BRT in OKC

[okcustu]

Amateur transit enthusiast here and I thought I'd do a little fantasy map of what mass transit could like. While rail is my favorite mode of transit, bus rapid transit is really great for communities that aren't dense or aren't already using transit. It can done much more cheaply and is more flexible; it's also a great first step before light rail.

I made this fantasy map, thinking of the most popular destinations, density, and employment centers. I know it's very far from perfect and the station locations are just approximate. I just wanted to get some feedback and get some conversation going on quick affordable ways to do mass transit, since widespread rail is going to be a ways off. You can look at the interactive Google Map to look at the proposed stops and such.

EDIT: I welcome suggestions and differing opinions, this is my first try at something like this.

[betts]

The fixed guideways study has some BRT on it. The biggest problem with BRT is cost. It's as expensive as some streetcars, although it is true it's very easy to implement unless you build a dedicated lane. If you haven't seen this, it's an interesting outline.

Fixed Guideway Plan (FGP) | METRO Transit Providing Central Oklahoma Transportation & Bus Service Options

[okcustu]

The fixed guideways study has some BRT on it. The biggest problem with BRT is cost. It's as expensive as some streetcars, although it is true it's very easy to implement unless you build a dedicated lane. If you haven't seen this, it's an interesting outline.

Fixed Guideway Plan (FGP) | METRO Transit Providing Central Oklahoma Transportation & Bus Service Options

Right they are pricey to build right, but streetcars aren't the best the comparison since streetcars are for short distance travel. Good BRT is for express long distance travel.

[catch22]

Right they are pricey to build right, but streetcars aren't the best the comparison since streetcars are for short distance travel. Good BRT is for express long distance travel.

A streetcar running in it's own right of way is essentially light rail. BRT usually runs in it's on right of way.

[okcustu]

A streetcar running in it's own right of way is essentially light rail. BRT usually runs in it's on right of way.

Agreed, I just meant streetcars as most people are talking about are "mixed-traffic" streetcars. Also you have to be careful about trying to mix commuter traffic and local traffic on the same line.

[BoulderSooner]

Legit brt in a dedicated lane is not in any way cheap

[okcustu]

Cheaper than light rail and definitely cheaper than heavy rail. The benefit in the short term, is that you can actually have the vehicle very close the the destination. Existing rail lines are awkwardly placed and then you wind up with locations that are not walkable and not ripe for development.

[BoulderSooner]

Between 13-25 mil a mile. In a city that doesn't like busses No thanks. Much better off spending 50-70 mil a mile and building light rail .

[okcustu]

Between 13-25 mil a mile. In a city that doesn't like buses No thanks. Much better off spending 50-70 mil a mile and building light rail .

I'd agree with you, but I don't see the political will for that anytime soon. Auto-centric cities like Cleveland, Tampa and San Antonio have implemented them. People don't like buses as they are now. I think BRT is good idea in the interim.

[venture]

Between 13-25 mil a mile. In a city that doesn't like busses No thanks. Much better off spending 50-70 mil a mile and building light rail .

IOW, do it right the first time instead of paying for it twice.

[BoulderSooner]

I'd agree with you, but I don't see the political will for that anytime soon. Auto-centric cities like Cleveland, Tampa and San Antonio have implemented them. People don't like buses as they are now. I think BRT is good idea in the interim.

A RTA and dedicated transit tax make it possible.

[okcustu]

What do you think is the timeline? I'm thinking middle of the next decade...

[okcustu]

Also there are going to be some routes that just don't add up for light rail so I imagine a finished product will include some BRT as permanent routes.

[CaptDave]

I'd agree with you, but I don't see the political will for that anytime soon. Auto-centric cities like Cleveland, Tampa and San Antonio have implemented them. People don't like buses as they are now. I think BRT is good idea in the interim.

They said the same thing in DFW - but look at DART now. The key is establishing the RTA as soon as possible to start planning and influencing right of way decisions and modifications even if it would have no operations right away.

You may find this interesting: DART.org - DART History

[okcustu]

They said the same thing in DFW - but look at DART now. The key is establishing the RTA as soon as possible to start planning and influencing right of way decisions and modifications even if it would have no operations right away.

You may find this interesting: DART.org - DART History

Probably not the best example. Most DART stations are in a sea of parking or between highways and totally miss TOD opportunities. Also the transit share in Dallas went down in recent years (probably from growth in the metro not declining ridership). The history also puts it 16 years from the formation of the RTA to grand opening... Also while not BRT they expanded bus lines first (BRT is a good way for people to get their feet wet, I think Okies have some acclimating to get used to before we become Denver).

[CaptDave]

From an urbanism perspective you are mostly correct. But it is informative on how to establish an extensive mass transit system from near zero in an area thought hostile toward transit. Some of the newer development along the DART light rail lines are right out of the new urbanist TOD handbook though. It takes time to alter long held perceptions and every city will have its own spin on how to develop around their transit systems.

