Community Storm Shelters

[Teo9969]

It would seem rational to me that OK would have some sort of implementation of community underground shelters. With as much vacant land as is around even our most densely developed areas, I would think it would be relatively easy and inexpensive to put in massive shelters where hundreds/thousands of people who don't have shelters could go in the case of an emergency. How difficult would it be to put one under the parking lot of every public school?

[ou48A]

PER CH 9
Apparently, today there is a proposal to float a 400 million dollar state bond issue to help build storm shelters in Oklahoma schools…. Another 100 million would go toward helping business and home owners to buy storm shelters… Now if we can just strengthen state building codes I would feel better.

Without knowing the details I would generally favor such a bond issue.

[ou48A]

PER CH 9
Apparently, today there is a proposal to float a 400 million dollar state bond issue to help build storm shelters in Oklahoma schools…. Another 100 million would go toward helping business and home owners to buy storm shelters… Now if we can just strengthen state building codes I would feel better.

Without knowing the details I would generally favor such a bond issue.

Link to above info.
Joe Dorman - Press Releases

[ljbab728]

It would seem rational to me that OK would have some sort of implementation of community underground shelters. With as much vacant land as is around even our most densely developed areas, I would think it would be relatively easy and inexpensive to put in massive shelters where hundreds/thousands of people who don't have shelters could go in the case of an emergency. How difficult would it be to put one under the parking lot of every public school?

Some cities have closed previously used shelters to the public during severe weather because it was felt it was too dangerous to have people trying to get to them during situations like that.

Mustang Times, School no longer open as public shelters

[ou48A]

This is why we need stronger NEW home build codes in Oklahoma!

Protecting Your House

At the conference on the Great Plains tornado of May 3, 1999 held in May 2000 in Oklahoma City, many engineers and meteorologists drew attention to the fact that there are many things the homeowner can do to make his/her home more wind-resistant.

Even in the Oklahoma City tornado, only limited areas experienced the most severe winds. Damage to most houses in the tornado path could have been greatly minimized with better construction.

It IS possible to make an existing home more wind-resistant from strong winds, hurricanes and even weaker tornadic winds, at reasonable cost

http://www.depts.ttu.edu/weweb/Shelt...tion.php#House

[Plutonic Panda]

Things need to change. All hospitals, schools, apartments buildings, and high density residential should have storm shelters to accommodate it's people. Further more, I don't believe in general community storm shelters because it encourages people to drive out and try and beat the storm, who live in low density suburban neighborhoods.

*Homes and businesses should have stronger building codes.

*It should be mandatory for businesses to have reinforced bathrooms for shelter

*They should find a way or make a law the regulates profits made by storm shelter companies in an attempt to lower the cost of storm shelters

*Rebates should also be available in tornado prone areas like much of Oklahoma

*I also believe that parking garages should have a center storm shelter as well

[OKCTalker]

ou48A - I disagree. This debate always ensues after severe weather, so here goes...

I don't want the government telling me that I should build to withstand a certain level of storm because as we have always known (and witnessed yesterday) you can die even in a well-constructed underground shelter. Also, I've lived here my entire life and have never even seen a tornado, so why should I have to build to that standard?

If you want to build to that standard, please go ahead. Underground shelter, be my guest. Underground house, that's your call. I merely ask that you don't impose those things on me. Because in the extraordinarily rare chance that they'll be tested, they may not work.

[Plutonic Panda]

ou48A - I disagree. This debate always ensues after severe weather, so here goes...

I don't want the government telling me that I should build to withstand a certain level of storm because as we have always known (and witnessed yesterday) you can die even in a well-constructed underground shelter. Also, I've lived here my entire life and have never even seen a tornado, so why should I have to build to that standard?

If you want to build to that standard, please go ahead. Underground shelter, be my guest. Underground house, that's your call. I merely ask that you don't impose those things on me. Because in the extraordinarily rare chance that they'll be tested, they may not work.

It's not really for you as for building a new standard for homebuilders.

[MadMonk]

Yeah, I don't view this as any different that plumbing and electrical codes. Things like strapping on rafters, etc. and an underground shelter don't really add that much to the cost of a new home's construction.

[adaniel]

The fallacy of human supremacy tends to arise after moments like these.

