OKC Council rips "embarrasing" state legislature

[adaniel]

http://kfor.com/2012/04/18/okc-counc...-state-senate/

Thank you city council! Long overdue...I really hope some of the local governments start putting pressure on the mouth breathers at the state capitol.

[soonerguru]

What a flimsy piece by Channel 4. No surprise, there, of course. But it is heartening to see our city council begin to comment on the stupidity of our loony right-wing legislature.

[Of Sound Mind]

Our state legislature... and more specifically, our state legislators, are more than embarrassing... they are hurting our image when it comes to companies looking to Oklahoma for relocation or expansion.

With all the REAL challenges facing our state, I'm continually amazed at how much time is wasted on peripheral issues that shouldn't even be brought up or dealt with until the states REAL troubles are resolved — specifically fiscal/budget issues, subpar roads and bridges (and half-assed construction efforts and plans, like the 235/44 interchange), pitiful education system, etc. Instead, we're worrying about the pressing "personhood" issue (why is this so urgent) or fetuses being in food (is this really a problem right now?) or usurping local control of local issues (like mentioned above).

No wonder our legislature is the (very embarrassing) laughing stock of the country. All the good and positive PR that the Thunder brings to our city and state is so easily undone by the infantile antics of our state's "representatives."

[Larry OKC]

Oklahoma is not alone in embarrassing legislators (probably can find folks in every state that think theirs are the worst). Case in point, in a recent Gazette it was talking about Wyoming(?) was doing some sort of task force looking into the possibility of succession (wasn't that issue decided by a little thing called the Civil War?) and getting their own Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines. An amendment was added to see abut purchasing their own aircraft carrier (never mind they are a land locked state). The amendment failed but it noted that 20+ legislators voted for it!

I will agree that one person shouldn't be allowed to kill any bill. Too many bills (both good and bad) are treated this way. Not even a committee should be allowed to kill it. Personally think that ideally all of the committees be abolished (the Oklahoman has reported numerous times that 90% of the committees NEVER even meet). If they want to keep the committee for whatever reason (its a power/prestige thing), then let them stand and let the committee make their recommendation to their colleagues if a bill should pass or fail and let the full Hose/Senate vote on it. The way it is now, the only bills that are even offered the chance for full consideration are those the committee recommends.

[Midtowner]

Abolish the committee system? So you just want to have lobbyists write all the bills then? (instead of just most of 'em?)

[Larry OKC]

Isn't that what is happening now? If it worked the way it is supposed to, we could keep it but when it doesn't function correctly you either fix it or get rid of it. I think if a legislator puts his name as the "author" of a bill, he needs to at the very least actually read the bill and preferably actually written the bill. If someone else writes the bil, then they shouldn't be listed as its "author" but rather its "sponsor" or something similar. Every session some bill passes and then something comes out and they claim they didn't know this-or-that was in the bill. i also think that no legislator should be allowed to vote on a bill unless they have read the bill. The average person gets the idea that they do but they don't. That impression is reinforced by the Daily Journal's of each body (where they falsely state that the bill was read aloud (think the term is "read at length") when that can't possibly be the case. Maybe the title of the bill was read out loud but in very few instances is the complete body of the bill read out loud. Some bills are hundreds of pages long and they aren't even available in their final form until shortly before action is taken on them (even though there are 'rules" requiring advance publication, the rules are often suspended or ignored). Then there are cases where the title of the bill is the exact opposite of what the bill contains/will do or may not even have anything to do with what the title says. Then there are committee substitutes that strip the entire language of a bill and replace it with their version. All to often committee votes come down to a vote for my bill, I'll vote for yours type of thing and they are just going by what someone else has told them the bill is about. We supposedly have representative democracy, and if only a select few legislators are even on the committee, that means only those people that are their constituents have any representation. When it comes down to a chairman of a committee deciding the fate of a bill, that increases the disenfranchisement even further (or is it farther?)

