National Rail Network

[Plutonic Panda]

This is intended to cover both aspect of freight and passenger rail travel across the country.

As I expected, California has essentially canceled its plans for HSR with Newsom claiming he is scaling down the project to just the Valley which I am even skeptical of that happening. Absolutely no point in that. To the CA HSR train, I say good riddance! Money much better spent in expanding freeways and inner city mass transit. If Texas is able to build their HSR network, that will be another blow from Texas to CA however I am a bit skeptical of Texas's network for much different reasons than California's. I am not anti-HSR by any means, but the costs of over 100 billion are asinine.

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/20...Lr6odlYhpOQfJU

[Plutonic Panda]

BTW, here is another article about a plan to restore the rail network to its "glory" days. I figured there are a few posters here who might enjoy this article if you haven't read it! Some of this seems nice, but I am not holding my breath. I plan on making a Florida trip soon to visit some family and will be checking out their recent Brightline(though they re-branded it) train which I hear is fantastic. Hopefully Oklahoma's new governor can get on the ball with rail transit in Oklahoma and make some use of the sitting I-244 rail bridge built in Tulsa.

https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/opinio...-u-s-railroads

[Plutonic Panda]

To add, I will admit, I would have liked to see the project built in some ways. It was more than just a bullet train. Rebuilding and in some cases expansions of freeways(Primarily CA-99), complete grade separation of all freight lines separate from HSR, with upgrades of various other passenger rail lines like Caltrain(SF Bay Area) electrification. A lot of that could still happen are good projects, but I propose some major reform on how we build our infrastructure and ways to reduce costs without sacrificing quality which surely can be done as other modern and developed countries build infrastructure for a fraction of the price we can.

[Plutonic Panda]

Take for example the 710 Gap in San Gabriel Valley which LA Metro board foolishly canceled... 11 billion dollar estimate for a 4 mile, 8 lane tunnel.

Compare that to this:



A 20 mile undersea tunnel that will be built for around 3-4 billion in Norway. This tunnel will have multiple completely subterranean interchanges. There is something wrong with this picture. I have tons of other examples of rail and road projects around the world, in modern societies just like the US, that somehow can build infrastructure for much less than we do. Admittedly, this area of expertise is where I am ignorant and will likely spend more time this year learning more about.

[OKC Guy]

To illistrate how large states like Cali get so much fed money thats then wasted it appears they got $4,400,000,000 in fed money they will have to return from the failed HSR project. That fed money alone is more than OK dpends per year on roads if not mistaken. The reason 235/44 takes over 10 years to build is solely due to us having to wait for our annual “cut” of fed money to be released. It goes to show how the large states run these funding committees and waste so much money on pet projects while small states like OK have beg and plead just to get money to do one intersection. And then bleed it out over many years. When states like Texas do road projects and because of all their political clout (on spending committees) they get all money at once. This allows them to save on bidding and go 24/7/365 from start to finish.

So when I see this $77B Cali project fail its illistrates how much money they get from fed for these projects. OK is a donor state meaning we pay into fed mlre gas taxes than we get back in transportation money. In a way we help subsidize large states pet projects.

[Plutonic Panda]

^^^^ good point! The I-235/I-44 interchange is costing roughly 250 million(IRRC) around the same price the Dallas High Five Interchange(US-75/I-635) was built for over a decade ago. Amazing how much money this is. Another comparison is the entire Crosstown Project(which includes the BLVD) is around 1 billion dollars or so.

The amount of money the feds gave CA could have gone to much needed improvements on existing passenger rail networks and conventional expansions like a Tulsa to OKC route among others such as resurrection of the Desert Wind route to Las Vegas(Nevada).

[Mott]

^^^^ good point! The I-235/I-44 interchange is costing roughly 250 million(IRRC) around the same price the Dallas High Five Interchange(US-75/I-635) was built for over a decade ago. Amazing how much money this is. Another comparison is the entire Crosstown Project(which includes the BLVD) is around 1 billion dollars or so.

The amount of money the feds gave CA could have gone to much needed improvements on existing passenger rail networks and conventional expansions like a Tulsa to OKC route among others such as resurrection of the Desert Wind route to Las Vegas(Nevada).

Well, okay how much. becomes too much? 38 years workin on the railroad, and it would be financially impossible to make the old Frisco, now SLWC, a viable time efficient train ride from OKC to Tulsa. The last time I worked it, a 10-25 mph railroad, no signals, and lot’s of curves that would have 25 mph speed restrictions after millions were spent on the right of way.

[Plutonic Panda]

I’m making a comparison with that post.

100 billion is too much to build the proposed CA HSR.

[Quicker]

I’m making a comparison with that post.

100 billion is too much to build the proposed CA HSR.

