School fight uncalled for

[Keith]

News 9 reported this fight at John Marshall High School, which happened on Wednesday. Two officers were injured and 6 people were arrested....fighting over a chair. One student tried to incite a riot, once the altercation started.

This is ridiculous!!! A school fight between juveniles over a chair. I believe that the juveniles and the adult involved need to be punished to the full extent of the law. They assaulted police officers who were trying to break up the fight. I say, send the guilty ones to boot camp for a while. Then we will see if they think they are so tough.


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6 arrested in attack



Six students were arrested Wednesday after a fight in the John Marshall High School cafeteria.


Three were taken to the juvenile detention center and three were taken to the Community Intervention Center, a place for nonviolent juveniles, said Oklahoma City police Sgt. Gary Knight.

Students Kajoun Newman, 14, and Michael Starr, 19, were arrested on complaints of assault and battery on a police officer.

One juvenile was arrested on a complaint of inciting a riot, and the others were taken into custody on disorderly conduct complaints.

The fight started about 12:05 p.m. when there was an argument between two students over a chair, Knight said.

Sgt. Willie Edwards, the school's campus resource officer, was kicked and hit with a student's fist and a soft drink during the altercation, police said.

A student spit in Sgt. Ron Northcutt's face as officers tried to break up the fight, Knight said.

[Joe Schmoe]

Man, talk about a problem with authority...

Yeah, I agree, do we have bootcamps for kids in Oklahoma? If the school lets this go, then the cops may have to shoot one of those little high schoolers in a few years.

Bad news. Makes me think that there was already a problem with violence & intimidation in this school, otherwise this fight would not have broken out in the first place. Then when the police stepped in, the kids thought that whacking the cops would work. Man, don't they know that cops have lots of reinforcements?

[mranderson]

we could give them a taste of big Mac for a month or two. Or better yet, let Bubba and the sisters get their hooks on them in Lexington.

I bet THAT would straighten the little felons out.

[ClipedWingAngel]

It starts at a young age. My son goes to LaPetite Academy day care in Yukon. He was kneed in the back by an older boy about 11. He was twice my son's height and weight. When I complained to the director that a bully just beat up my son after I witnessed him bullying other kids she called one of the counselors to bring the child in. He was her son! She later complained to me with arrogance and attitude that her son "is not a bully, he is just a boy". They get the attitudes from their parents. Of course, I havent taken my son back to the place for fear of retaliation. They all live here in the neighborhood.

I agree, punish to the full extent of the law. If they cant respect authority now, they wont later.
Angel

[Patrick]

Well if they paid these daycare employees more maybe we'd get better quality workers. My mother worked in several daycares over a course of about 8 years. Most of them were church daycares. You wouldn't believe some of the stuff that goes on behind the scenes. Anyways, you jus tdon't get much when you're paying minimum wage. It's unfortunate.

[Joe Schmoe]

Yeah, I think its funny that the public puts so much of their safety, food, & children in the hands of people who they think are only worth mininum wage.

Slaves uesd to take care of the needs of everyday life. They were economical.

Now they don't have chains, we just don't pay them much.

But then again, I couldn't afford a hamburger if we paid the cook & the waiters $20 an hour.

[mranderson]

"But then again, I couldn't afford a hamburger if we paid the cook & the waiters $20 an hour."

Here is a thought. If we paid people a living wage and treated them with the respect we demand for ourselves, then maybe we would get higher quality service, thus increasing customer base and keeping product cost down.

Of course, the public must also understand, respect is a two way street. Treat the employee (the people waiting on you) rudely, then they have the right to do the same to you. It is called the golden rule.

[Midtowner]

Clippedwing -- report that daycare to DHS.

They won't agree that it's just boys being boys.

[Midtowner]

Yeah, I think its funny that the public puts so much of their safety, food, & children in the hands of people who they think are only worth mininum wage.

Slaves uesd to take care of the needs of everyday life. They were economical.

Now they don't have chains, we just don't pay them much.

But then again, I couldn't afford a hamburger if we paid the cook & the waiters $20 an hour.

I believe that it is each individual's own responsibility to get an education and provide for themselves. If they aren't able to meet that obligation, they have no one to blame but themselves.

With all the opportunites available -- especially to economically disadvantaged folks, I have little pity for anyone that turns down the opportunity to have a good education.