[GaryOKC6]

Oklahoma is not alone in embarrassing legislators (probably can find folks in every state that think theirs are the worst). Case in point, in a recent Gazette it was talking about Wyoming(?) was doing some sort of task force looking into the possibility of succession (wasn't that issue decided by a little thing called the Civil War?) and getting their own Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines. An amendment was added to see abut purchasing their own aircraft carrier (never mind they are a land locked state). The amendment failed but it noted that 20+ legislators voted for it!

I will agree that one person shouldn't be allowed to kill any bill. Too many bills (both good and bad) are treated this way. Not even a committee should be allowed to kill it. Personally think that ideally all of the committees be abolished (the Oklahoman has reported numerous times that 90% of the committees NEVER even meet). If they want to keep the committee for whatever reason (its a power/prestige thing), then let them stand and let the committee make their recommendation to their colleagues if a bill should pass or fail and let the full Hose/Senate vote on it. The way it is now, the only bills that are even offered the chance for full consideration are those the committee recommends.

You are correct that it is not only an Oklahoma thing. I would also add that it is not a "Right" or "Left" wing issue either. A famous left wing politician Gene Stipe killed every workers compensation reform bill that came his way at the committee level for the 50 years that he was in the state senate. That ended up eventually making Oklahoma the 4th highest cost state for workers comp. It ran off manufacturers and other high risk companies, most went to Texas. He was part of the good old boy system that built things the way they are today. The shady part of the whole thing is that Mr. Stipe owned the largest workers comp law firm in the state. Conflict of interest perhaps? It continues today on both sides of the aisle.

[kevinpate]

...The way it is now, the only bills that are even offered the chance for full consideration are those the committee recommends.

Not entirely correct, but mostly so.

The flip side is, think about it a bit first. Quite a few oddities make it to the floor as it is, and that's with active committee culling. The law of unintended consequences definitely arises if every piece of hair brain fluff guff has an equal shot at full chamber consideration.

in my opinion, long live the committee system! Lots of bad stuff dies there, as it should. And sadly, politics being politics, some good passes away prematurely as well. Some of that gets a Lazarus treatment though (as does some odd stuff from time to time.)

Now, if you wanna propose an up/down vote on every bill assigned in a committee, I don't mind that but they'll be busy busy bus unless someone turns back the file as many as ya want spigot a notch or two.

All in all, the system is both terrible, and better than most any other process available.

[GaryOKC6]

Not entirely correct, but mostly so.

The flip side is, think about it a bit first. Quite a few oddities make it to the floor as it is, and that's with active committee culling. The law of unintended consequences definitely arises if every piece of hair brain fluff guff has an equal shot at full chamber consideration.

in my opinion, long live the committee system! Lots of bad stuff dies there, as it should. And sadly, politics being politics, some good passes away prematurely as well. Some of that gets a Lazarus treatment though (as does some odd stuff from time to time.)

Now, if you wanna propose an up/down vote on every bill assigned in a committee, I don't mind that but they'll be busy busy bus unless someone turns back the file as many as ya want spigot a notch or two.

All in all, the system is both terrible, and better than most any other process available.

Agreed. You make a good point.

[bluedogok]

I still think EVERY bill should be voted on by the full legislature, on the record and no attachments or riders, every bill should pass/fail on its own merits. Then maybe they couldn't pass thousands of bills/resolutions every session.

[Midtowner]

I still think EVERY bill should be voted on by the full legislature, on the record and no attachments or riders, every bill should pass/fail on its own merits. Then maybe they couldn't pass thousands of bills/resolutions every session.

And folks who don't know how the Oklahoma legislature works shouldn't make recommendations like this. Attachments? Riders?

We have a single subject rule here folks. Read the Oklahoma Constitution. I know it's unpopular, even among legislators, but an attachment or rider (whatever that is) that isn't germane is going to render the entire piece of legislation null and void.

And "thousands" of bills every session? Not even close. Sorry to pick on you, but your ignorance of state politics is pretty typical. As Sid said, if we all just paid attention to what was going on in the capitol and voted for the best candidate instead of the (D) or (R), then we'd be in a much better place.