Agreed but at the same time you’re pointing out that if the cost of that one project is just too much, any thought of a national high speed train network is completely unrealistic...

[Plutonic Panda]

Agreed but at the same time you’re pointing out that if the cost of that one project is just too much, any thought of a national high speed train network is completely unrealistic...

Yes I agree. I think HSR will only work in highly trafficked and populated/regional areas like NE, Dallas to Houston, ST. Louis-Chicago, etc. It is simply impossible for current rail technology to compete with transcontinental flights that move at 600MPH and for systems like China or Western Europe, North America can not be compared to those areas for one reason or another.

My current impressions of Texas's HSR are less than favorable at the moment given the proposed station locations. Every aspect of HSR is crucial and tying the lines into central transit hubs to ensure ease of access to other transit options when you arrive at your destination is no exception. Still, the Virgin Trains proposal(there has been so many different proposals now its ridiculous) of connecting to Las Vegas to Victorville can't be beat in foolishness. Zero point in that train unless they purely see it as a stepping stone until a connection can be built through the Cajun pass or they plan on sharing with Amtrak; I don't see either one of those likely in the near future.

[Quicker]

Yes I agree. I think HSR will only work in highly trafficked and populated/regional areas like NE, Dallas to Houston, ST. Louis-Chicago, etc. It is simply impossible for current rail technology to compete with transcontinental flights that move at 600MPH and for systems like China or Western Europe, North America can not be compared to those areas for one reason or another.

Honestly, it’s not really a matter of technology, it’s the extraordinary expense of materials, manpower and land acquisition to build the infrastructure for trains to go that fast...

[Plutonic Panda]

Honestly, it’s not really a matter of technology, it’s the extraordinary expense of materials, manpower and land acquisition to build the infrastructure for trains to go that fast...

The fastest train I know of is MagLev and I believe even Japan has abandoned that technology as far as building any more of it. I think though Japan has built out a pretty extensive network, it's extreme costs are high enough to make an area like Tokyo contemplate whether or not it's worth it. Hyperloop just seems to have too many obstacles to overcome for it to be a serious contender for transportation options in the near future. There are other posters who are more knowledgeable than me on this subject, but I suspect we see supersonic flights again before we see trains catch up to conventional air travel speeds.

[Quicker]

The fastest train I know of is MagLev and I believe even Japan has abandoned that technology as far as building any more of it. I think though Japan has built out a pretty extensive network, it's extreme costs are high enough to make an area like Tokyo contemplate whether or not it's worth it. Hyperloop just seems to have too many obstacles to overcome for it to be a serious contender for transportation options in the near future. There are other posters who are more knowledgeable than me on this subject, but I suspect we see supersonic flights again before we see trains catch up to conventional air travel speeds.

I would agree completely and I even question the wisdom of building passenger rail in the OKC metro when it will never be the fastest, most convenient option... it will be at least 10 years until we could possibly see passenger rail from Norman to Edmond and with technology increasing at the pace that it is, I think we might truly be on the cusp of flying mass transit with drone technology... I may be a little off on my timeline but it’s inevitable that it will be cheaper to fly rather than building expensive track for trains to run on... I really believe we need to be more forward thinking...

[Plutonic Panda]

Yes, I am very off put by the proposed time table of commuter rail in OKC as well. Though this is also coming from someone who does NOT support the streetcar; I am generally in favor of increased transit options for all users. 10 years to build a commuter network is just comedy and not worth taking serious or getting excited about, IMO. This kind of thing should take 3-5 years at most.

I know this isn't an apples to apples comparison, but IIRC, Montreal had this thing go from concept to construction in under 10 years: https://archpaper.com/2018/02/montre...nsion-decades/

I don't remember the specifics, but OKC should be able to pull something off with commuter rail faster than a decade. You are correct, more ideas need to be brought to the table.

[baralheia]

To illistrate how large states like Cali get so much fed money thats then wasted it appears they got $4,400,000,000 in fed money they will have to return from the failed HSR project. That fed money alone is more than OK dpends per year on roads if not mistaken. The reason 235/44 takes over 10 years to build is solely due to us having to wait for our annual “cut” of fed money to be released. It goes to show how the large states run these funding committees and waste so much money on pet projects while small states like OK have beg and plead just to get money to do one intersection. And then bleed it out over many years. When states like Texas do road projects and because of all their political clout (on spending committees) they get all money at once. This allows them to save on bidding and go 24/7/365 from start to finish.

So when I see this $77B Cali project fail its illistrates how much money they get from fed for these projects. OK is a donor state meaning we pay into fed mlre gas taxes than we get back in transportation money. In a way we help subsidize large states pet projects.