Even John Marshal produces National Merit Scholars.

If you choose to cook fries and burgers and go home and spend your $8.00 paycheck on something to fill your bong, that's your own choice. You could also take grants (aka free government money) and learn a trade. There's also plenty of opportunity to attend the Job Corps program out in Guthrie.

In my mind, if the best you can do is shovel cow flesh onto a bun for the clown then you deserve to be rewarded the paycheck that you earned. The free market does a great job of determining the worth of an individaul and compensating them in a manner that corresponds with their contribution.

I have a big problem with folks saying fry cooks deserve $20.00/hr. Heck though, if you count how the government subsidizes their lives through social programs, they probably cost far more than $20/hr on a 40 hr work week.

In saying that, I guess I could support a high minimum wage like that if social programs were significantly cut back in such a manner that we as a nation broke even on it. God, that'd be some tough math.

But do you have any belief that such a person who has not shown an enough personal responsibility to do something to enhance themselves is going to enhance themselves when given the freedom to spend their money frivilously and irresponsibly? It's a real clash of political dogmas, isn't it? Raises some interesting questions especially for those of us that truly claim to be conservatives.

I'm off on a rant, but I think it's good stuff.

A conservative usually says that individuals are better stewards of their own money than the government is... To say otherwise, I believe is irreconcilable to the conservative philosophy.

However, I don't know if you'd get anyone, probably not even Jerry Fallwell to go on the record saying a $20/hr minimum wage in trade for a cut in social services would be a good idea.

There's definitely some philosophical conflict on that matter to me.

[mranderson]

I think the $20.00 per hour was either in jest or sarcastic and not meant to be serious.

Minimum wage is too low for anyone. Pay them a minimum of $8.00 per hour. Really, $10 is better. Plus mandate employer paid insurance or start a universal insurance plan (not welfare, one everyone qualifies for). Or compromise and let everyone who is between jobs or has an employer too stingy to provide insurance to have universal healthcare. Everyone deserves proper health care.

As I said, if you pay an employee a living wage, give them good benefits, and treat them with the respect you demand for yourself, that employee will perform better, treat people better, and be with you for the long term.

Yes. Some will still rebel and some will still treat everyone rudely, thus taking advantage of you. However, most people will be good employees.

By treating people this way, and giving them reasonable time for their families, most will be able to stop these fights.

When kids are set aside and not given the attention they need, they rebel. So do people in the working world who are treated like they came off a slave ship. Most employers think of their staff as investments and not humans. They pay themselves well and care less about the welfare of the staff. One reason for all this hostility we see.

[ClipedWingAngel]

I think we are way off into the economics and missing the moral responsibility that parents truly bear. I come from an upbringing where quality time for each child no matter how many there were at home was the rule. We sat together at dinner and bad manners, language were not permitted. The moral code of right and wrong was instilled from young and respect for authority. We were also taught to question authority and that freedom of speech belonged to us all regardless of age as long as it is done respectfully. The parents of these children are probably or have been filling their bong and even sharing it wtih their children. They mostlikely live in a lawless family environment with aggression, vulgarity and lack of morality. This is how these children go on to express themselves in the outside world. Unfortunately we (responsible law abiding parents) suffer the consequences of the few who sometimes run a mock.

I've discussed the day care issue with a few parents and they all encouraged me to report it to the La Petite Corporate office and to DHS.
Reggie

[Midtowner]

I think the $20.00 per hour was either in jest or sarcastic and not meant to be serious.

Minimum wage is too low for anyone. Pay them a minimum of $8.00 per hour. Really, $10 is better. Plus mandate employer paid insurance or start a universal insurance plan (not welfare, one everyone qualifies for). Or compromise and let everyone who is between jobs or has an employer too stingy to provide insurance to have universal healthcare. Everyone deserves proper health care.

As I said, if you pay an employee a living wage, give them good benefits, and treat them with the respect you demand for yourself, that employee will perform better, treat people better, and be with you for the long term.

Yes. Some will still rebel and some will still treat everyone rudely, thus taking advantage of you. However, most people will be good employees.

By treating people this way, and giving them reasonable time for their families, most will be able to stop these fights.

