What Dallas advantages remain?

[Pete]

With the rash of great bars and restaurants, the prospect of tons of new retailers and what seems to be a burgeoning live music scene, I pose this question: What does Dallas have to offer that OKC does not?

As we know all too well, Dallas has been drawing people from Oklahoma for jobs, excitement, night life, dining, shopping, sports, recreation and just plain vacation for decades. Oklahomans have spent tons of money in North Texas.

But now that OKC has many of the same things, I thought it might be interesting to compile a list of Dallas draws that are lacking in Central Oklahoma.

We all know the ease of life in OKC is much better: generally less expensive, way less traffic, etc.

It seems the migration -- and the desire to do so -- to Big D has greatly lessened and I suspect the number of people traveling there for various reasons is starting to decrease as well.


Dallas Advantages (this is just a start):

Live Music. But this is likely to change very soon.

Pro Sports. They have big-league soccer, hockey, baseball and football in addition to the NBA. However, I wonder how many Okies actually travel for these things any more? With the Thunder, college and minor league sports, I think that has slowed down dramatically.

Recreation. Six Flags. We have nothing like it.

Arts. The have bigger, better symphonies, ballet, theater and everything else. But I doubt many people are moving or traveling for these.

Shopping. Ikea. Nordstrom. What else that people actually travel for?

Restaurants. Every city will have unique restaurants but OKC is fast catching with the big chains and has tons of great local options now.

Young people / vitality. OKC has made up tons of ground here.

Jobs. Again, Dallas isn't nearly the lure it once was, mainly due to the robust local job market.

Urbanism. Dallas has bits – like DART and some great neighborhoods – but you could actually make the argument it's way worse than OKC in terms of sprawl, traffic, etc.

[bchris02]

A huge one is that Dallas' urban districts are much farther along and are interconnected. The walk from downtown Dallas through Uptown up to SMU/Mockingbird Station is amazing and OKC has nothing that compares. OKC can get there on a smaller scale once you can walk from Bricktown to Midtown, and then either up to the Paseo or over to the Plaza and be in contiguous, gentrified, mixed-use urban development the entire time. Today, OKC still has far too many gaps in development. Dallas also has DART as well as adequate retail services (grocery/drug store) in its urban core. OKC has a long way to go here.

Another big one is family-oriented entertainment. OKC likes to focus on being a family-oriented city, but I wish this city would get some of the higher-tiered family-oriented attractions like Dallas has. Things like Ripley's House of Wax/Believe it or Not, the Aquarium, Perot Science Museum, Medieval Times, Rainforest Cafe, etc. These kind of attractions would be a home run in Lower Bricktown.

Like you said, recreation is a big one also. In addition to Six Flags, Dallas' greenway/trail/park system completely blows OKC's out of the water both in overall scope as well as design.

Another big one for me, though this isn't a big deal to a lot of people, is aesthetics and placemaking. Dallas has a similar climate to OKC and lacks a lot of natural beauty to work with, but they make up for it with excellent placemaking, beautification, and building codes. Most areas have sidewalks and are well landscaped and maintained. This applies to both urban and suburban areas of Dallas. I really wish OKC would start taking this more seriously because an aesthetically pleasing city is a much nicer city to live in, at least in my opinion.

[ou48A]

What Dallas and Texas have that OKC and Oklahoma do not at least not by as much is a far better corporate environment which with their higher wages drives the development of amenity’s that have been listed in this thread.

As a result of the environment that they have created the major city’s in Texas have a much greater base of wealth that builds and donates to causes with a vision to create more even more prosperity not only for themselves but for their community’s as well.

Our state needs to become a far friendlier place to new, relocating and expanding corporate headquarters with a better state tax environment for both individuals and corporations and also offer incentives that can’t be ignored. Maps did wonders for OKC …. So can making our state the best place for corporation to locate their high wage, high end operations.

Business and their CEO's always and eventually follow the money and so do the nice things that many of us want.

