I ask the police to do it?
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>A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is anabomination, Lev 11:10 says it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there "degrees" of abomination?
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>Lev 21:20 states that I many not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20 or is there some wiggle-room here?
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>I know you have considerable expertise in such matters, and I'mc onfident you will help. Thanks for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
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>Helen P. Henry
>Lewiston

[Patrick]

One thing to consider.....all of the references given are from the Old Testament. The New Covenant given in the New Testament through Jesus Christ has changed many of these laws and their punishments. You must remember, in the Old Testament days, in order to receive atonement for sins, you had to make a sacrifice, or pay some other price, such as death, for your sins. In the New Covenant, Grace through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ has covered it all, so many of these factors no longer apply. Yes, the Bible is never changingbut you have to remember it's also a history book....you have to read the entire story to find out what happens in the end. Just reading the first half of the story doesn't tell you the entire story and how it ends.

The issue on homosexuality hasn't changes under the New Covenent...just read Romans Chapter 1, where the entire act of homoexuality is described and listed as wicked and sinful.

With the Sabbath it depends on how literally you take it....I believe you can take your Sabbath any day, but you just need to make sure to take a day of rest. Heck, pastors work Sunday. Most take off Saturday for their Sabbath. That's the way my pastor has always explained it. Yes, some Christians work 24/7.....is it sinful? Well, yes, I suppose. But again, the price Jesus paid on the cross covers these sins, as long as the sinner repents and accepts Christ.

Slavery...that's an interesting topic. It doesn't appear to me that the Bible ever declared slavery as being sinful. Does that mean it's right? Well, that's a great topic for debate.

The Leviticus 21:20 topic is interesting. One thing to consider though...it is true that sinful beings aren't allowed to approach the throne of God. But again, Jesus' Grace covers the sins, so through Jesus, sinners are allowed to approach the throne of God.

Anyways, that's an interesting topic, and I just thought I'd explain it from the Protestant perspective. I know other people may have other views on this, and I fully respect that. But, I just wanted to give a little insight into how Christians explain this.

[Midtowner]

Your particular sect of Christianity believes in salvation through faith alone? The Catholic Church to which I belong believes that salvation is reached through a combination of faith and works. I guess it all goes back to Martin Luther and 99 little issues he had with my church so many years ago though

I do think it's interesting how we sometimes pick and choose which parts of the Bible are important to follow. There are clearly some things that don't seem to be societally applicable today. I think the bottom line is that God seems to have endowed us with a sense of right and wrong -- a moral compass. My feeling is that if each individual follows that, they should be fine (perhaps an oversimplifed view, but it works).

[Patrick]

The Bible clearly states that salvation is through grace alone, not works. Now, works are a reflection of your relationship with Christ, and you will be rewarded for your works in heaven, but works alone will not save you. Will grace alone save you without works? Well, Corinthians states that you will be saved by Grace, but just as if you escaped from the flames. It always seems like Grace is followed up with good works. Although they, by themselves won't save you, works are a direct reflection of a healthy relationship with Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2 (New American)
Ephesians 2
8For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved ([1] delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;
9Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law's demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.]

Ephesians 2 (New Living Translation)
8God saved you by his special favor when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

Also from Corinthians (discussing what will happen to a man that has Grace without works...this basically shows the importance of good works, but reminds us that they're not what saves us):

1 Corinthians 3
"10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. "

[Midtowner]

James 2:14-26 14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith, but does not have works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothes and lacks daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you don't give them what the body needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way faith, if it doesn't have works, is dead by itself. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without works, and I will show you faith from my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. The demons also believe--and they shudder. 20 Foolish man! Are you willing to learn that faith without works is useless? 21 Wasn't Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active together with his works, and by works, faith was perfected. 23 So the Scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness, and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way, wasn't Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by a different route? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

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There are scriptures to contradict this as well. In posting the article, I don't necessarily agree 100% with it. I realize that Christ brought change, but there are many things discussed in Leviticus that are still considered sinful while other things are not. Of course, the relevance of a 5000 year old document to today can be questioned.

My personal stance on faith (and the stance of the Catholic Church) is that we have a tradition dating back to St. Peter and therefore, can base our faith on both the Bible and tradition.

St. Thomas Aquinas was one of the great religious scholars of history. He reconciled a lot of Catholic beliefs with both the Bible and Aristotolian logic. An amazing guy. Do a Google search for him. He should be required reading for ALL Christians. Many of us depend on the Bible for proof of God's existance, Aquinas was able to show the logical necessity of it through 3 different logical proofs (of course, Aristotle was able to prove that there were only 4 elements also, but so what? )

Again, I digress a little bit. I posted this half toungue in cheek and half not. It could also be construed as a backhanded attack on the Jewish faith.

[Patrick]

I think in a way we actually agree on this...... faith and works go together. If you have faith, works will be the result of your faith. A lack of works is a sign of a lack of faith. However, several groups (the Mormon church to be exact) put a special emphasis on works and claim that they can save you. They fail to recognize the power of God's Grace.

[Midtowner]

I think in a way we actually agree on this...... faith and works go together. If you have faith, works will be the result of your faith. A lack of works is a sign of a lack of faith. However, several groups (the Mormon church to be exact) put a special emphasis on works and claim that they can save you. They fail to recognize the power of God's Grace.

Then you'd agree that it's erroneous to put your full stock into either one without paying particular attention to both.

[Patrick]

For the most part I'd have to agree with that, because works are a direct result of faith. Works are alsoa sign of the strength of your faith. As the verse says, without works faith is dead. But by the same token there are a few sects out there that believe that works alone can save you....that's just false. I'm in no way meaning to bash a religious group here, but the reason Mormons go around knocking on doors is because they feel that the more good deeds they can do, the better their chances of getting to heaven, and hopefully their better chances of becoming a god over a principality.

[Midtowner]

For the most part I'd have to agree with that, because works are a direct result of faith. Works are alsoa sign of the strength of your faith. As the verse says, without works faith is dead. But by the same token there are a few sects out there that believe that works alone can save you....that's just false. I'm in no way meaning to bash a religious group here, but the reason Mormons go around knocking on doors is because they feel that the more good deeds they can do, the better their chances of getting to heaven, and hopefully their better chances of becoming a god over a principality.

I thought that the Mormons believed that Heaven was full and the only hope at this point was some lesser place. If anyone's Mormon on here, feel free to correct me.

I've heard strange things about that religion... But that's for another thread