When kids are set aside and not given the attention they need, they rebel. So do people in the working world who are treated like they came off a slave ship. Most employers think of their staff as investments and not humans. They pay themselves well and care less about the welfare of the staff. One reason for all this hostility we see.

Anderson, whatever it is, in this world and this growing economy, you'll get paid what you're worth. You just have to be resourceful in finding the right job and dedicated enough to improving your skillset to keep yourself marketable.

If I'm a Paralegal who lists on my resume that I'm a real pro with an IBM selectric but can't and won't use a computer, I'm not going to get a job in the field I want to work in. Even people who have educations must keep their skills updated.

If someone is a fry cook, that's because they've chosen that life.

If we raise minimum wages and require companies to pay benefits, do not delude yourself. Your $2.99 hamburger will suddenly be $7.00 or so. We will have massive inflation, the market will readjust and those folks will be just as poorly off (if not worse since companies will do all they can to cut back on the number of people they have) than they were before.

I don't know very many companies that actually pay minimum wage anyhow unless there is an alternative means of compensation.

[mranderson]

Not neccessarily. Have you ever heard of supply and demand?

If a company has a large client base, they can pay higher wages and have low product cost. Plus, read what I am saying, not just the words.

My dad, at his peak, had about two or so thousand employees nationwide. He paid VERY high wages, gave everyone insurance AT HIS EXPENSE, THEY PAID ZERO, and more. The employee's kids got cars for graduation from High School, insentives for college (in fact, some had college paid out of my dad's own pocket), and more. The employees were family. They were flown at company expense to Oklahoma City for a company Christmas party, given nice bonuses and more. We even had a home mortgage plan interest free.

In the 30 year history of the company, he fired only one man. The man had been charged with insider trading. Plus, NOT ONE employee resigned. Some died, many retired. When the company was sold, dad paid every dime of their retirement in a severance check when the new owner hosed my dad by cutting jobs. It was in the contract that anyone who wanted a job had one.

Once dad hired you, you had a job for life. His costs were the lowest in the industry and never did he have to council an employee for rudeness.

Every employee kid except for one led valuble lives. The one did time. Dad made every employee spend time with their families. If an employee needed to go to a kid's event, dad made sure they went. Even if he had to close the place early. And.. WITH PAY.

If you treat your staff well and pay them well, it shows. It increases business, therefore, your retail prices stay low and competitive. And, your kids, for the most part, turn out to be honorable people anyone can be proud of. Not rebelious criminals.

[Midtowner]

Sounds a lot like a modern-day Henry Ford. Sounds like your dad was a great guy.

It sounds like he was involved in some kind of professional business though. Is it safe to guess that the type of business required some sort of skill set obtained through a liberal arts based education? Or at least some type of skill?

Typically when you're talking about skilled labor, you're talking about people who already have the discipline to better themselves.

What I'm talking about here is unskilled labor -- typically service. Like Wal Mart. Whether you pay a Wally World Associate $20.00 or $8.00, they'll probably do the same type of work. They'll most likely still show up late and be just as rude to customers.

I don't know what type of work your father's firm did, but I'm guessing it doesn't compare.

[mranderson]

My dad owned the first stock brokerage firm in South Oklahoma City. He started with one small office in a building we still own, and bulit the business to 52 locations all over the United States. It was the largest over the counter firm in the United States by volume.

He based his idea on one simple concept. Treat people the way you want to be treated and make sure they could feed their families and they will be the best in their craft. By the way. Dad is still alive. Not doing well, but alive. I do speak of him in the past tense partly due to the fact he is no longer in business. Plus, we are preparing for his departure in a way we feel will make it easier.

I strongly believe in the case you cite, which is no matter what you pay someone, they will still perform as well or as bad. I disagree. Money modivates people. So does respect. In fact, I turned down a job once because the guy made me feel like I was in the process of an anal exam. This during the interview. This told me he would not treat me well.

I have been around too many people, on both sides of the desk, to believe what the working class believes. You are entitled to your opinion, and most times I respect that, as is the case here. However, from a business persons point of view, you are totally incorrect. The better the pay, the better performance, therefore, more clients enabling the business to still have lower prices.

Remember. Wages are tax deductable. They are business expenses. Attorneys fees from the rebelious youths are not.