[catch22]

Once the streetcar is built and people become familiar with how rail transit works, there will be a sudden move for people to want expanded rail.

In a conservative (both politically and in a sense of "try it before you buy it") city, people need to be exposed to a different method of transport before they will embrace it.

The political will power for enhanced rail service will come soon after the streetcar is running. And so will increased bus funding, as you can build a transit brand with the sexy streetcar pulling up the "dirty" bus.

[okcustu]

@captdave Yeah, I see your point, and while not perfect DART is still the envy of a lot if cities (OKC included). Salt Lake City is another great story to look to. Something I hope people think about is what to do in the interim. Taking Dallas as a model we're looking at 2025-2027 for a large mass transit buildout. Sprawl and traffic will be abysmal if OKC does nothing while we wait.

Also I think some people have a warped view that a light rail system will drop them off at the gate of their far off subdivision. There will be a number of routes that will not be sustainable for a $100 mil + rail line, so the aversion to buses will have to fade.

[okcustu]

Once the streetcar is built and people become familiar with how rail transit works, there will be a sudden move for people to want expanded rail.

In a conservative (both politically and in a sense of "try it before you buy it") city, people need to be exposed to a different method of transport before they will embrace it.

The political will power for enhanced rail service will come soon after the streetcar is running. And so will increased bus funding, as you can build a transit brand with the sexy streetcar pulling up the "dirty" bus.

Let me preface this by saying I support the streetcar, but in it's current form, not many people who are not living or working downtown will experience it. Certainly not as an actual car replacing or reducing form of transit. The only way (for example) Edmond to Integris commuters will see the joy of driving free commutes or trips to Frontier City without parking hassles is enhanced bus service. Edmond and parts of NW Expressway are prime candidates for rail later on, but softening of hearts will come from riding transit in that area or seeing the positive effect on traffic.

[CaptDave]

@captdave Yeah, I see your point, and while not perfect DART is still the envy of a lot if cities (OKC included). Salt Lake City is another great story to look to. Something I hope people think about is what to do in the interim. Taking Dallas as a model we're looking at 2025-2027 for a large mass transit buildout. Sprawl and traffic will be abysmal if OKC does nothing while we wait.

Also I think some people have a warped view that a light rail system will drop them off at the gate of their far off subdivision. There will be a number of routes that will not be sustainable for a $100 mil + rail line, so the aversion to buses will have to fade.

That is one reason I think the history of DART is relevant to OKC. They ran buses for years before laying the first piece of rail. The commuter express buses ran from locations that were eventually served by the LRT. In OKC, the streetcar with bus connections will be the first step to getting people to get over their bus phobia.

[okcustu]

That is one reason I think the history of DART is relevant to OKC. They ran buses for years before laying the first piece of rail. The commuter express buses ran from locations that were eventually served by the LRT. In OKC, the streetcar with bus connections will be the first step to getting people to get over their bus phobia.

We're on the same page then. And while not full BRT, there are still a number of express buses. And what's more, I believe some of the areas that were linked by the recent expansion DART did were served by express buses until those routes made sense for rail expansion.

[betts]

Express buses would be far cheaper to implement. Make them modern, colorful, put free wifi on then and have a nice enclosed station to wait for the bus and they might be surprisingly popular. Put a "stewardess" on the bus pouring coffee as well and you've changed the bus into a plane without wings. Then get them to the Santa Fe station where they can ride the streetcar to their final destination and you might have to fight people off.

[warreng88]

I've often thought a team of express buses to and from the airport from the Santa Fe station would be a great use instead of everyone having to rely on one shuttle from their hotel that could be out of commission. Once we get the bus system up and running on weekend, holidays and later in the evening, it will make it more comfortable. We also need to recognize where are other areas where there are a lot of hotels people need to go to and head there as well. Obviously the Meridian corridor, NW Expressway and May and Memorial hotels would be another.

[BG918]

Tulsa is doing a BRT line on Peoria, which will be implemented as part of the sales tax extension passed last November. It will be interesting to see if the public embraces it since it is not as "sexy" as a streetcar.
http://tulsatransit.org/wp-content/u...TFactSheet.pdf

[okcustu]

Tulsa is doing a BRT line on Peoria, which will be implemented as part of the sales tax extension passed last November. It will be interesting to see if the public embraces it since it is not as "sexy" as a streetcar.
http://tulsatransit.org/wp-content/u...TFactSheet.pdf

I agree that will be an interesting experiment. We also have to be careful to make sure that transit should be a transportation tool first and a development tool second. Gaining choice riders cannot come at the cost of providing rides to people who depend on transit. That being said Cleveland and a lot of other cities of have shown TOD can be built around BRT. Also betts I agree with you. The best way to show people who don't like transit that transit can work for them if they have it in their neighborhood and make it sexy enough for them to ride. Okc is in need of rail badly, so that's why I fully support the streetcar however I know there are many that think of the streetcar is an amusement park ride. Those people will not be convinced of the value of transit unless it is usable for them.