Whats so great about Edmond compared to OKC?

[rxis]

So whats so great about Edmond in comparison to OKC?
I recently heard some classmates talking about how Edmond is a much better place in every way than OKC? Seems that their biggest point was that the houses were much nicer.
I disagree because I like the centrality of OKC and I think there are many new luxury homes in the metro. If I lived in Edmond, I think I would have longer commutes and would end up limiting my driving to mostly places in Edmond to save time. I wouldn't like that.

[xrayman]

The same is said about every upper-class suburb outside of almost every big American city. This is a challenge for every city in almost every area you look. I'll throw out just a couple:

1. Education. Parents want their children to get the best education possible. Period. Comparing OKC and Edmond test scores is an embarrassment to our city. Maps for Kids or not. Every urban area district finds itself challenged by ever increasing numbers of immigrants who choose not to learn our language. This is very different from the immigration wave of years past. Assimilation was important then. Now, to assimilate to many immigrants is to "lose their identity and culture." This is having a huge impact on urban schooling.

2. Crime. See above.

These are challenges that Oklahoma City - and every other city in America - must address, sooner rather than later. Bill Gates recently said that American High Schools (especially in inner cities) are, (his exact word here), "obsolete." We all know the crime rates in our inner cities and, even now, in what were nice clean neighborhoods just 10-15 years ago. Property crimes, especially, are skyrocketing.

Those two points alone answer your question as to why even our former Mayor, of just a year ago, has chosen Edmond as his new home. These people are not to be blamed. The steps that need to be taken to reverse these trends are simply not possible in today's political climate - even in Oklahoma!

[JOHNINSOKC]

I think Edmond is a very upscale place, but I see Moore and far south OKC rapidly becoming the next Edmond. The growth in incomes and the huge high end homes going in make you think that the area will eventually become the wealthiest in the state within the next 5-10 years. Moore and Norman will eventually grow together into an endless urban area.

[mranderson]

I think Edmond is a very upscale place, but I see Moore and far south OKC rapidly becoming the next Edmond. The growth in incomes and the huge high end homes going in make you think that the area will eventually become the wealthiest in the state within the next 5-10 years. Moore and Norman will eventually grow together into an endless urban area.

There are parts of Edmond that are dumps. Also. Please do not underestimate south Oklahoma City. There have been upscale areas since before I was born. Plus, there have been VERY wealthy people there too. In fact, when my family bought my home in 1961, my area was the "Rivendel" of the time.

Moore. It may be changing, but it is still largely blue collar., low to medium income.

[soonerguru]

Xrayman,

That is an incredible oversimplification of the problems inner-city schools have. People speaking Spanish is not the reason the schools are suffering.

Inner-city schools have been in decline since the "white flight" of the late 1960s.

A lot of people who value education left the districts. Period. Public schools cannot choose which students they have. They take everyone, including children who receive no help at home and whose families don't put a premium on education the same as many suburban residents.

There are many poor, undereducated people living in the inner city who DO value education, so I am not trying to stereotype. But schools can only do so much to educate a child if they are not also getting help at home. It's sad, but it is true.

Also, there are many delinquent students (again, schools cannot choose which students they get), and teachers in inner-city schools spend an extraordinary amount of time on disciplinary, rather than educational, pursuits.

I don't blame anyone for wanting what is best for their child. The fact is, if half of the suburban families returned, en masse, to inner-city schools, the educational environment would greatly improve.

We need to come up with creative solutions, like the magnet schools, to improve the quality of inner city schools. Our system is truly separate but unequal.

I was luck to attend Norman Public Schools, where parents are not just involved at home, but also with the school itself, PTA, school board, etc. The things our elementary school PTA provided were ridiculous, and on a per-capita basis, the overall income of our district was not that great, probably upper middle class.

There aren't substantial PTAs or anything else for these inner-city schools. They are not supported by their community in the same way suburban schools are. That is just a fact.

[soonerguru]

xrayman,

Another thing I take issue with is your comment about crime. Your quote: "Property crimes, especially, are skyrocketing" is not borne out by the facts.

Crime rates overall have been going down since their peak in the early 1990s. OKC is no worse, and in fact is better, than it was a decade ago in the crime department.

[Midtowner]

xrayman,

Another thing I take issue with is your comment about crime. Your quote: "Property crimes, especially, are skyrocketing" is not borne out by the facts.

Crime rates overall have been going down since their peak in the early 1990s. OKC is no worse, and in fact is better, than it was a decade ago in the crime department.

True, but our crime is a serious issue. We still rank in many categories of crime as one of the worst cities in the nation (my info is 5 years old though, so I admit that weakness):

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004902.html

Here are some other numbers that bear out a few of the things xrayman is alleging:

Public Schools

* 3 High Schools
* 5 Middle Schools
* 13 Elementary Schools
* Total enrollment in the Edmond Public School District is (in 2000)17,079
* Overall Student/Teacher ratio is 20 to 1.
* 85% of graduating students attend college.
* ACT Scores in Edmond average 22.7 (The U.S. Average is 21.0)
* SAT Scores in Edmond average 1153 (The U.S. Average is 1019)

Percent of population (Edmond) w/ college degrees: 43.5%, (OKC): 22.5%

CRIME
# Edmond's crime rate is 38% below the national average.

