could okc metro garner ridership to support lightrail train system?

[decepticobra]

not too long ago, i read a story regarding that the greater okc metro area is in the early stages of planning a light rail system that would involve several lines and would be somewhat akin to the current dart rail lines that exist in the dallas metro area.

while i do feel okc area does have the potential, i also realize that okc is just on the economic rebound from years past that were dubbed as an oil bust. however the revitalization of bricktown and downtown are swinging business back into our favor.

personally, i would like to see at least ONE light rail line built now, or soon. ...a route that i do believe would garner consistant ridership and could spur the development of other future rail routes/lines for the okc metro.

the route the okc metro needs most right now is one that would serve from north to south (vice versa). it would basically run from norman and end its terminus in edmond. it would have stops at: ou campus, norman regional hospital, sooner mall, 19th and I-35 area in moore, moore hospital, bricktown, state capitol, penn square mall, ocu, quail springs mall, uco.

it could include other stops as well, or have stops that deviate from these altogether. this is just my idea of some stops i believe would be beneficial to the line. about 10 or 12 stops somewhere between norman and edmond would be enough stops to pick up enough riders to support the operating costs for the line, but not too many stops to make riding it mundane or tidious.

what are your views?

[stlokc]

This issue has been explored with some depth elsewhere on this site. My own feelings are mixed. The OKC metro area is certainly getting to the population level that other cities have reached when planning their own light rail lines, especially considering it would take a number of years to put it together. I personally would love to see such a system, with a north to south orientation from Edmond to Norman, and a secondary line from the Airport to downtown and on to Midwest City. I know nothing of the details of what has been talked about, although other posters on this site do.

The problem, of course, is the sprawl and lack of density in OKC, and the relative easy traffic. Unless y

[stlokc]

Sorry. Unless you live right near a station, you're going to be driving some distance just to get to the light-rail line to begin with. My bet is lots of people would wind up just going ahead and driving the rest of the way. And lots of Oklahomans love their land. Makes it hard and expensive. That's why we've got to encourage density and clusters of development so that building a line makes economic sense.

Oklahoma City has below-average salaries. If we wake up in 5 years with a nuclear Iran and a billion more cars in China and the developing world, we may have $8 or $10 gasoline and OKC is going to wish it had another commuting option.

[BBatesokc]

As unpopular as my opinion is, IMO it will not pay for itself and we'll all be paying the bill regardless if we ever use it and like the Heartland Flyer it will be devoid of even 50% capacity.

[Snowman]

not too long ago, i read a story regarding that the greater okc metro area is in the early stages of planning a light rail system that would involve several lines and would be somewhat akin to the current dart rail lines that exist in the dallas metro area.

while i do feel okc area does have the potential, i also realize that okc is just on the economic rebound from years past that were dubbed as an oil bust. however the revitalization of bricktown and downtown are swinging business back into our favor.

personally, i would like to see at least ONE light rail line built now, or soon. ...a route that i do believe would garner consistant ridership and could spur the development of other future rail routes/lines for the okc metro.

the route the okc metro needs most right now is one that would serve from north to south (vice versa). it would basically run from norman and end its terminus in edmond. it would have stops at: ou campus, norman regional hospital, sooner mall, 19th and I-35 area in moore, moore hospital, bricktown, state capitol, penn square mall, ocu, quail springs mall, uco.

it could include other stops as well, or have stops that deviate from these altogether. this is just my idea of some stops i believe would be beneficial to the line. about 10 or 12 stops somewhere between norman and edmond would be enough stops to pick up enough riders to support the operating costs for the line, but not too many stops to make riding it mundane or tidious.

what are your views?

The studies the city has done so far favor Commuter rail for the Edmond, Norman & Tinker routes. Light rail looked more favorable in some zones but none of them were even in the first round that might happen. In any case the experts said the downtown area needs mass transit to distribute people before implementing the regional rail system.