[Joe Schmoe]

"What I'm talking about here is unskilled labor -- typically service. Like Wal Mart. Whether you pay a Wally World Associate $20.00 or $8.00, they'll probably do the same type of work. They'll most likely still show up late and be just as rude to customers. "

Napoleon should try to have have a little more respect for the underlings.

"I believe that it is each individual's own responsibility to get an education and provide for themselves. If they aren't able to meet that obligation, they have no one to blame but themselves.

With all the opportunites available -- especially to economically disadvantaged folks, I have little pity for anyone that turns down the opportunity to have a good education."

Despite not being you, they can still be good, hard working, smart people.

You obviously haven't lived very much, or have been privileged in ways that you don't appreciate.

Hubris is an unfortunate side effect of youth, but empathy & respect can come with experience if you pay attention.

[Midtowner]

rant

I'm afraid that we live in a capitalist system. Not communist, not socialist. People here are rightly paid according to their contribution to society.

It is possible -- and there are MANY programs available for those of lower socioeconomic standing to go to college. One of my fraternity brothers back in college paid his fraternity dues, tuition and expenses with government grants. His food was paid for by food stamps! He grew up with an absentee father and a druggie for a mother. Please do not tell me that anyone's situation is hopeless and they 'deserve' jack-**** from me.

I didn't question whether someone was "good". Sure, you can be a good person that CHOOSES to work for $8.00/hr or less. That's your choice. If you want to change your situation, take matters into your own hands and go to Vo-Tech. If someone chooses to work at Wal-Mart or McDonalds, dude, that's not on me. That's their choice. That's how they choose to provide for their family. If they want to scrape by on that income, so be it. Do I owe them a better life because I worked my butt off to get an education? I think not.

Maybe in the Soviet Union, but not here.

My point is that the government is very much in the business of giving hands up to people. I don't think it should be in the business of giving hand outs to people who don't do anything to deserve them beyond look pathetic. Not letting the free market determine wages is a slap in the face to anyone that's gone out and bettered themselves.

Before you go off saying that I had a priviliged lifestyle.. well hell.. maybe I did. I worked 2 jobs through most of my college education, I played violin in the UCO orchestra for a partial scholarship, I made my grades, I did my time, now I reap the rewards of those choices.

My next step is to get myself into about 6 figures of student debt and get a JD. I'll be damned if anyone who didn't do any of that stuff thinks I'll be making too much money then. If they don't like it, they can go back to school.

/rant

[Joe Schmoe]

How sad.

Calm down son, & step away from the rant. It's keeping you from thinking. Listen to me carefully & you can be helped. You aren't even on the issue at hand, but instead, just spouting irrelevant ideology.

Nobody said a thing against capitalism! No one mentioned communism, socialism or any other leftwing 'ism. No one said anything about the non existent Soviet Union! Kneejerk rants are clouding your mind.

No one wants you to apologize for how much money you make.

Arguing off on an absurd red herring tangent is a good debate trick, did you do that on purpose, or is it just a sloppy habit?



"Please do not tell me that anyone's situation is hopeless and they 'deserve' jack-**** from me. "

All MrAnderson & I were talking about was respect for people who are beneath you. Treat the underclass right & they work better. Duh. What they deserve from you is respect, but that seems to damage your political views.

Hmm, odd.

I'm not here to be your nemesis, but when you brush aside large swaths of the public with glib rehetoric, then you leave yourself open for a recreational spanking.

"Before you go off saying that I had a privileged lifestyle.. well hell.. maybe I did. I worked 2 jobs through most of my college education, I played vio... blah blah blah"

Are you actually saying that you have more success just because you think you worked harder? You actually think that you are smarter & a harder worker than everyone who has less than you? Economic Darwinism helps you to feel superior & the hubris of youth has made you think that you are standing on your own. Heh, heh. You are where you are, because of everyone & every event that has lead up to you. You are standing on the shoulders of everyone who came before you.

I suspect that there may even be a day laborer or two in your family tree...

"I don't think it (the government) should be in the business of giving hand outs to people who don't do anything to deserve them beyond look pathetic. Not letting the free market determine wages is a slap in the face to anyone that's gone out and bettered themselves."

No one said anything about handouts, & the fabled 'freemarket determination of wages' went out decades before the Soviet Union. They're are both long gone. "Straw men" that have nothing to do with the trail of the discussion.