[OklahomaNick]

Corporate headquarters:

Dallas Fortune 500: (21 total)

List of companies in the Dallas?Fort Worth metroplex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2 Exxon Mobil (Irving)
12 AT&T (Dallas)
112 American Airlines Group (Fort Worth, Texas)
124 Fluor Corporation (Irving)
130 Kimberly-Clark (Irving)
143 HollyFrontier (Dallas)
146 J.C. Penney (Plano)
175 Texas Instruments (Dallas)
203 Dean Foods (Dallas)
205 Southwest Airlines (Dallas)
262 GameStop (Grapevine)
266 Tenet Healthcare (Dallas)
292 Energy Future Holdings (Dallas)
351 Energy Transfer Equity (Dallas)
361 Commercial Metals (Irving)
341 Affiliated Computer Services (Dallas)
388 Celanese (Dallas)
404 Dr Pepper Snapple Group (Plano)
473 Atmos Energy (Dallas)
492 RadioShack (Fort Worth)
493 Wistron (McKinney, Texas)

Oklahoma City Fortune 500: (2 total)

List of companies based in Oklahoma City - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

163. Chesapeake Energy
270. Devon Energy

[OklahomaNick]

Population:

Oklahoma City MSA : 1,347,333

Dallas MSA:

Dallas–Fort Worth–Arlington : 6,371,773

Dallas–Plano–Irving : 4,235,751
Fort Worth–Arlington : 2,136,022

[bchris02]

Population:

Oklahoma City MSA : 1,347,333

Dallas MSA:

Dallas–Fort Worth–Arlington : 6,371,773

Dallas–Plano–Irving : 4,235,751
Fort Worth–Arlington : 2,136,022

In terms of statistics such as population, GDP, and number of Fortune 500 companies, DFW is so much larger than OKC that there really isn't any comparison. The difference between OKC and DFW is as vast as the difference between Fort Smith, Arkansas and OKC.

I think Pete was asking more about amenities and quality of life. Why would somebody who lives in OKC take weekend trips to Dallas or want to move there? What, in terms of quality of life, would a person gain from living in Dallas over OKC? In my opinion there are still numerous advantages to DFW but nobody can deny that the necessity of trips to the Metroplex or the desire of OU grads to move there is lower now than it was 15 years ago.

[adaniel]

As you know I was one of the Okies that got sucked down to Dallas for a job last year. But my parents and family have been here a while, so I've been able to see both cities pretty well over the past 10 years or so.

I think Dallas's biggest advantage over OKC is that is a bigger market, and all that entails. More diverse job offerings (this is main one) especially if you want to work in IT or Finance, more shopping, more concerts and shows. If that sounds vague, it’s because it is. Beyond more jobs, drilling down specific benefits would start being more dependent on personal tastes.

Dallas has plenty of sprawl, but also some fantastic urban neighborhoods like Trinity Groves, Bishops Arts District, Lower Greenville, etc. that are really beginning to pop. The problem is most Okies and frankly, most DFW suburbanites, know nothing about these places. And if I were to be completely honest, they are at best larger and slightly more polished versions of districts you can find in OKC. But they are nice nonetheless if someone from OKC was just itching for a change in scenery.

I am probably going to catch hell for this but outside of Tex-Mex I am not impressed at all with Dallas's culinary scene. I have yet to find a good BBQ place (I mentioned in a previous thread I had to sit in traffic for an hour and a half for decent brisket). I still cannot find a good bowl of Pho like I could off of Classen, and a lot of the famous burger haunts here are underwhelming compared to S&B’s, the Garage, etc. On the flip side there are chains chains and more chains, if that's your thing....it’s not mine though. I find there is an overemphasis on “upscale” everything and overpriced fusion nonsense. Certainly not something I would drive down from OKC from.

