Century Center or Baum Building?

[Patrick]

Which building do you like better? Unfortunately, we can't bring the Baum Building back, because Century Center is now in its place. What a shame.

Thanks to Doug Loudenback for the great pics. Please check out his site, www.dougloudenback.com.

[Patrick]

I love Doug's website, but sometimes I hate going on there because it makes me almost want to cry. Sure, we lost some dumps in the 60's and 70's, but we also lost some real treasures. Could you imagine how awesome it would be to have the Huckin's Hotel back, directly north of the Renaissance?

[John]

My favorite building in downtown OKC. Too bad I was never alive to see it.

I could deal with Robinson being one way from Main to Sheridan. Heck, it's one way through all of downtown, what's the use of that block being two-way?

I'll rebuild something downtown paying homage to the Baum building in the future. All I need is the money and the land!

[writerranger]

What a building. I remember going downtown as a kid and marveling at all those old buildings. I watched them tear down the Warner Theater (and the Criterion, Midwest and Cooper), many of the other buildings, and of course - the big demolition of the old Biltmore Hotel (later a Sheraton).

I have many paper materials (brochures, glossy booklets, etc.) extolling the virtues of the Pei Plan. I also have an old "Orbit Magazine," a Gaylord produced insert for the Sunday Oklahoman, that shows a future rendering of the Myriad Gardens along with a fictionalized account of a Grandpa taking his grandson to the Myriad Gardens some distant day in the future.

There was good, there was bad. But mostly I was very unhappy with Urban Renewal of the 60s and 70s.

-----

[Doug Loudenback]

Thanks for the nice comments, Patrick. I confess to having "put down" the downtown Okc stuff since having been infected with the Hornets virus, but I'll get back to it in the months ahead, at least until October!

And, writerranger, thanks for your comment, above, about the Warner Theater. Although born in Okc, I didn't grow up here and through high school only came to Okc for occasional trips ... I LOVED to go to the Okc downtown theaters, particularly the Midwest with its multiple balconies. But, I didn't know the "Warner Theater" existed. Your comment prompted me to do a little research this morning and I learned some things that you probably already knew. I had seen mentions of a "Warner Theater" here and there but I hadn't followed through to pin it down before reading your comment. I hadn't realized that the Overholser Opera House, later the Orpheum, BECAME the Warner Theater, nor did I realize that the Warner Theater was a Cinerama theater for a time. Here's what I found this morning:

From http://cinematreasures.org/theater/12888/

by "cactusjack"

Opened in 1903 as OVERHOLSER OPERA HOUSE, this was a big time stage show playhouse. Keith-Albee took over in 1921, comissioned John Eberson to produce a complete Adamesque renovation. Renamed ORPHEUM, it began presenting Interstate Vaudeville acts. When Warner Bros. gained control in 1928 they gave the interior and marquee a spruce up, changed the name to WARNER and transformed it into a combo film/stage show venue. 1952 saw another modernization when it began new life as WARNER'S CINERAMA. Razed 1964.

[another post by "cactusjack"]

When the Overholser opened in 1903 it had three shallow balconies, and four tiers of box seats, with a total seating capacity of 2400. John Eberson's 1920 Adamesque remodel for Kieth Albee replaced the three balconies with one long, steeply sloped, cantilever balcony which reduced seating to 2200. Warner Brothers gained control in 1928 and installed new, wider chairs, and expanded leg room between seats, which caused a reduction of 200 chairs. Cinerama installation resulted in an even further reduced capacity.

Here's an image I'd not seen before found at http://cinerama.topcities.com/warnerok.htm showing show the screen conversation to a Cinerama format but also showing something of the ceiling and "feel":


I'll add this additional info to my "downtown Okc theaters" page at http://www.dougloudenback.com/downto...e/1.movies.htm , eventually.

I'd like to meet "cactusjack" ... he really seems to know his downtown OKC movies stuff, judging by his posts in many places at http://cinematreasures.org/location/...=181&state=37/

And, DOWNTOWNGUY, if you read this, note that a section of my movies page reads,

Anyway, to the extent that I have them, enjoy the movies! And, here's a nice link on the downtown movie industry from The Downtown Guy.

The "bold" part is a link there to http://downtownguy.blogspot.com/2004/08/film-row.html which no longer exists.