It seems as though I accidently said some things that set off your ideology button & away you go on a tangent. The remark about $20 an hour for a burger flipper wasn't serious. MrAnderson tried to tell you that, but you were already off on your Rush Limbaugh wannabe ideology, then it made little difference what anyone else was talking about.

We tried to pull you back into the actual coversation, but then you go off ranting something about coummunisim & playing the violin in college. You are a case. Not everything can be categorised as conservative or liberal. Some things are just decency when you realise that in God's eyes, we are all equal. Compassion & empathy are not fuzzy feel-good liberal ideas. Only you could think that mrAnderson is a liberal.

Both he & I have seen more success & failure than even you, so maybe we have something to say that is not part of your ideology, but still isn't commie pinko propaganda.

I'm not saying that you are stupid, just mentally lazy. I hate to see that in our youth.

"People pretending to be superior just makes it so much harder for those of us who really are." - Hyacinth Bucket

We'll try to stay out of your way on your meteroic rise to the tippy top.

[Midtowner]

Did I say that I didn't believe people should be treated decently? Where did I say that?

mranderson used his father's company -- a stock brokerage company to show that day laborors deserve better treatment. He gave an accurate example in a business where turnover and hiring new employees is probably something that is very costly. It doesn't even remotely compare to flipping burgers -- a job where the only requirement is a pulse and training consists of watching videos.

Please do not confuse compassion and laws that require "compassion". They are absolutely not the same things.

I didn't come from huge money. No inheritance or trust fund for me. If I want to have the good life, I have to work my butt off for it. And yeah, I feel it's my right to be proud of my accomplishments.

And I don't think it's just intelligence and hard work that lead to socioeconomic upward mobility. A lot of that is also ambition -- knowing what you want and then pursuing it.

A great example of this can be found in the area just north of Classen and 23rd street. What you have here are people that came from a Communist country -- mostly on boats. They came to Oklahoma City with no assetts. Through hard work and ambition, they've created businesses and many are very successful. The current proprietor of the Jimmy's Egg restaurants around town comes to mind. Years ago, he was a penniless immigrant. Now, he cuts himself one check per year for 1 million dollars and puts everything else back into his businesses. Not bad, eh?

As for the non-existance of the free market determination of wages, why do you not think that this is a reality? The false example that many give of people working for minimum wage really doesn't exist anymore. Wal Mart employees start at over $7.00/hr and so do fry cooks. Off-hand, I can't think of a single job that makes minimum wage. Most jobs do pay a "living wage". If they don't, they offer alternative opportunities for compensation. Otherwise, they'd have a tough time finding employees. Businesses have to offer enough to at least put people in those apron thingies.

But the bottom line is that I don't "disrespect" anyone. Hell, I'm about the nicest guy you'll ever meet. Very polite, chivalrous even. In the times when I was a supervisor, I was even an agreeable guy there -- a believer in a team mentality and managing by example.

Am I superior? God no. Have a made better choices than many when it comes to my potential future economic prosperity? From where I'm sitting, that's fairly evident.

The bottom line is that life presents us with enough opportunities simply because we're Americans that for people to make excuses about why they are where they are almost comical. Tell that to the person who has $140,000 of student debt getting through med school. Tell that to the fella that owns Jimmy's Egg. They'll ask you whether or not you'd like some cheese with that whine?

In God's eyes we are equal. In the IRS's, I'm sorry to say, we're not

[ClipedWingAngel]

OMG this is sooo out of control. I think we need to revisit the thread of this topic which originally was about a school fight and I happened to insert how aggressive behavior starts at home. I put an example about my son at day care and somehow we are into politics and then some.

Anyway, back to the main issue on this thread, BULLIES are raised and born from the parents by example. We need to teach our children non hate words to fend off bullies instead of words that are full hate, are biased and put others down.

[mranderson]

"mranderson used his father's company -- a stock brokerage company to show that day laborors deserve better treatment. He gave an accurate example in a business where turnover and hiring new employees is probably something that is very costly. It doesn't even remotely compare to flipping burgers -- a job where the only requirement is a pulse and training consists of watching videos. "

Yes. I cited my dad's business. However, it does not matter if you are Jethro Bodine who "gradiated" the sixth grade or if you have 100 doctorates. Staff still performs better when they are paid a living wage and treated like a human being insted of like an investment to make the owner wealthier. Yes. There are exceptions. There will always be the slacker who under performs no matter what you do. However, the point I am making is simple. Better wages and better treatement will create a better shopping environment for the consumer, who will in turn spend more money creating the opportunity to keep costs down. Volume is the key. Yes, some employers will take advantage of that and line their pockets with the profits. Yhose, however, are the ones who care only about the profit and not the welfare of their staff.