The arts scene here is underrated, especially if you include Ft Worth. Personally not something I would drive down from OKC but again, a nice change in scenery if you wanted to get out of town for a bit. Dallas is actually a national leader in Black Arts. The theatre scene here needs some work. If you want good theatre, believe it or not Houston is actually one of the better ones in the US.

One major thing that I think should give a lot of Oklahomans pause about Dallas is the surging cost of living. Of course DFW has always been more than OKC but once upon a time the cost difference was pretty minimal. Not anymore. There still are a good amount of corporate relocations here, especially from the coasts, and its bringing a lot of outside money (and equity) here. The price of real estate is starting to get out of hand. There was actually an article about this recently in the DMN. More than anything, I am hearing natives starting to complain about this. Gone are the days when you could buy a new $200-300K home in a decent school district. Today that is more like 350-500K. Still cheaper than NYC or LA but higher than vast majority of the middle of the country; and needless to say, wages have not gone up at the same rate. This is addition to the increase in cost of commuting due to the spread of toll roads and overall congestion.

In the US today, big cities can be grouped at their simplest as lifestyle cities or business cities. Dallas is very much the later and it does a very good job at it. But outside of that, a lot of so-called advantages here can be found in other places. DFW, much like OKC, is a good city to establish your base and use it as a jump off point for other places. Personally, I think OKC should emulate more towards Denver. I feel that more than any other city, it presents the biggest magnet for people from Central OK. It would be wise to place ourselves in their orbit more.

[Swake]

Well, let’s start off with the fact that Dallas sucks as a big city. It’s one of, if not the, very worst large metros in the nation. All the pain and congestion and difficulty of a big city with so little in return. Dallas isn’t urban, it isn’t cool, it doesn’t have history, or culture, or arts. Everyone I know that lives there is working on leaving. I have no idea how it continues to grow like it does.

Think about this, Dallas-Ft Worth has a population that is rapidly approaching the size of Washington-Baltimore, Boston, Philadelphia, Miami and the Bay Area. It’s only a third smaller than Chicago! Think about what those cities have to offer compared to Dallas, those cities are now DFW’s peers. The truth is that Dallas and Houston absolutely suck compared real large cities.

I pointedly have not mentioned the other peer city, Atlanta, because Atlanta sucks too.

Quit trying to be Dallas.

[bchris02]

Dallas has plenty of sprawl, but also some fantastic urban neighborhoods like Trinity Groves, Bishops Arts District, Lower Greenville, etc. that are really beginning to pop. The problem is most Okies and frankly, most DFW suburbanites, know nothing about these places. And if I were to be completely honest, they are at best larger and slightly more polished versions of districts you can find in OKC. But they are nice nonetheless if someone from OKC was just itching for a change in scenery.

Dallas' urban districts are one of the big reasons I would consider moving there from OKC. While I do agree that many of Dallas' districts are larger and more polished versions of what is emerging here, OKC's urban districts are still very small and early in their redevelopment while in Dallas they are much more mature and interconnected. If that is the environment one is looking for, why wait 10-15 years for OKC to get there when it is already available in Dallas?

Some people like being part of an urban renaissance and for them, OKC is one of the best places I can think of to be right now. Some people however want a "finished" city and for them, Dallas is suffice while OKC isn't quite there yet. That said, if the choice was between Dallas and say Austin or Denver, a strong case could be made for the latter.

I am probably going to catch hell for this but outside of Tex-Mex I am not impressed at all with Dallas's culinary scene.

I think seafood could be added to the list of reasons to go to Dallas. In OKC your choices are pretty much Red Lobster or some cajun/fried variety. Dallas has a ton of great seafood restaurants, both chain and locally owned. Real Indian food (not a buffet) is another cuisine people drive to Dallas for. Personally I have no issues with the Tex-Mex in OKC or maybe I just haven't tried the right place in Dallas yet.

Personally, I think OKC should emulate more towards Denver. I feel that more than any other city, it presents the biggest magnet for people from Central OK. It would be wise to place ourselves in their orbit more.

