OKC Future Water Woes...

[bucktalk]

After a recent trip to Canton Lake we were shocked to see how low the lake level is. Even if OKC asked for water to be released, the lake level is so low no water could come out of the dam spillway!!! Realizing OKC gets a portion of its water from Canton Lake I wonder how long it might be before OKC will consider water rationing unless we get beneficial rainfall...water woes are still with us.

[Snowman]

While it is very low, the army corp of engineer website indicates as of an hour from this post it is at 28% of what is capable of releasing from the preferred lake level. It has been around 27% since the last release in October and the last few heavy rains while hit the catchment area of Overholser and Hefner quite well, have almost entirely missed Canton.

[bluedogok]

Water isn't released from a spillway, most are overflow spillways. It is released from gates, even as low as Lake Travis is water could still be released to power hydroelectric generators or for downstream use from the gates.

[oneforone]

Honestly, I think it is time for Oklahoma City to be on a permeant odd even watering system. I think something needs to be done about sprinkler systems that spray more pavement then grass.

Some of the business water sprinklers I see running just waste water more than anything. You don't need five sprinklers on a section of grass you mow with one pass of a push mower. Not mention, you don't need to water the lawn every night. There are stretches of highway that only see water when it rains yet they are just as green as these business lawns. I would think 15 minutes of water properly distributed every couple days would be enough.

Sure, green lawns are nice just not at the cost of not having water for drinking, cleaning or fire fighting.

[Midtowner]

We'll be okay. Canton is only one of OKC's reservoirs. There are still others to the East. We also have a plan to vastly expand one of the existing reservoirs (I think Stanley Draper) within the next 15-20 years. OKC's water needs are being addressed much better than most other cities of our size.

[adaniel]

FWIW my parents hometown of Plano TX has already instituted once a month watering for about the past 6 months or so. They will review lake levels and if they are not adequetely filled by this spring then ALL outdoor watering is off. That means no driveway car washes, lawn watering except by hand, and only foundation soakers will be allowed. I know that in certain places in South and East TX they already have total bans on outdoor watering

I don't think Oklahoma in general is in bad as shape as TX, but last check on the NWS webpage I noticed that drought conditions are creeping back east. We have a lot of water now, but its a bit troubling to see no comprehensive water plan in place given the prospect that this area could be a in a long term drought.

[RadicalModerate]

This issue has been previously discussed, in depth. More than once.
It is now time that Water Wasters be penalized, discouraged and re-educated.
And not in some namby-pamby manner.

"Shunning" (and plastering their vehicles and business with leaflets--in addition to the fines) might be a start.

[Midtowner]

On the contrary... OKC's abundant water reserves and planned improvements should be a huge draw for businesses who want to buy into a community long-term. We don't face the same issues as Plano. I don't care what's going on in North Texas. We aren't even remotely in the same boat. With the Atoka pipeline and Sardis coming online in the next few years, we're tapping into two lakes which have abundant rainfall in their regions. We're set for the foreseeable future. We don't need water rationing or any of that business to be alright. Things haven't gotten anywhere close to dire. Are lakes a little low? Sure, but we're nowhere close to being in trouble.

[RadicalModerate]

Are we really ready to violate yet another treaty with "The Indians"?
(at least as expressed by at least two tribes on TV)

Please allow me to amend The Shunning (and worthless leaflet vandalism) by suggesting that WaterWasters be required to carry wooden buckets--two of them, on yokes--from the recently renamed "Oklahoma River" to "The Bricktown Canal".

This will probably encourage application of the correct settings for the automatic timers on the offenders' lawn watering systems. And with their free hands they could pick up some trash/litter along the way. Including the wind-blown protest leaflets.

[Midtowner]

Are we really ready to violate yet another treaty with "The Indians"?
(at least as expressed by at least two tribes on TV)

Those tribes are just angling for free money. The State has called their bluff and asked for an adjudication of all of the water rights in that part of Oklahoma. The treaties don't cover the water rights. What the tribes *think* they are asserting is their rights under the Winters case. The trouble is that the Winters case was an Arizona case tried back in the very early twentieth century. It held that the purpose of settling the tribes in reservations was to get them to integrate into white society. Thus, there was an implied right of water to irrigate all of the irrigable land on their reservation.