All the technology in the world is not going to save you from a direct hit from an F5 tornado. New building standards are not going to help your home withstand 300+ mph winds.

Wind speeds at that level bend rebar. And I'm pretty sure I heard stories of safe rooms failing. Unless you plan on making everyone live underground, there really is little way to protect yourself in a tornado that size outside of a good ol storm cellar or, at the very lest, a certain level of weather awareness.

I wouldn't mind if the state brought back credits for building storm shelters.

[ou48A]

ou48A - I disagree. This debate always ensues after severe weather, so here goes...

I don't want the government telling me that I should build to withstand a certain level of storm because as we have always known (and witnessed yesterday) you can die even in a well-constructed underground shelter. Also, I've lived here my entire life and have never even seen a tornado, so why should I have to build to that standard?

If you want to build to that standard, please go ahead. Underground shelter, be my guest. Underground house, that's your call. I merely ask that you don't impose those things on me. Because in the extraordinarily rare chance that they'll be tested, they may not work.

You may not want the government telling you anything and I really don’t either, but let me tell you why it’s in this case it’s in everyone best interest.
Fly debris that cause’s a great deal of the damage. The flying debris from your weak built home will be flying around hitting other homes that may be more strongly constructed. Once compromised a home can blow up much like a balloon blows up creating damage that may not otherwise occur.
While you and most others don’t discuss this topic very often I can assure you that this topic has been scientifically studied by the world’s leading experts and I have read some of their findings for years.
The studies have discovered that for very little additional cost home can be made far stronger.

Florida building codes are basically what we need for new construction IMHO in Oklahoma.
Similar building codes would reduce damage, death, and injuries and the associated cost for many generations. It would reduce the cost of lifelong lasting injures that the state is often force to pick up the cost for.

I think we have reached a point in our society that you shouldn’t have the right to construct something that would likely present an unnecessary hazard to your neighbor’s for many generations to come and likely for a very long time after you have died…

Stronger building codes are like very, very cheap insurance that will last for generations make our life’s more secure and over a very long period of time pay for them self’s

Always Remember
“Damage to most houses in the tornado path could have been greatly minimized with better construction. It IS possible to make an existing home more wind-resistant from strong winds, hurricanes, and even weaker tornado winds, at reasonable cost”
And that’s why we need stronger home build codes in Oklahoma… When other states do this it’s not difficult.

[ou48A]

The fallacy of human supremacy tends to arise after moments like these.

All the technology in the world is not going to save you from a direct hit from an F5 tornado. New building standards are not going to help your home withstand 300+ mph winds.

Wind speeds at that level bend rebar. And I'm pretty sure I heard stories of safe rooms failing. Unless you plan on making everyone live underground, there really is little way to protect yourself in a tornado that size outside of a good ol storm cellar or, at the very lest, a certain level of weather awareness.

I wouldn't mind if the state brought back credits for building storm shelters.

Building a home that would survive a direct EF5 hit is not the goal.

[ou48A]

Yeah, I don't view this as any different that plumbing and electrical codes. Things like strapping on rafters, etc. and an underground shelter don't really add that much to the cost of a new home's construction.

Exactly right
It’s pretty cheap to build a much stronger home

[venture]

We'll probably see rebate checks for shelters come back, so hopefully we see enough money for that. Doing a quick search has Oklahoma Shelters quoting 4x6 safe rooms starting at $3800 and underground shelters at about $2500. So putting things into perspective, the $40 million the state is spending on the Indian museum no tribe seemed to want, would get over 26,000 underground shelters.

As we are seeing though. Safe rooms are great, but they aren't going to withstand the 200+ mph winds of an EF-5 tornado (noting that they've modified the wind speeds with the newer Enhanced Fujita scale. Jim Gardner on KWTV said he has yet to find a standing safe room in any house - if any even had them to begin with.

It reinforces Gary's line of "underground is always best."

[venture]

Building a home that would survive a direct EF5 hit is not the goal.

Indeed. My family tested a newer home design a few years ago up north. The exterior walls are made with a new concrete with steel reinforcements, the roof is all hurricane compliant, and some other design improvements to where it can withstand winds of 130-150 mph. Many of those improvements and what OU48 is speaking of should all be basic requirements here. For no other reason to even protect against damaging wind events as well.