I would agree, but I think OKC is going to have a difficult time emulating Denver well due to stark differences in politics and ideologies. A lot of people who move from OKC to Denver do it more for the cultural differences than their desire for an urban experience. OKC is going to have a difficult time getting there with the current crop at 23rd and Lincoln. I would really like to see that change.

[Pete]

My point was not that there weren't MORE and BIGGER things (they are 6x OKC's size and one of the largest metro areas in the U.S., after all), it was that many of the main reasons to move and spend money there are evaporating because OKC offers so much more.

Some people are always going to be drawn by bigger cities, just like people in Dallas longing for New York or Chicago.

I'm just pointing out many of the things OKC simply didn't have at all before (good restaurants, bars, shopping, hotels, urban areas) we now do have and when you pair that with the incredible hassle of living in a place like Dallas, I think a fundamental shift has occurred where most locals no longer feel as compelled to move or visit there.

[Swake]

My point was not that there weren't MORE and BIGGER things (they are 6x OKC's size and one of the largest metro areas in the U.S., after all), it was that many of the main reasons to move and spend money there are evaporating because OKC offers so much more.

Some people are always going to be drawn by bigger cities, just like people in Dallas longing for New York or Chicago.

I'm just pointing out many of the things OKC simply didn't have at all before (good restaurants, bars, shopping, hotels, urban areas) we now do have and when you pair that with the incredible hassle of living in a place like Dallas, I think a fundamental shift has occurred where most locals now feel as compelled to move or visit there.

Oklahoma City today is a better and more livable city than Dallas, right now. It doesn't have the crushing traffic, it's less expensive with higher overall disposable income and has almost all the amenities Dallas has that are really meaningful to people and those amenities in Oklahoma City are are more accessible in cost, time and difficulty. Any increase in income is more than offset in costs and any improvement in the job market is negated by always having to factor in commutes into job searches.

Oklahoma City has a more cohesive culture and happier residents. If you want to live in a city where you are going to spend 2+ hours a day in your car, live in a smaller house/apartment where you know none of your neighbors, where the only accessible restaurants are expensive chains with long waits. Any kind of real local or unique restaurants, any arts or sports are going to be far more expensive and involve a serious investment in travel and time. So maybe OKC doesn't have the Cowboys, but, most people in DFW don't actually ever go to a game, and if you would like to go to a game every once in awhile from Oklahoma City you can with only an increase in drive time of a few hours. In Oklahoma City you are saving more time than that in your car every couple of days.

Other cities the size of Dallas with the built in difficulty of movement and expense that comes with large cities more than make up for it with real transit, Other large cities can offset cost by a couple being able to live with only one car, or no car if they choose. Other large cities have real walkable residential areas that have history and a feeling of community. Neighborhoods with local shops and restaurants in them and not just bland chains in seas of parking. Other large cities have so many more amenities than Dallas and amenities that if driving is difficult you can take transit to get to. Even if you have to live in smaller apartments in larger cities you have a coffee shop and a bodega without even leaving the building, and a gym, bank, deli and corner pub without leaving your block. Does that sound like Dallas? Dallas has thousands of square miles of suburbia with crushing traffic and no real opportunity to even get to what few semi-urban areas it has. Dallas is Edmond x70 with your job and hour away and Bricktown two hours away.

[Pete]

Oklahoma City today is a better and more livable city than Dallas, right now. It doesn't have the crushing traffic, it's less expensive with higher overall disposable income and has almost all the amenities Dallas has that are really meaningful to people and those amenities in Oklahoma City are are more accessible in cost, time and difficulty. Any increase in income is more than offset in costs and any improvement in the job market is negated by always having to factor in commutes into job searches.

Yes, this was my point.

OKC has always been miles more livable but also miles more boring. Now, we've caught up a great deal in most areas and thus the huge increase in hassle is often not worth the reward of the moreness that cities like Dallas offer.