Unfortunately, I don't have the text of your original article ... can you repost here, or point me to an archive link, if it exists? It was a very nice article!

[Patrick]

Since some of you guys lived in the 60's and 70's maybe you can help me understand this better. What was the overall purpose of Urban Renewal? Why did we even develop such a group? It seems from everything I read that all Urban Renewal did was destroy some of OKC's most fabulous architectural treasures. At the time the buildings were destroyed was downtown deteriorating? Was Urban Renewal designed with hopes to rebirth a duying downtown? Or did Urban Renewal itself kill downtown as we once knew it?
In the 60's and 70's was retail generally leaving downtown for the burbs and leaving empty historic buildings behind?

Since I obviously wasn't around in the 60's it's hard to understand exactly what the purpose of Urban Renewal was.

Any of you guys ever in the old Biltmore Hotel? I'd be curious to know how it looked inside. Also, I didn't realize it was a Sheraton. So did the Sheraton Century Center replace the old hotel?

I can see destroying some of the buildings downtown that weren't so historically significant, but I think destroying buildings like the old John Brown's, Huckin's Hotel, Biltmore, Criterion Theater, and so on was crazy. Were these buildings deteriorating when they were marked for destruction? Again, it's hard for me to understand why OCURA chose to destroy these buildings.

Were the theaters losing momentum to up and coming multi-screen complexes in the burbs? Why did we lose all of this entertainment downtown.


Seems almost like today we're simply trying to reverse what happened in the 60's and 70's. Only it's tough trying to put back what we so nicely destroyed. I must say, Harkins Theatres just doesn't even come close to the Criterion or some of the other theaters.

Strange that New York City and other cities back east can preserve their historic downtowns, but we have such a tough time here.

[Midtowner]

Urban Renewal -- a brilliant devise to take money from the taxpayers and give it to members of an organization called the Oklahoma Industry Authority and their pals.

-- that about right?

[John]

Think about Field of Dreams and "If you build it, they will come", except with Urban Renewal, it was "If you tear it down, they will build".

The problem was, the 'voice' in UR was about as real as the Wizard that Dorothy, the Scarecrow, Tin Man, and Lion went to see.

[Patrick]

So, correct me I'm wrong, but I'm guessing with public interest moving out to the burbs, many of the theaters, hotels, etc. downtown were losing momentum?
One of the links Doug has on his site takes you to a pic of the Criterion in 1972.....looked pretty run down at that time.

[Midtowner]

Think about Field of Dreams and "If you build it, they will come", except with Urban Renewal, it was "If you tear it down, they will build".

The problem was, the 'voice' in UR was about as real as the Wizard that Dorothy, the Scarecrow, Tin Man, and Lion went to see.

The voice had a lot in common with those characters... no brain, no heart and no courage.

[Patrick]

I guess the point I'm trying to make....take the Belle Isle Power Plant for instance. Obviously, there was justification for tearing it down. It hadn't been used for years, and was deteriorating. I'm guessing this was happening downtown and thus the need for Urban Renewal. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Doug Loudenback]

So, correct me I'm wrong, but I'm guessing with public interest moving out to the burbs, many of the theaters, hotels, etc. downtown were losing momentum?
One of the links Doug has on his site takes you to a pic of the Criterion in 1972.....looked pretty run down at that time.

I think you hit the nail on the head, Patrick. Downtown was "going down" ... shopping malls were more inviting than coming downtown and downtown retail was suffering. While it was once great to go downtown to John A. Browns, Rothschilds, Streets, and many others, as well as the great old movie houses, people were voting with their feet to go to the malls, etc., which were more convenient. Quoting from dustbury at http://www.dustbury.com/vent/vent413.html

By the early 1960s, the city had grown to over six hundred square miles, and downtown, for many residents, was a long way to go for nothing; it was in 1961 that the Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority was first convened, and in 1964 urban architect I. M. Pei was asked to come up with a plan to save downtown. Pei's plan was bold and beautiful, but it also called for a tremendous amount of demolition, and once it was completed and people were still staying away from downtown in droves, city leaders started wondering if maybe they shouldn't have put more emphasis on preservation.