[Plutonic Panda]

You may not want the government telling you anything and I really don’t either, but let me tell you why it’s in this case it’s in everyone best interest.
Fly debris that cause’s a great deal of the damage. The flying debris from your weak built home will be flying around hitting other homes that may be more strongly constructed. Once compromised a home can blow up much like a balloon blows up creating damage that may not otherwise occur.
While you and most others don’t discuss this topic very often I can assure you that this topic has been scientifically studied by the world’s leading experts and I have read some of their findings for years.
The studies have discovered that for very little additional cost home can be made far stronger.

Florida building codes are basically what we need for new construction IMHO in Oklahoma.
Similar building codes would reduce damage, death, and injuries and the associated cost for many generations. It would reduce the cost of lifelong lasting injures that the state is often force to pick up the cost for.

I think we have reached a point in our society that you shouldn’t have the right to construct something that would likely present an unnecessary hazard to your neighbor’s for many generations to come and likely for a very long time after you have died…

Stronger building codes are like very, very cheap insurance that will last for generations make our life’s more secure and over a very long period of time pay for them self’s

Always Remember
“Damage to most houses in the tornado path could have been greatly minimized with better construction. It IS possible to make an existing home more wind-resistant from strong winds, hurricanes, and even weaker tornado winds, at reasonable cost”
And that’s why we need stronger home build codes in Oklahoma… When other states do this it’s not difficult.

+1

[ou48A]

As can be seen on this graphic not all the winds in EF - 5 tornados do EF-5 damage and while it would be costly to build homes that would substantially survive EF 4’s and EF’s 5, it’s not very costly to build homes that would substanually survive the EF2 and lower rated tornados. The Moore tornados, as with most other strong tornadoes, have done a great deal of damage with their weaker winds. Better building codes would in most cases make the serious damage path much smaller.

Homes and other buildings built with better building codes would likely have lowered insurance premiums that over a long period of time would probably save enough money to pay for most of the items that strengthen a home/ business building. Not to mention the added safety for people, pets and their belongings.

Eventually the insurance industry is likely going to require better building codes for new construction, rather we want it or not.

[Teo9969]

As can be seen on this graphic not all the winds in EF - 5 tornados do EF-5 damage and while it would be costly to build homes that would substantially survive EF 4’s and EF’s 5, it’s not very costly to build homes that would substanually survive the EF2 and lower rated tornados. The Moore tornados, as with most other strong tornadoes, have done a great deal of damage with their weaker winds. Better building codes would in most cases make the serious damage path much smaller.

Homes and other buildings built with better building codes would likely have lowered insurance premiums that over a long period of time would probably save enough money to pay for most of the items that strengthen a home/ business building. Not to mention the added safety for people, pets and their belongings.

Eventually the insurance industry is likely going to require better building codes for new construction, rather we want it or not.

In Oklahoma, this has to be the case. Insurance companies are getting demolished in this state, and it's only going to get worse as we continue to grow.

Even so, on some level, building stronger buildings is only going to go so far in limiting debris. There will still be vehicles, fences, large animals, old buildings, earth, loose rocks, grills, large hail, etc.

[ljbab728]

Something that occurred to me that I had almost totally forgotten is my early grade school. I attended the Pleasant Valley rural one room school just NW of Norman in the 50's. It had a storm cellar directly next to the school. We never used it while I was there except to play on the cement top, but having a safe place for school children is not a new concept.

[flintysooner]

I think those oil field shelters are really interesting. Red Dog Mobile Shelters.

Forgot the link: http://www.reddogmobileshelters.com/

[OKCTalker]

Let's get some hard information into the discussion. Does anyone know how many Oklahoma structures - residential and commercial - exist in Oklahoma, and how many of those sustain structural damage or are destroyed in a year? Multiply by 40 or 50 to get the useful life of a "typical" structure and you'll determine the lifetime chances that a building is significantly affected. I'm not talking about a roof totalled by hail (property damage), this discussion is about constructing to a level above what we currently have in order to safely protect the occupants. My hunch is less than one percent.

Do we want to increase costs for everyone when only __ percent of the structures will be affected during their lifetimes?