If Big D had beaches or mountains or something that OKC simply doesn't have at all, then that would be different. But it's always been the shopping, the nightlife, the restaurants, the jobs. And in all those areas, OKC is starting to be able to hold it's own.

There is simply tons to do in OKC now just about all the time, and for young people that's a big deal.

[bradh]

Other than a couple of chain retail stores we always had where we lived (Houston/Phoenix/DFW), there isn't much I miss about DFW now that I've been here 6 years.

[Teo9969]

A lot of the things that people would like to see here will start popping up now that the local economy is picking up major steam. OKC sort of "stopped the bleeding" with the original MAPS and is only now for the first time in a long time, seeing the benefit of a greater percentage of citizens' money staying in town.

I'm sure the amount of money staying local that previously would flow to other economies is in the hundreds of millions of dollars annually.

Hundreds of millions of dollars that fall mostly to the hands of the bottom 70%. Give them more money to establish a stronger middle class and after awhile, it makes sense for EVERYONE to build bigger/better amenities.

On the list of things that Dallas has that OKC doesn't: DART. Public transit there is definitely ahead.

But overall, I think we're fast reaching a point where Dallas will become an afterthought for your average OKC citizen. Maybe a visit every 2 or 3 years instead of once or twice a year. People are instead going to hitting up other cities like Chicago, New York, LA, and smaller regional players like Denver, KC, and Austin.

And lastly…Houston is a far more compelling city, to me, than Dallas. It's not as "nice" as Dallas, but the culture is tangibly more vibrant.

[bradh]

You're absolutely right on Houston, for all it's unzoned sprawling madness, that city has got tons of culture (but also some of the same income creep issues adaniel talked about in Dallas).

[bchris02]

But overall, I think we're fast reaching a point where Dallas will become an afterthought for your average OKC citizen. Maybe a visit every 2 or 3 years instead of once or twice a year. People are instead going to hitting up other cities like Chicago, New York, LA, and smaller regional players like Denver, KC, and Austin.

This puts me in mind of Charlotte's relationship with Atlanta. Charlotte is roughly the same distance from Atlanta as OKC is from Dallas. Atlanta is barely on the radar for people in Charlotte these days. Charlotte has reached the point where it offers almost everything Atlanta does but without the traffic and hassle of a 5+ million population metro area. Most people in Charlotte either go to the coast or up to the DC area for weekend trips. People don't envy nor do they desire to move to Atlanta. That hasn't always been the case.

I don't think OKC is at the point where it can say that yet. There is still quite a bit Dallas offers that OKC doesn't, most of which has been explained in this thread. I also think for people who really want a big city experience, OKC will never be able to compare to a 6 million population metro and Dallas is a great place to live for those wanting a big city experience in this region of the country.

However, I think within the next 10-15 years, this city will get to the point where regular trips to Dallas won't cross the mind of the average OKC resident, and there will be less envy and/or desire to move there.

One more thing I almost posted earlier that Dallas has that OKC doesn't is a wider variety of non-chain late-night restaurants. Waffle Champion is going 24-hours except for Monday in July though so that will really help OKC in this area.

[Teo9969]

The thing is, we're not talking about big amenities. We're talking about every day life. If you're lacking something in your everyday life, you'll go find it elsewhere, even if you stay put, you'll travel more.

With those things we lack fast running out, Dallas becomes for OKC citizens what it has always been: A completely lackluster city for its size. I'm not sure Dallas is worthy of a Top 25 spot in major US cities to visit list (Though Forth Worth might could be).

The best word I can think to describe Dallas: Sterile

[dankrutka]

I can't imagine anyone looking for urbanism would choose Dallas. And for public transportation the DART is pretty bad. I've walked Dallas a lot and it's just not a good place for pedestrians generally. Try walking the 5 blocks from American Airlines to McKinney through the core of the city and you'll see what I mean...