[decepticobra]

yeah, i forgot to mention tinker as a possible stop...although looking at the possible stops ive already mentioned, including adding tinker to the mix would make for a lot of meandering from norman to edmond. ...maybe a rail spur to tinker/mwc somewhere along the shopping mecca on 29th street. ...thats all there really is to mwc anymore. 20 years ago 29th street was commercially dead, and the commercial hub of mwc seemed focused on midwest and reno where target and walmart could practically stare each other down competitively on opposite ends of reno. ..today that area is a shopper's graveyard.

back on track, and by that i mean train tracks...which are some tracks id love to see built connecting norman to edmond, as everyone knows how chaotic the traffic congestion can be on I-35 and I-235 during rush hour, a rail line only makes viable sense to help alleviate these commuter corridors.

[BoulderSooner]

OKC to MWC (tinker) OKC to edmond okc to Norman okc to yukon ... and okc NW (adventure line) are all part of a multi city funded AA process that is just now starting ...

they would be commuter line not Light rail ...

also to bates point ... do you think roads pay for themselves??

[BBatesokc]

OKC to MWC (tinker) OKC to edmond okc to Norman okc to yukon ... and okc NW (adventure line) are all part of a multi city funded AA process that is just now starting ...

they would be commuter line not Light rail ...

also to bates point ... do you think roads pay for themselves??

That's not even comparable.

[BoulderSooner]

That's not even comparable.

i disagree

[BBatesokc]

Roads are a necessity - Lightrail is not. And that's just the beginning of the differences that don't make the two comparable.

[HangryHippo]

Roads are a necessity - Lightrail is not. And that's just the beginning of the differences that don't make the two comparable.

That's one. What are your other reasons that supposedly make these systems incomparable?

[Just the facts]

Roads are a necessity - Lightrail is not. And that's just the beginning of the differences that don't make the two comparable.

If you have good rail system most roads aren't necessary. Think how much money would be freed up if no one had to own a car.

[BBatesokc]

If you have good rail system most roads aren't necessary. Think how much money would be freed up if no one had to own a car.

I prefer to concern myself with reality.

When this city can get a bus system that proves effective as an alternate means of transportation people are willing to forego cars for then you might have my support.

[kevinpate]

... Think how much money would be freed up if no one had to own a car.

And suburbia housing additions would all be spooky little ghost towns if folks would just load their bikes and toys and what not on u-hauls and move on into the nearest urban core.

Both possibilities are merely fantasies on the large scale here on a more practical planet, as proven time and time again by the inhabitants.

Not opposed to light rail. Just can't think of a community I've been to, ever, either on-line or via boots on pebbles, where the total populace could get by sans vehicles. Though i must admit, I do sort of like a vision of a small island, a big ol lotto win keeping the lights on and flipping a coin to decide if I'm gonna stroll to the other side or kayak around to the other side.

[rcjunkie]

If you have good rail system most roads aren't necessary. Think how much money would be freed up if no one had to own a car.

No one needed a car, and you get from station to final destination by ? (mobile aircraft, twinkling of nose, big wheel, horse drawn cart)

[Sheetkeecker]

No one needed a car, and you get from station to final destination by ? (mobile aircraft, twinkling of nose, big wheel, horse drawn cart)

I still have my Big Wheel. Lots of miles on it.

[BBatesokc]

I still have my Big Wheel. Lots of miles on it.

I want the electric car the guy built that looks just like an oversized Big Wheel.

The debate when I was a kid...... Big Wheel vs. Green Machine!

[ou48A]

If you have good rail system most roads aren't necessary. .

A world of fantasy and candy land^.

Good roads are necessary for a prosperous society.

Passenger Rail / light rail are best used to augment and help decongest crowded situations, but even rail options can become over crowded.

You cannot haul farm products from every farm to market on poor roads, like we had many years ago.
Many goods and services that make life better would not be feasible without a network of good roads that allow a relative rapid response.

[Just the facts]

I have been to several place where I didn't need a car. In fact, having a car would have been a burden. I lived in Philadelphia for 2 months and never sat in a car one time.

[Just the facts]

A world of fantasy and candy land^.

Good roads are necessary for a prosperous society.

Passenger Rail / light rail are best used to augment and help decongest crowded situations, but even rail options can become over crowded.