[OKCTalker]

And on the front page of today's NY Times Web edition: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/22/us...y.html?hp&_r=0

- The city of Moore has no community shelter because a 15-minute warning is not enough time to get to safety and because, “overall, people face less risk by taking shelter in a reasonably well-constructed residence.”
- Since their 2011 tornado, the city of Joplin refused to require storm shelters in new homes because they were "cost prohibitive."
- A 2002 study indicated that construction quality in Moore is no better than in homes built before 1999: Few homes built since then had walls secured to foundations with bolts, and only six of 40 had safe rooms (15%).
- Legislation was considered 18 months ago to require shelters, but was rejected because of the cost.
- Homebuilder Mike Gilles, former president of the Oklahoma State Homebuilders Association, constructs shelters in all of his homes but says, "Most homebuilders would be against that because we think the market ought to drive what people are putting in the houses, not the government.”

So - even in the cities of Moore and Joplin, they neither offer community shelters, nor do they require them in new construction.

[flintysooner]

The beauty of the Red Dog shelters is that they're mobile and could be rented or deployed temporarily for high risk months.

[venture]

Well...Moore doesn't - Yet.

Moore mayor: New law needed to keep people safe - CNN.com

The mayor of tornado-ravaged Moore, Oklahoma, will push for a law requiring storm shelters or safe rooms in new homes, he told CNN Wednesday. "We'll try to get it passed as soon as I can," Glenn Lewis said. The ordinance would apply to single-family and multi-family homes.

This is definitely going to be a big political vs. emotional issue because your typical Oklahoma conservative wants government out of business and personal lives. However, the continued frequency of significant tornadoes - especially in Central Oklahoma with two EF-5s in back to back years, is going to be a driver to trump those typical views.

We'll see how this progresses. This is where your typical conservative viewpoints get tested to the max. Whether its for mandated shelters or accepting federal aid for disaster relief (which this state ranks #3 at accepting). The whole "keep Washington out of our lives" gets really muddied right about now.

My point of view on this.

- Community shelters are a no go unless they are in a mobile home park - then I feel they should be absolutely mandated.
- Safe rooms will need to be revisited on their effectiveness to take a battering of winds for extended periods of time. Yes EF-4/EF-5 winds are rare, but we need to make sure they are failing if a tornado is only moving at 10 mph and beat on it for 2 minutes. I don't think we've seen any video yet of a safe room surviving this tornado.
- Mandating storm shelters in new construction is something that seriously needs to be considered. The frequency of impacts we have here is just too high to ignore. No - not everyone gets hit, but we are in a much higher frequency here than say SE Oklahoma.

It'll be a lively debate I'm sure.

[soonerguru]

Well...Moore doesn't - Yet.

Moore mayor: New law needed to keep people safe - CNN.com


This is definitely going to be a big political vs. emotional issue because your typical Oklahoma conservative wants government out of business and personal lives. However, the continued frequency of significant tornadoes - especially in Central Oklahoma with two EF-5s in back to back years, is going to be a driver to trump those typical views.

We'll see how this progresses. This is where your typical conservative viewpoints get tested to the max. Whether its for mandated shelters or accepting federal aid for disaster relief (which this state ranks #3 at accepting). The whole "keep Washington out of our lives" gets really muddied right about now.

My point of view on this.

- Community shelters are a no go unless they are in a mobile home park - then I feel they should be absolutely mandated.
- Safe rooms will need to be revisited on their effectiveness to take a battering of winds for extended periods of time. Yes EF-4/EF-5 winds are rare, but we need to make sure they are failing if a tornado is only moving at 10 mph and beat on it for 2 minutes. I don't think we've seen any video yet of a safe room surviving this tornado.
- Mandating storm shelters in new construction is something that seriously needs to be considered. The frequency of impacts we have here is just too high to ignore. No - not everyone gets hit, but we are in a much higher frequency here than say SE Oklahoma.

It'll be a lively debate I'm sure.

I wasn't too impressed with Moore's mayor when I saw him on Lawrence O'Donnell, but I'm impressed with this. It will not add much to the construction costs for new homes to add these, and they need to be BELOW GROUND, not safe rooms.