I like Dallas fine. It's just not that good at urbanism for its size and density.

[Mr. Cotter]

I'm from Dallas, and all of my family still lives there. I probably spend 10 to 15 days a year there now. When we're not spending time with family, my wife and I make sure to take advantage of a few amenities we don't have in OKC including:

1) Art museums. The DMA and Kimbell make the OKCMOA look like a college studio art show.
2) Shopping. My wife loves Northpark. I wear a suit and tie to work, and my options are much better in Dallas.
3) Independent theaters. I'm still surprised we don't have a decent option here.

That's about it. For most other things, we prefer OKC. I'd rather work, own a home, drive, and eat in OKC.

[sooner88]

Rail from the airport to the CBD would be a gamechanger. The drive to our airport is not extremely far, but the ability to get to your hotel and not have the need for an Uber/cab would be huge.

[progressiveboy]

Dallas traffic can be a real challenge. However, toll roads are becoming more common place in DFW to move traffic, however, what I see major is congestion on the toll roads and is not really serving it's purpose. OKC is slowly becoming a more developing city but must continue the momentum to get those coveted retailers and venues. I am aware that Boeing and PayCom are looking to expand with high paying jobs but it would help if OKC was a little more aggressive in seeking out HQ's. Just this week alone, Dallas announced another California company moving HQ to DFW. If it can be done in Dallas, it could be done in OKC.

[bchris02]

I can't imagine anyone looking for urbanism would choose Dallas. And for public transportation the DART is pretty bad. I've walked Dallas a lot and it's just not a good place for pedestrians generally. Try walking the 5 blocks from American Airlines to McKinney through the core of the city and you'll see what I mean...

I like Dallas fine. It's just not that good at urbanism for its size and density.

If somebody has family in OKC and want to move somewhere more urban but don't want to move very far, then Dallas is a perfect option. Also, while Dallas isn't NYC (and who would expect it to be), I personally find it to be satisfying as far as urbanism is concerned. I've done a lot of exploring in Dallas on foot and found most of their urban districts are well-developed, polished, and interconnected. You don't have the huge gaps of open land or dilapidated structures that you have in OKC. If somebody wanted to live in a "finished" urban city and doesn't want to wait 10-15 years for OKC to get there and also doesn't want to move to the coast, Dallas is a perfect choice.

[ou48A]

Oklahoma City doesn’t really have anything like this…. The Dallas Arboretum and Botanical Garden….

It sits on the estate of an OU geology graduate.

Featured Gardens - Dallas Arboretum and Botanical Gardens

[hfry]

Blair Humphreys had a great retweet yesterday that I think fits into this conversation. It said "Demand for walkable places in Dallas is 68%. Supply is 4% via Farr and #CNU23" While I'm not saying OKC is more Urban or walkable than Dallas by any stretch of the imagination I think it has a long way to go to actually be considered urban or walkable. Sure they have pockets that are great but in general Dallas is one giant sprawl and I feel OKC in its youth tried to sprawl out like Dallas. Thankfully both cities are understanding the merits of places that are walkable.

[Swake]

If somebody has family in OKC and want to move somewhere more urban but don't want to move very far, then Dallas is a perfect option. Also, while Dallas isn't NYC (and who would expect it to be), I personally find it to be satisfying as far as urbanism is concerned. I've done a lot of exploring in Dallas on foot and found most of their urban districts are well-developed, polished, and interconnected. You don't have the huge gaps of open land or dilapidated structures that you have in OKC. If somebody wanted to live in a "finished" urban city and doesn't want to wait 10-15 years for OKC to get there and also doesn't want to move to the coast, Dallas is a perfect choice.

If you think Dallas is a "perfect choice" as a "finished urban city" then you have spent no time in real cities. Dallas isn't anymore urban than Oklahoma City.

Dallas' peers are The Bay Area, Washington, Boston, Philadelphia and the like. Dallas pales badly in comparison, in all ways.