Does God want Joel Osteen to be rich?

[Midtowner]

Does God want Joel Osteen to be mega-rich?

You know -- NBA-stadium-owning, first-class-flying, flight-attendant-assaulting, huge-mansion-owning?

[Easy180]

Absolutely...the 21st Century God has finally discovered that bling bling and multi-million dollar chapels are now the preferred methods of teaching Christians to be humble and charitable...As long as the charity goes directly to the new Jumbotron video screen for the chapel

[drumsncode]

I like the question. You might extend it out to "How rich is rich enough?".

Living a completely opulent lifestyle is something that has always turned me off on people. I find myself wondering, why does someone need a $100,000 car, a 12 million dollar house, etc., when that money could do so much good elsewhere?

I'm not talking about Joel specifically here, I'm just talking about flaunting ridiculous wealth in general.

[Martin]

joel certainly deserves to get paid for his work. while his salary as pastor of lakewood is nothing to sneeze at, most of his money comes from book sales. since the bulk of his wealth doesn't line his pockets directly from the church coffers, osteen might not be the best example.

does god want joel osteen to be filthy rich? i doubt it. i don't think that any servant of god should live in opulence by profiting from a message that is allegedly inspired by god. besides that, it's counterproductive for him to live a celebrity lifestyle... the focus should be on god, not on joel osteen. so, it's bad for joel and it's bad for those who follow joel.

since this is a pointed question, i'll ask a pointed question in return... does god want the pope to live like a king and be surrounded by wealth and splendor? -M

[Midtowner]

m -- interesting question. I never really looked into the Pope's lifestyle, but Benedict, it seems would tend to agree with you.

han that of his predecessor, in tune with the concerns of young Christians who are ill-at-ease with rampant consumerism, environmental degradation and a continuing wealth gap.

Benedict has cut down the permanent staffing levels in his appartamento to three domestic workers. In interviews ahead of the Cologne visit, his right-hand man, the dashingly blond 48-year-old Georg Gänswein, led camera crews around the Vatican's farm, showing off its palatial hen coops, happy cows, insecticide-free tomatoes and organic milk factory.

And not for the new Pope a bulletproof Volkswagen Touareg for his visit to Cologne; John Paul II's 25-year-old Popemobile sufficed. In a similar vein, Benedict is said to have done away with the requirement for his visitors to kiss his hand, and in a profoundly symbolic gesture has ordered the tiara - a symbol of the Holy See's worldwide might - to be removed from the papal coat of arms. Finally, unlike Wojtyla, Benedict speaks of himself in the first person rather than using the 'royal we'.

'His bywords are learning, helping, healing. He is not interested in the spectacular but in that which is important,' said German theologian Eugen Biser, who speaks of the Benediktinisierung (the Benedictine-isation) of the Catholic faith under the new Pope.

Peter Fuchs, a German Catholic sociologist, has welcomed the change of style and expressed hopes the World Youth Day festival - launched by John Paul II in 1985 - will be scrapped under his successor. 'We live in an age of spectacle, and perhaps it is time for the church to break from that phenomenon and show the way.'

(sorry, forgot to get the link before I moved on)

For someone who 'is the job,' in other words, he has no vacation, no time off, no recreation, just work, all day, every day, the support staff, and some of the amenities are justified.

As for 'living like a king,' the Pope only occupies a very small part of the Vatican.

Some more on his 'luxurious lifestyle.'

Many Americans often assume, by way of analogy to Air Force One, that the pope has his own plane that he uses on all his travels, perhaps with office space, living quarters, meeting rooms and so on. In fact, the pope does not own an airplane. When he flies out of Italy, he does so on a plane provided by Alitalia, the national carrier of Italy. When he comes home, he normally takes the national carrier of the country from which he is returning. In this case, that means Lufthansa. In either case, these are normal commercial planes that were probably in service the day before and will be again the day after. His lone "perk," so to speak, is that he sits up front in a first class seat. Occasionally, especially for longer flights, the plane will be modified slightly; when John Paul II flew to Toronto in 2002, for example, some of the seating in the first class cabin was removed so that a full bed could be installed. Normally, however, he rides more or less like any other passenger.

http://www.nationalcatholicreporter....wyd081905a.htm

I'm not really sure how you feel he "lives like a king." Sure, he doesn't live like a regular person, but would it be realistic for the Pope to do his own grocery shopping? Go to the mall on weekends? Normal things? Nope. It also wouldn't be safe for him.

Most of the Vatican's treasures these days are on display to the public. The Vatican is certainly not a 'for profit' business. The trappings of the Church are certainly not the private property of the individuals within it. That, I think is a key distinction. Clergy of the Catholic church dedicate their lives to the Church, not to making sure they have enough retirement benefits and savings accrued that they might live comfortably upon 'retirement' (something most Catholic clergy never really do).