First of all, that is very old precedent and could easily go a different direction today. Secondly, we're not in water-poor Arizona. We're talking about Eastern Oklahoma. To irrigate all of the land, the tribes can rely entirely on rainfall, and therefore, very arguably, under Winters, they are entitled to precisely nothing out of our reservoirs.

The only real chink in our armor is that as part of the lawsuit with the chicken farmers, Drew Edmondson admitted that the Cherokees (who aren't a party to the Sardis case) had "substantial" water rights in that particular watershed. The tribes are capitalizing on that.

[RadicalModerate]

The ["water rights"] of [the "natives/aborigials unto the tenth generation or whatever"] need to be preserved.

Including, of course, so-called "angling" rights . . .
Which I think is covered by English Common Law.
You know . . . the ones invovling "fishing"
rather than "Pythagoras".

So . . . Maybe we could trade "Casino Earnings"
for water . . . With enough buffalo remains?

I am not "native-american" but I was born here.

And using the phrase "chink in the armor" . . .
well . . . fairly not PC in moi estimation . . . =)

[Midtowner]

Angling rights are riparian rights. Riparian rights inure to landowners who have land adjacent to navigable lakes and streams. At common law, riparian landowners can use as much water as they want to, so long as they don't materially injure downstream riparians. Oklahoma recognizes riparian rights, but only for domestic (i.e., indoor plumbing) type uses. Commercial applications such as irrigation or running a water park or fracking go through the OWRB and are subject to a permit system. That's permissible as all bodies of water in the state of Oklahoma are considered to be the property of the state of Oklahoma.

The common law was adopted into our legal system by way of the Oklahoma Constitution, but statutes, at least insofar as they are constitutional supersede the common law.

[RadicalModerate]

as soon as angling rights were combined and compared with riparin rights i knew that it was fruitless to raise an objection to English Common Law as applied to the (former Colonies) (not to mention the SpelunkianCaveExplorerswhofirstdiscoveredthepringf romwhich...et..

as a descendant of the vikings who visited a tip of canada--and then retreated from vinland--on account of the highly developed sense of history possessed by the native population in order to more correctly approximating and appropriating expenditures of risk and time alloted to raiding the monestaries on the east coast of what would become, eventually, the british empire/ireland i can only echo the "Hey
I'm Here Now" cry as long as individuals and corporations in the geographical confines of OKC needlessly water lawns . .
well . . . i guess "the battle cry" or The Great Whining . . . will continue.

I say: Let the so-called Indians/NativeAmericans have their promised "lakes".

Now . . .
Try that one in Haiku. =)

[RadicalModerate]

Edited to add:
"Those tribes are just angling for money" . . .

Is nearly as offensive to me--a non-native/[american]--as my quip about the money funnel into that thing south of the Interstate as compared to the other things in Anadarko and the former Miskelly Park in Choctaw that sort of pissed of a "real" Native American a while back.

Point Being:
The most corrupt and ineffectual "tribe/tribal leader here on The Rez . . .
Has more appreciation for the value of water than your average OKCMetroResident.

[Midtowner]

The lakes they were promised? Where was that? Sardis is an artificial lake built by the Army Corps of Engineers for the purpose of being a reservoir to the OKC metro area. In what possible reality do the tribes have a claim to it? Winters is the precedent they have and it really doesn't apply. Now that the OWRB has requested an adjudication of the watershed, the tribes have had their bluff called and are now going to get their noses rubbed in it for the next couple generations while this thing is worked out. The state of Oklahoma hasn't ponied up because the tribes' legal position is crap.

[BoulderSooner]

The lakes they were promised? Where was that? Sardis is an artificial lake built by the Army Corps of Engineers for the purpose of being a reservoir to the OKC metro area. In what possible reality do the tribes have a claim to it? Winters is the precedent they have and it really doesn't apply. Now that the OWRB has requested an adjudication of the watershed, the tribes have had their bluff called and are now going to get their noses rubbed in it for the next couple generations while this thing is worked out. The state of Oklahoma hasn't ponied up because the tribes' legal position is crap.

thank you for the educated recap of the tribes "case"

[Just the facts]

What percentage of water pumped in OKC gets dumped on the ground? Isn't it like 60%?