And Angel. This is somewhat related to the topic, although yes, you are technically correct. By being treated well with a living wage, and being told by your employer to spend quality time with your family because they are more important, will send that bully's parents a lesson. That bully is wanting attention and the only way he or she knows how to get it is by bullying others. By being there for the kids and teaching them and being a guide, in most cases, will cause the bully to stop. The ones who do not learn are the ones the "sisters" get to "play with" in the joint.

[Midtowner]

mranderson, your argument is pure conjecture. I can think of MANY companies off-hand that pay $7-$8/hr. Take Wal-Mart. Hell, they acknowledge the fact that they pay so low to the point that there are actually in-store seminars to teach their employees about how to sign up for welfare programs to supplement their incomes!

Wal-Mart, McDonalds, etc. all pay their employees pretty low. Sure, they have huge turnover. Go back to your management theory textbooks from college and look up guys like Henri Fayol and the Scientific Management Theory (that deals mostly with time and motion studies). Look up the "Type X" management style. There are many that believe that some employees by nature are lazy and need constant direction in order to perform. They are treated more like parts to a machine than actual people. Now, look at Wal-Mart. Each employee is given a very specific task by management -- sweeping floors, stocking shelves, ringing things up at the cash register. They perform these jobs as if they are parts in a large machine. The great thing is that these parts are easily interchangable. You just slap on a blue apron, do what you're told and you can be a Wal-Mart employee!

Same goes for McDonalds. Watch the people behind the counter. Their jobs are all VERY specific. They have those kitchens laid out so that parts of the machine can easily be inserted, given a task and expected to perform. There is one supervisor that oversees the process, and that's it. After signing your W-4's you can be a fully functional McDonalds employee with little/no training! Does that deserve a lot of money? If the people don't want the job, they won't take it. There are a myriad of options out there available.

And as far as bullies go, it has to do with schools AND families. When it comes to kids, the saying that "one bad apple spoils the barrell is so true". The thing that's lacking these days in schools is respect. Kids don't have any respect for authority figures. It's not always because of their parents.

What could the solution be? A return of corporal punishment? Boot camps for disrespectful kids? Who knows? Whatever the changes are, they have to be widespread. I don't think there's anything inherently different with kids these days, I think that we're just quicker to give up on them.

[mranderson]

"Wal-Mart, McDonalds, etc. all pay their employees pretty low. Sure, they have huge turnover. Go back to your management theory textbooks from college and look up guys like Henri Fayol and the Scientific Management Theory (that deals mostly with time and motion studies). Look up the "Type X" management style. There are many that believe that some employees by nature are lazy and need constant direction in order to perform. They are treated more like parts to a machine than actual people. Now, look at Wal-Mart. Each employee is given a very specific task by management -- sweeping floors, stocking shelves, ringing things up at the cash register. They perform these jobs as if they are parts in a large machine. The great thing is that these parts are easily interchangable. You just slap on a blue apron, do what you're told and you can be a Wal-Mart employee!

Same goes for McDonalds. Watch the people behind the counter. Their jobs are all VERY specific. They have those kitchens laid out so that parts of the machine can easily be inserted, given a task and expected to perform. There is one supervisor that oversees the process, and that's it. After signing your W-4's you can be a fully functional McDonalds employee with little/no training! Does that deserve a lot of money? If the people don't want the job, they won't take it. There are a myriad of options out there available. "

Funny how the only examples you can cite are companies known for bad service. I rest my case... Enough said... We need to move on...

[Midtowner]

Yet in spite of the bad service, those are the two most successful companies in their fields.

So it would seem for them, paying those people more wouldn't yield any rewards.

[mranderson]

You will not change what I already know as fact, so I suggest ending this now.

I have been around for nearly 50 years, son. How long have YOU been around? (retorical question meaning no answer needed). Think about that. Age means wisdom. Experience is wisdom.