The Pope's lifestyle has a purpose. He's the head of the largest organization in the world. Naturally, he's going to lead a different lifestyle. On the other hand, guys like Osteen are packing away millions of dollars so that they might enhance their own personal luxuries. The difference between the two is quite real.

[Midtowner]

Here's another reason why televangilists and the Pope are not comparable:

These guys may be the head of as many as one church, or in Craig Groeschel's case, a franchise of 'em consisting of as many as 20? franchise operations.

The Pope is not only the head of the largest church in the world with more individual churches than anyone else, he's also a head of state.

I'd personally have to say that the American President's lifestyle is far more lavish than the Pope's. Both are heads of state, neither necessarily lives like a King. Of the two, only the Pope has taken a no-frills attitude towards his amenities.

[metro]

An American President gets paid in the neighborhood of around $250,000 a year. Far less than any corporate CEO or they could make elsewise. In addition, if an American President (Republican or Democrat) were to act and live as "humble" as the Pope as you put it. They would be killed. It would be a national threat or security issue. The Pope is not in charge of the country he resides in, just Vatican City and yet he has bodyguards and a bullet-proof vehicle, just like an American President.

As far as bringing Craig Groechel up in this case. If you have such a problem with him all the time, why don't you meet him face to face instead of parading behind his back on an online chat forum.

[Midtowner]

Metro: The security surrounding the Pope is often similar (or better than) the American President.

Also, the Vatican City is a country, so yes, the Pope is literally the head of state. I'm not aware that the Pope receives a salary at all.

[Patrick]

I don't think God cares how much Joel Osteen makes, as long as he's making the money honestly. There's nothing wrong with investing your money wisely and being wealthy. I bet he still gives a large share to missions and to help the poor.

Look at Bill Gates....he gives tons of money a way, but still has enough to live a wealthy life.

[Midtowner]

Trading on Jesus' name in order to become wealthy is one of the reasons He died for us?

What chapter and verse is that?

[writerranger]

Joel Osteen (who charges to attend his evangelistic rallies) would seem to have problems with the two verses that follow. In fact, all the "prosperity teachers" who preach that brand of materialistic gospel (to appeal to Western minds - and pocketbooks) always dance around this as well as any spin in American politics.......Pleaase, to have an intelligent discussion on this topic, these two verses must be read carefully.

“Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness! No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon” (Matthew 6:19-24)

and

A young man approached Jesus and said,
“Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?”
He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good?
There is only One who is good.
If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
He asked him, “Which ones?”
And Jesus replied, “You shall not kill;
you shall not commit adultery;
you shall not steal;
you shall not bear false witness;
honor your father and your mother;
and you shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
The young man said to him,
“All of these I have observed. What do I still lack?”
Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go,
sell what you have and give to the poor,
and you will have treasure in heaven.
Then come, follow me.”
When the young man heard this statement, he went away sad,
for he had many possessions.
(Matthew 19:16-22)

Joel, Craig, Paul Crouch......ad infinitum.....???????

To me, it's pretty clear - it's not how much you have, it's how much you have left over after taking care of God's children. It's a problem for biblical literalists - spin aside.

------

[metro]

Metro: The security surrounding the Pope is often similar (or better than) the American President.

Also, the Vatican City is a country, so yes, the Pope is literally the head of state. I'm not aware that the Pope receives a salary at all.

Okay, I will give you those. And the security thing I pretty much agreed with. What about my other question. I'll repeat.

As far as bringing Craig Groechel up in this case. If you have such a problem with him all the time, why don't you meet him face to face instead of parading behind his back on an online chat forum.

[Easy180]

Can you actually meet Craig face to face or does it have to be via videoconference?

[Midtowner]

Okay, I will give you those. And the security thing I pretty much agreed with. What about my other question. I'll repeat.

As far as bringing Craig Groechel up in this case. If you have such a problem with him all the time, why don't you meet him face to face instead of parading behind his back on an online chat forum.

Yeah, I'm sure I'm going to convince this guy who is making millions of dollars to abandon his enterprise because it's probably not something Jesus would have stood for.

Yep sure.

I've met Craig. I can't say where, but I've met the guy. Nice enough man from a good family. Does that mean that I can't disagree with what he's doing? Sure doesn't.

It's not just Craig either. It's the entire Jeebus (i.e. charismatic) movement of Christianity. It's all about sunshine and buttercups and love and happiness and I'm okay/you're okay, eat your vitamins, don't spend more money than you make, etc. while basically tabling most of the substantial intellectual/difficult issues in Christianity. Christ isn't your Buddy Jesus, he's a saviour, part of the Trinity -- it's pretty heavy stuff. I'd say "Give it some thought sometime," but you're charismatic, so...

[Patrick]

Trading on Jesus' name in order to become wealthy is one of the reasons He died for us?

What chapter and verse is that?

No, it's called being the CEO of a mega Christian non-profit organization.

[PUGalicious]

I just have one thing to add:

In the temple courts [Jesus] found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!" (John 2:14-16)

There will be a day of reckoning.