[Midtowner]

What percentage of water pumped in OKC gets dumped on the ground? Isn't it like 60%?

I'm not sure why this is a problem? Our vast water resources being so vast that we can just dump lots of water on the ground to keep our lawns lush and green is something which is a selling point for OKC over places like North Texas where their water shortages are really starting to catch up to them. Even in the long run, we can still be just about as wasteful of our water resources as we want to be with very little consequence.

I like to have a green lawn. When it was hot as hell last summer, I watered my yard twice a day every single day. My neighbors did as well. The lakes did not run dry. In fact, we have plenty of reserves still even after what has basically been a year-long drought.

[Midtowner]

thank you for the educated recap of the tribes "case"

Well, it is a case. I believe it's been filed in the Northern District of Oklahoma Federal Court. The tribes are still bellyaching about it, but since they've historically backed Democrats, their input at the state government is going to be negligible for the foreseeable future. Really, the tribes' only hope is to do a political end-around to circumvent the legal process and get Oklahoma to agree to give the tribes certain water rights that the tribes really have no legal claim to. Make no mistake. The tribes don't want this water for fishing or for tourism or even local agriculture. They want to sell it to Texas and make money.

[Dubya61]

The Choctaw Tribe certainly is making a case on the television media advertising their love of water and conservation. I always wonder what someone is selling when they don't seem to have a commodity to sell. I guess water is that commodity and they're claiming ownership of it in a state with loads of man-made lakes.

[Edgar]

Another chapter in the shameful tale of the dominant culture using might and influence to screw the indiginous peoples of America. The arrogant greedy hicks in OKC didn't make the water- it's the dammed Kiamichi Watershed in historical Chickasw lands and tribes always have a seat at the table per federal treaties well pre-dating statehood. OKC knows this along with their co-conspirators in the OWRB- why they turned down tirbes offer to help pay off the loan the state long ago reniged on. No one much cared about the lake during bust times when there was plenty of avaiable housing in OKC. Now that's it's become a valuable asset to exploit between energy sector busts the greed merchants are circiling. Be thankful people of SW Oklahoma the tribes now possess the wherewithall to put up a fight, and pray for what we all know is just. Native spirt is interwoven with God's blessing and the good stewardship of it. It'll be a tragedy if the hicks prevail and the water gets wasted so whiny self-centered people in Edmond can have a lush green lawn in the middle of an hiostoric drought.

[Midtowner]

Ah Edgar.. "greedy hicks in OKC," huh? You've been drinking the tribal propaganda kool aid. The tribes' legal position isn't a good one. That's why the OWRB called their bluff and asked for an adjudication of the watershed. It was long overdue anyhow. As I said before, the tribes' best argument is Winters, and it's a crap argument for a number of reasons, mostly being that SE OK gets lots of rainfall and due to topography isn't always practically irrigable. That's going to mean that the tribal claim to water is going to be minute if it's anything at all.

I mean "greed merchants"? Seriously...

Who do you think is a bigger economic driver for this state? The folks with the green lawns in Edmond or the tribes in SE OK?

[rcjunkie]

I'm not sure why this is a problem? Our vast water resources being so vast that we can just dump lots of water on the ground to keep our lawns lush and green is something which is a selling point for OKC over places like North Texas where their water shortages are really starting to catch up to them. Even in the long run, we can still be just about as wasteful of our water resources as we want to be with very little consequence.

I like to have a green lawn. When it was hot as hell last summer, I watered my yard twice a day every single day. My neighbors did as well. The lakes did not run dry. In fact, we have plenty of reserves still even after what has basically been a year-long drought.

I like my yard green as well, and I agree we have plenty of water, however, if your watering twice a day, you not watering correctly and definitely wasting water.

[city]

They want to sell it to Texas and make money.

And that's it in a nutshell!

[Midtowner]

I like my yard green as well, and I agree we have plenty of water, however, if your watering twice a day, you not watering correctly and definitely wasting water.

If it's 100+ degrees out and you have fescue, that seems to be the only thing to keep it alive. Especially since at the time, I was trying to get it established as our previous homeowners never watered and left our back yard a mess of red clay and weeds.