[bluedogok]

I have been out of Oklahoma for 10 years but what goes on there seems to get worse every year. In my statement I was talking more along the lines of the federal system. I know that in Oklahoma you can just kill them in committee instead of attaching something to something unrelated to kill it like what happens in DC, it still happens but as you stated, just with "related" bills. I saw it happen 25 years ago when I was more active in politics at the state level in Oklahoma, pretty much that exposure to politics soured me on the entire political process, local, state and federal. I just find them pretty much all corrupt now if they stay there any amount of time, if you aren't disgusted by what goes on then you are pretty much part of the problem. Voting new people in does absolutely nothing because either they get disgusted and leave or become assimilated, the bureaucracies are entrenched and are really the ones running things and help keep getting the crooks re-elected. Texas is just as bad if not worse, I haven't really looked at much at Colorado politics yet.

[Midtowner]

I have been out of Oklahoma for 10 years but what goes on there seems to get worse every year. In my statement I was talking more along the lines of the federal system. I know that in Oklahoma you can just kill them in committee instead of attaching something to something unrelated to kill it like what happens in DC, it still happens but as you stated, just with "related" bills. I saw it happen 25 years ago when I was more active in politics at the state level in Oklahoma, pretty much that exposure to politics soured me on the entire political process, local, state and federal. I just find them pretty much all corrupt now if they stay there any amount of time, if you aren't disgusted by what goes on then you are pretty much part of the problem. Voting new people in does absolutely nothing because either they get disgusted and leave or become assimilated, the bureaucracies are entrenched and are really the ones running things and help keep getting the crooks re-elected. Texas is just as bad if not worse, I haven't really looked at much at Colorado politics yet.

Term limits have given lobbyists all of the institutional knowledge and power in our state government. It's a sad state of affairs. I do know good men in the state legislature, but the sort of boilerplate tripe they have to run on (and don't believe in) is just disgusting.

I retract my statement about your ignorance. I thought that since this was a thread about the Oklahoma legislature, you were commenting solely on that.

[Bunty]

Do the matches or the arsonists start the fires?

The process is fine. We just need to stop voting for certain people. Sadly, it is really that simple.

Ha, I think it's too complex and offensive of an idea for the average Republican to vote for a Democrat to be rid of the Republican legislator who wanted a law to ban putting fetuses in food. I wonder if that Republican legislator had anyone file against him? It will be a bad reflection of the Oklahoma Republican Party, if no Republican challenged him.

[venture]

Do the matches or the arsonists start the fires?

The process is fine. We just need to stop voting for certain people. Sadly, it is really that simple.

Talking points and catch phrases are all it takes to the vote of the sheep out there. Congress has a 14% approve rating, but most will win re-election. The general American public is politically stupid. They vote according to a color chart (red or blue), what someone tells them, or because they can't see through the BS. Nothing we can do about it. It would be interesting though to see what happens if voting was required by law, giving everyone the first Tuesday in November time off as a holiday, but also giving people the chance to select "abstain" on a ballot (still required to submit one). Would we get the same results we do now?

Ah well. For now the mice will continue to follow the piper. Faith, Family and Freedom!

[Bunty]

Term limits have given lobbyists all of the institutional knowledge and power in our state government. It's a sad state of affairs. I do know good men in the state legislature, but the sort of boilerplate tripe they have to run on (and don't believe in) is just disgusting.

Maybe term limits should be modified. Those who get term limited out can try reentering their office after being out of it for a term or two. I think if I was a legislator I would want to try having fun by taking money from lobbyists and doing the opposite of what they wanted.

[NickFiggins]

We could just abolish the House and create a Unicameral legislature like they have in Nebraska, no more conference committees, no more passing the blame, and 101 less legislators. Think about all the true waste that could be cut, and how much easier it would be for citizens to follow the legislature.