I have to disagree a little with the above ... in substance, the Pei Plan was never completed ... the destruction part, yes, but the rebuilding part, no. It got a good start with Leadership Square, the Oklahoma Tower, the Corporate Tower, the Myriad Gardens, the Myriad Convention Center, and some other stuff, but that all development got interrupted, and in fact, got stopped in its tracks.

It might have continued to work, but for the interruption. The big oil bust which came in the midst of the hoped-for rejuvenation of downtown ... banks going under (well, maybe not all "under" but certainly "bust"), including, of course, the 1st of the dominos, Penn Square Bank, and later including the state's largest bank, 1st National. The building below was intended to be the new home of Penn Square Bank, started before its 1982 collapse. The building would be completed in 1984, but it would never BE the Penn Square Bank:



As quoted from http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...1/ai_n10155554

Twenty years ago this month [July 2002], the U.S. Comptroller of the Currency closed Penn Square Bank in Oklahoma City, heralding the end of the oil boom and the beginning of the toughest economic conditions in Oklahoma since the Great Depression.

I guess you already know that a "Galleria" retail shopping mall was planned in the space which only became a parking lot (the "Galleria Parking") but, with the collapse of the oil and banking industries, it would be left to later days (the ones we've been living in for about the past 10-15 years) to see things get turned around, largely due to MAPS, and, I would say, the Spaghetti Warehouse (from Dallas) putting its toe into Bricktown in the late 1980s, at a time when it was the only one doing so) into Bricktown.

We are living in the history of all of these events, both the good, the bad, and the ugly, and, hopefully, we'll be troubled with no more "interruptions" like the oil bust and Penn Square Bank kind of stuff.

[John]

I never knew about The Tower being built for Penn Square Bank.

I can't picture the tower having the pig logo on it, though!

[Patrick]

Thanks Doug for the info. I figured there was good justification for the efforts of OCURA.

As much as we like to remember downtown for what it was back in the 30's thru 60's, truth is it was in decline in the late 60's, early 70's. I suppose OCURA's attempt was to clean up the mess and try to restore downtown to some extent. Unfortunately, the oil bust didn't work in their favor.

It would've been nice to see renovations of the declining buildings downtown, but one has to remember...this is Oklahoma, and very seldom do we renovate. For the most part, we build something, use it for a few years, and then replace it with something new. We seem to have a very disposable mindset here.

[Patrick]

Okay, please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the red piggy bank logo belong to Sooner Federal Savings and Loan, at 50 Penn Place?

[Doug Loudenback]

No, John, you're thinking (I suppose, because of the "Pig" reference the building on the SE corner of Penn & NW Highway ... which DID have a pig on top of it when it was some savings & loan building, 50 Penn Place I think is the name) ... the picture I posted above is "The Tower" roughly at Classen & I-44

[Patrick]

Hey Doug, it was Sooner Federal Savings and Loan. I finally figured it out. Check my post #15 above.

[Doug Loudenback]

Okay, please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the red piggy bank logo belong to Sooner Federal Savings and Loan, at 50 Penn Place?

Yessss ... thanks for jogging my memory. Sooner Federal S&L ... with the pig on top!:tweeted:

[John]

That's right. For some reason I thought the pig was tied into Penn Square Bank, and Sooner S&L just re-used the logo.

[Patrick]

Seems like everyone gets that confused, including myself. Probably because both banks were shut down by the FDIC about the same time, and everyone remembers the red pig being taken down off the top of 50 Penn Place.

By the way, Sooner Federal, after being shut down, has returned. Check this out:

http://www.sooner-federal.com/

[Doug Loudenback]

This has been a fun thread! Makes me want to get obsessed about something besides the Hornets (again)!

[Patrick]

Whoops, I was wrong on that. I guess Sooner Federal didn't close until 1991.

[John]

This has been a fun thread! Makes me want to get obsessed about something besides the Hornets (again)!

This nostalgia type stuff is what brought me here. I love this stuff.

[Doug Loudenback]

Urban Renewal -- a brilliant devise to take money from the taxpayers and give it to members of an organization called the Oklahoma Industry Authority and their pals.

-- that about right?

You are MUCH to young to be such a cynic, Midtowner! :stars:

[Patrick]

This nostalgia type stuff is what brought me here. I love this stuff.

You need to go hang out on Doug's site for awhile!