[bandnerd]

"Preacher needs a new watch! Don't ask no questions"

[Patrick]

The Bible also says you're to pay a man what he's worth.

[Martin]

the bible also says you're to pay a man what he's worth.

i agree, luke 10:7 states: '...the labourer is worthy of his hire...' christ said this when he sent out the seventy to deliver his message. however, this was done so that christ's disciples wouldn't be distracted from their work by also having to earn a living. in contrast, people like joel and craig richly profit from what they market as the word of god through their salaries and book deals so that they can drive luxury cars and live in executive mansions. we should pay our ministers so that they can focus on god's work, not so that they can live lives of luxury. -M

[Martin]

oops... i'm only now responding to this.

as for 'living like a king,' the pope only occupies a very small part of the vatican.

whether you're a king, the pope or joel osteen you can only live in one room at a time. the pope's papal pad is a seven room apartment, with chapel, roof-garden, staff quarters and medical facilities. granted, it's been made a bit less kingly since vatican ii... but as ruler of the catholic church he lives in facilities more like queen elizabeth ii than you or me. i'm not saying that's right or wrong... i'm just saying that's the way it is.

for someone who 'is the job,' in other words, he has no vacation, no time off, no recreation, just work, all day, every day, the support staff, and some of the amenities are justified.

the apostle peter had no posh papal palace... did he ever dream of living in that fashion? how about the rest of the catholic priesthood... they don't live like that... are they slackers?

in fact, the pope does not own an airplane

wait a sec... let me go get my violin. so the pope wants to fly someplace... some country's airline says, 'here you go pope, take our plane'.... that seems even better than owning your own. yet again, not saying that's wrong.

most of the vatican's treasures these days are on display to the public.

so are england's. are you saying elizabeth ii isn't a queen?


i respect the pontiff, and i'd never put him in the same category as these errr... gentlemen. i'm also aware of the current pope's efforts to 'trim the fat' so-to-speak, and i respect that. however, it's hard for me not to compare some of his trappings to that of these other 'leaders.' i agree that these comparisons can be largely reconciled, but to many the appearance of wrongdoing is sometimes as harmful as wrongdoing itself. -M

[Midtowner]

i respect the pontiff, and i'd never put him in the same category as these errr... gentlemen. i'm also aware of the current pope's efforts to 'trim the fat' so-to-speak, and i respect that. however, it's hard for me not to compare some of his trappings to that of these other 'leaders.' i agree that these comparisons can be largely reconciled, but to many the appearance of wrongdoing is sometimes as harmful as wrongdoing itself. -M
sendpm.gif

I'll agree with you on that point. I think the Pope would as well; hence his efforts to divest his role of some of its seemingly 'royal' trappings.

You say the Pope's living accomodations are posh in that he has that seven room apartment with the roof-garden, medical facilities, etc. I think all of those can be more-less attributed to the sacrifices of the office (much like Queen Elizabeth).

Consider that if the Pope goes to a hospital, visits a garden, or does anything in public, not only is he in mortal danger as he's probably the at the top of a lot of hit lists right now, he's also putting the public in danger. Personally, I don't want the Pope staying in the same hospital I'm in so that I get to be collateral damage when Mr. Dirka-Dirka-Mohammed-Jihad wants to make a point about political/religious oppression or something to taht effect.

As to most Priests living like Apostle Peter, one need look no further than south of the equator to find priests and nuns being routinely martyred, tortured, oppressed, etc. I'd say their living conditions in many if not most cases are comparable to Peter's if not worse. This extends up to the level of Cardinal. In some countries, no man of the cloth is safe. Many of these religious people consider this to be acceptable risk for spreading the faith.

Now, some of our men of the cloth north of the equator are just as bad as Osteen. I knew one local Priest in Edmond who actually employed a personal chef. We switched to a different church because of this guy's behavior. This church (St. John the Baptist) was not much unlike one of these more charismatic congregations. They still employ professional musicians, they still hire professional fund raisers, etc. I don't really agree with the way that church is run.

St. Joseph's downtown though? A nice fit for me

[Patrick]

I don't think God ever said earning lots of money was a sin. Hey, with all the money that church has, there's plenty to pay Joel the big bucks, and do tons of mission work.

[ChristianConservative]

What's sad is Joel Osteen is penalized for his success by having to pay a higher percentage of taxes than the middle and lower classes.

[bandnerd]

Do you feel that all people in that tax bracket are penalized, or just Joel Osteen and other people like him?

[ChristianConservative]

Do you feel that all people in that tax bracket are penalized, or just Joel Osteen and other people like him?

All people in that tax bracket are penalized. The Democrat's system is to progressively tax the wealthy more than the poor. Some rich people pay as much as 50% of their income in taxes. That isn't right, when a poor person is only paying 6%. It should be the same percentage across the board. Liberals penalize the rich for their success. Why should a person that has to work hard for his or her money, have to pay for welfare for the poor guy that made poor choices in life?