[RadicalModerate]

A famous left wing politician Gene Stipe killed every workers compensation reform bill that came his way at the committee level for the 50 years that he was in the state senate . . . The shady part of the whole thing is that Mr. Stipe owned the largest workers comp law firm in the state. Conflict of interest perhaps?

I think it should be illegal for lawyers to be lawmakers . . . Or even lobbyists.

[BDK]

I think it should be illegal for lawyers to be lawmakers . . . Or even lobbyists.

That's ridiculous. We have such poorly drafted laws because we don't have enough lawyers in the legislature. Exploitative conduct comes from all types, being an attorney reflects nothing about character.

[RadicalModerate]

I know it is ridiculous/not doable . . . But not any more ridiculous than the crap coming down from the government that we put up with every day.

[BDK]

I certainly agree that the product of the state legislature is pitiful, no doubt about that. If someone has a link on the percentage of attorneys occupying state legislative office, I'd bet it's less than a quarter of legislature.

[Wambo36]

And folks who don't know how the Oklahoma legislature works shouldn't make recommendations like this. Attachments? Riders?

We have a single subject rule here folks. Read the Oklahoma Constitution. I know it's unpopular, even among legislators, but an attachment or rider (whatever that is) that isn't germane is going to render the entire piece of legislation null and void.

And "thousands" of bills every session? Not even close. Sorry to pick on you, but your ignorance of state politics is pretty typical. As Sid said, if we all just paid attention to what was going on in the capitol and voted for the best candidate instead of the (D) or (R), then we'd be in a much better place.

The bolded part of your statement reflects what I personally believe to be the biggest problem with our political situation today. The straight party option on ballots should be removed so that people actually have to do a little research and know something about the people they are voting for. Too many people mark the R or D straight party box without having any idea about who they just voted for. This type of lazy voting is what gets us some of the idiots we have running the state today. I, like a lot of voters, find myself not identifying with either party anymore. They both seem to cater to the zealots on their respective fringes and I refuse to be a part of that.

[HewenttoJared]

Term limits have given lobbyists all of the institutional knowledge and power in our state government. It's a sad state of affairs. I do know good men in the state legislature, but the sort of boilerplate tripe they have to run on (and don't believe in) is just disgusting.

Interesting. I don't follow local politics too closely, but isn't the killing of the personhood bill a good sigh along these lines?

[Doug Loudenback]

Do the matches or the arsonists start the fires?

The process is fine. We just need to stop voting for certain people. Sadly, it is really that simple.

Bingo. Nail hit on the head by the venerable Sid Burgess. Even more sadly, as long as Oklahoma voters (speaking broadly, but I'm certainly including voters in the Okc metro) see themselves (as they seem want to do these days) as zombies who are predetermined vote for the Republican candidate (as the Republican party is defined these days) no matter what since a vote for the Republican ticket means a vote for righteousness and godliness, I don't see that the current makeup of the Legislature will change any time soon. Unless and until that change occurs, as it eventually will (everything cycles, don't you know) we are pretty much stuck in the shallow and stupid waters of people like Sally Kern. The Tea Party candidates from an obscure Baptist Church in mid-western Oklahoma City for 2 council positions may have been roundly flogged in two spring 2011 city council elections, but, sadly, the Oklahoma Republican party is not short in supply of people who think the say way that those two failed candidates do.

On this particular matter, smoking, I say this as a smoker who enjoys going out on my front porch and having a smoke. Several. I smoke in my car when I go to hospitals where smoking is forbidden on campus. My only defense to smoking (other than addiction) is that I'm married to a Native American lady. Even though she beats on me to stop smoking, I sluff that off to her by noting that Native Americans elevated smoking to another and even spiritual level, and that's my claim to smoking legitimacy. But I do know that my claim is pretty thin.
But, hey, what's a smoker to do? Quit?

[Doug Loudenback]

Interesting. I don't follow local politics too closely, but isn't the killing of the personhood bill a good sign along these lines?

It's a small step for Oklahomans, but a huge step for mankind.