You cannot haul farm products from every farm to market on poor roads, like we had many years ago.
Many goods and services that make life better would not be feasible without a network of good roads that allow a relative rapid response.

You missed the point. My subdivision has 1200 residents and 4 miles of road. Do you think 300 people per mile is reasonable?

[BBatesokc]

I could conceivably live in NYC and not need a car - but comparing OKC to NYC is ludicrous. Can't speak for Philly, as I've never been there.

[betts]

There's nothing wrong with planning for the future, because it's going to take some time to implement even commuter rail. If we could decrease car traffic by even 10 to 25% we would improve air quality and decrease wear and tear and congestion on our roads. There are people living in Oklahoma City who would rather not drive a car, or who would rather use a car infrequently. After driving from Norman to OKC during rush hour a while back, I suspect there are people who would be delighted to ride past those sitting in traffic on a train, were it an option. As was noted, however, we need a better system to distribute people once they arrive downtown. That might be the best argument for a phase II extension of the streetcar to the Health Sciences Center first, actually, as it is a significant employer relative to areas such as 23rd St. and OCU.

[NoOkie]

I could conceivably live in NYC and not need a car - but comparing OKC to NYC is ludicrous. Can't speak for Philly, as I've never been there.

One of my sisters gets by in Portland just fine without a car.

Doesn't alleviate the need for roads though, buses make up a large part of their public transportation network. When I was there visiting, I was able to get around without renting a car with little to no inconvenience. I think a big factor in this was the frequency of their buses(every 15 minutes during peak hours), I do recall waiting a bit for the train to down town.

[semisimple]

OKC doesn't need light/commuter rail now or anytime in the forseeable future. The highway system in OKC is more than adequate with remarkably little congestion even at rush hour. I would much rather see money directed towards developing a more urban environment in the downtown area first, along with a streetcar focused on downtown-area transit, before a comprehensive light rail system is built connecting downtown to the suburban areas of the city and suburbs like Edmond and Norman (as exists in DFW, for instance). Instead, OKC could take advantage of its highways, build up good express bus service to the suburbs and earn a dedicated ridership before jumping ahead to invest billions in light rail.

A light or commuter rail system would fail miserably in OKC for one simple reason: driving directly to your desintation is faster and much more convenient. This is exactly the problem with the commuter rail line in Austin, which has only ~1700 riders per day with 10x the subsidy per passenger of the bus system (i.e., a waste of resources). By the time you park at a station, wait on a train, ride for 40 minutes on a train that stops a dozen times and goes no more than 50 mph, get off and walk several blocks to your destination, the trip has taken longer than if you had just driven directly--even with little Austin's big city-sized traffic problems. The rail system is also slower than the express bus routes that run from the suburbs into downtown. Clearly for the overwhelmingly vast majority of people in the Austin rail line's service area (a few hundred thousand at least), the comfort and convenience of driving outweighs the money saved in fuel costs by riding a train (or bus for that matter). You can be sure the results would be even worse in OKC.

[adaniel]

Well I wouldn't say that it would be a "miserable failure" for light rail to be in OKC, but it would be a bit tricky to pull it off. A Norman-Downtown-Edmond line could be done successfully, but anything outside of that would be risky. Truthfully, any midsized city with little traffic congestion will have trouble convincing the masses to give up their cars. The RailRunner System in Albuquerque (who's MSA is within 200K of ours) get like maybe 4K riders/day. A lot of that is due to the large number of tourists flying into ABQ and visiting SF as well as the large number of state workers working in SF but living in ABQ due to SF high housing costs. We obviously do not have that dynamic in OKC.

One thing that works in OKC's favor is that white collar employment is starting to coalesce around downtown. Cities like Austin, Dallas, etc. have more of their workforce in suburban office districts. Even the DART system in Dallas is a bit of a question mark and will be until more people start working downtown.

No doubt the bus service here could use some improvements, but investing in express bus service would be a waste IMO. Fair or not, bus service is viewed with far more negativity than trains in these parts due in large parts to socioeconomic stereotypes. In Dallas, it was not uncommon to see trains packed with standing room only at rush hour while buses are maybe 25% full.