It's my understanding that this is not *entirely* accurate; TxDOT is able to leverage debt financing, along with a much larger budget, for highway projects, so they can put all the money up front to get a project done. I can't find the exact citation, but I thought that ODOT was not allowed to use - or was constrained to a great degree from using - debt financing, including bonds, to complete projects.

[citywokchinesefood]

Yes, I am very off put by the proposed time table of commuter rail in OKC as well. Though this is also coming from someone who does NOT support the streetcar; I am generally in favor of increased transit options for all users. 10 years to build a commuter network is just comedy and not worth taking serious or getting excited about, IMO. This kind of thing should take 3-5 years at most.

I know this isn't an apples to apples comparison, but IIRC, Montreal had this thing go from concept to construction in under 10 years: https://archpaper.com/2018/02/montre...nsion-decades/

I don't remember the specifics, but OKC should be able to pull something off with commuter rail faster than a decade. You are correct, more ideas need to be brought to the table.

From what I have read in other threads it seems like people expect it to be 7-10 years out from the approval of a funding mechanism. I agree this entire process just feels like it is dragging on for decades.

[Plutonic Panda]

Baralheia, if you get a chance to read it, I am interested to see your take on the plan to restore our railroads by the two billionaires.

[HangryHippo]

Baralheia, if you get a chance to read it, I am interested to see your take on the plan to restore our railroads by the two billionaires.

Which article is this, PluPan?

[Plutonic Panda]

Which article is this, PluPan?

This one here: https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/opinio...-u-s-railroads

I am not well educated in the history of railroads and I need to learn more about what could be done to makes things more efficient, and as such, I am interested in hearing other people's opinion about this proposal. Please share!

[HangryHippo]

This one here: https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/opinio...-u-s-railroads

I am not well educated in the history of railroads and I need to learn more about what could be done to makes things more efficient, and as such, I am interested in hearing other people's opinion about this proposal. Please share!

Thanks for the link!

[TheTravellers]

There’s Nothing Ridiculous About Trains Replacing Planes

Biggest takeaway is this (one of the "worst practices" they list that occurred during the CA plan):

"The determination not to engage French and Chinese engineers who offered to just build the damn thing for us. “The equivalent of Bangladesh saying they’d go to the moon with indigenous technology” is how Perl describes the general attitude. “We excluded all the learning and tech that happened elsewhere.”"

[Mott]

Having ridden trains in China, when they were still building new steam locomotives at Datong, the progress there since 1985 is remarkable. Riding the SNCF TVG’s is amazing. 125 mph and your wine hardly moves in the glass. The main take away is separate right of ways, for high speed passenger only. The TVG rejoins the old network for the last 5-10 miles into Paris. The vested interests don’t want the competition, and the Koch brother don’t want the taxes.
‘

[Plutonic Panda]

There’s Nothing Ridiculous About Trains Replacing Planes

Biggest takeaway is this (one of the "worst practices" they list that occurred during the CA plan):

"The determination not to engage French and Chinese engineers who offered to just build the damn thing for us. “The equivalent of Bangladesh saying they’d go to the moon with indigenous technology” is how Perl describes the general attitude. “We excluded all the learning and tech that happened elsewhere.”"

I think we should find a niche to connect cities that are too far to drive but too short to fly with HSR routes.

As I have stated, Amtrak needs to be overhauled from the ground up and every single line in the country should have a standard average speed of 110 MPH. If you do that, replace old trains with modern high tech ones, ensure high quality stations, and increase frequencies, I bet you see ridership go up by double digits if not more in some cases. The current CEO of Amtrak is not a good person for maintaining rail service and has stated he would be in favor of replacing long distance trains with bus service outside of the NEC. Hopefully he gets replaced soon though I would rather the entire company be replaced from the ground up and become a government agency.

[Mott]

I agree, Amtrak is being badly managed, we need to increase trains, schedules, etc. But you aren’t going to run 110 on freight railroads that have 60-70mph speeds. The railroads are congested and can’t handle passenger trains efficiently, even with a proper Amtrak management. I wish OKC had a history of commuter trains with multiple track right of ways, but sadly we don’t.

[Plutonic Panda]

I agree, Amtrak is being badly managed, we need to increase trains, schedules, etc. But you aren’t going to run 110 on freight railroads that have 60-70mph speeds. The railroads are congested and can’t handle passenger trains efficiently, even with a proper Amtrak management. I wish OKC had a history of commuter trains with multiple track right of ways, but sadly we don’t.

It is going to take some serious investment with tons of miles of dedicated track, but I believe it will be much cheaper and realistic than a national high speed rail(220 MPH is what I consider HSR though some more conservative measures have it at 160MPH/256KMH). Even though just a modest increase in frequencies, station upgrades, and some grade separations should go a long way.