-- Oklahoma City doubles most national crime stat averages (or did in 2002):
http://oklahomacity.areaconnect.com/crime1.htm

OKC is ranked #13 in a list of America's unsafest cities according to a CNN report based on 2001 crime statistics.

Income:
Average Household Income in 2000
Edmond: $74,484
OKC-MSA: $50,474

1990 2000 Growth Rate
Edmond 52,315 69,476 32.8%
OKC 444,719 506,132 13.8%
***

I think it is safe to say that there ARE differences between the two communities. I don't know that there are any statistics that show that crime is "skyrocketing" as xrayman alleges. However, it's pretty darned safe to say that public school system in Edmond is better, the crime rate is lower, property values are higher, growth is higher, etc. Those statements are borne out by the facts.

Not that OKC is a bad place to live, heck, I moved here from Edmond and love it! If I were raising children, though, they'd be in private schools, or I'd be in a suburb.

[soonerguru]

Midtowner,

I did not take issue with the fact that Edmond has better schools. That much is obvious.

I took issue with his bewildering comment that the reason inner-city schools aren't doing well is because there are so many students who come from Spanish-speaking homes.

Furthermore, his comment that property crimes are "skyrocketing" is simply false.

[Midtowner]

Agreed that "skyrocketing" doesn't happen with crime unless there are extreme outside influences. "Increasing gradually" and "already at a very high level" would be accurate, however, at least as far as current statistics will tell us.

How spanish-speaking kids are influencing education is something that's difficult to quantify. That they are ruining education for everyone else would be even more difficult to quantify. I wonder, do they keep statistics on who is ruining education for whom?

There seem to be several factors that contribute to the type of student found in a city, certainly language MAY be one of them, however, other factors such as household income, parent's highest level of education attained, # of siblings, crime rate of the area, etc. are better indications I would think. Edmond, having excellent #'s in all of those areas would seem to indicate that this assumption of mine is fairly on-point (or maybe it's a coincidence?)

[xrayman]

Xrayman,

That is an incredible oversimplification of the problems inner-city schools have. People speaking Spanish is not the reason the schools are suffering.

Inner-city schools have been in decline since the "white flight" of the late 1960s.

A lot of people who value education left the districts. Period. Public schools cannot choose which students they have. They take everyone, including children who receive no help at home and whose families don't put a premium on education the same as many suburban residents.

There are many poor, undereducated people living in the inner city who DO value education, so I am not trying to stereotype. But schools can only do so much to educate a child if they are not also getting help at home. It's sad, but it is true.

Also, there are many delinquent students (again, schools cannot choose which students they get), and teachers in inner-city schools spend an extraordinary amount of time on disciplinary, rather than educational, pursuits.

I don't blame anyone for wanting what is best for their child. The fact is, if half of the suburban families returned, en masse, to inner-city schools, the educational environment would greatly improve.

We need to come up with creative solutions, like the magnet schools, to improve the quality of inner city schools. Our system is truly separate but unequal.

I was luck to attend Norman Public Schools, where parents are not just involved at home, but also with the school itself, PTA, school board, etc. The things our elementary school PTA provided were ridiculous, and on a per-capita basis, the overall income of our district was not that great, probably upper middle class.

There aren't substantial PTAs or anything else for these inner-city schools. They are not supported by their community in the same way suburban schools are. That is just a fact.

Soonerguru,

Of course it was an over-simplification. My post wasn't intended as an in-depth analysis of our school system. But, if you don't think the influx of immigrants into our schools is not a problem, you are not paying attention.

You wrote that, "if half of the suburban families returned, en masse, to inner-city schools, the educational environment would greatly improve." Why would they want to? It's wouldn't be responsible for a parent to take their kids out of a quality school system and send them to an inner-city district as some sort of multicultural experiment. Most of us value our children more than that. You answered the biggest reason why that won't happen in your own post:
"teachers in inner-city schools spend an extraordinary amount of time on disciplinary, rather than educational, pursuits."
I couldn't have said it better. Now, why would parents in Edmond send their children "en masse" into that? It's not their responsibility to improve the schools in the inner-city by sending their children there! Kids shouldn't have to dodge gangs, knives, and the 'culture of the 'hood' when they go to school. It's about personal responsibility and it is the responsibility of the parents to make sure their children get the absolute best education they can. The fact that so many inner-city parents choose (a concept I know liberals have a hard time grasping) to not be involved, should not require an en-masse invasion from suburban parents who do. (Which was your idea (!) by the way.)

I know, it's my "narrow-minded" thinking, right? Unfortunately, your post was laden with talking points from the left who always seem to absolve inner-city parents of responsibility and blame it all on those awful suburban white people who took a flight for the burbs in the sixties. To me, and many others, that's the "narrow-minded" thinking. Too politically correct to see the forest for the trees.

[soonerguru]

xrayman,

Take off the Coulter glasses. Your hatred of liberals is blinding your interpretation of my commentary.

I never suggested that Edmond parents SHOULD put their kids in inner-city schools. I was merely pointing out that many good students who come from good homes that value school no longer attend inner-city schools. If there were some magical way to get them all back, the schools would improve. That's all I was saying.

I'm not suggesting that people engage in some social experiment. I'm just decrying the fact that our inner-city schools are so poor comparatively. Obviously, it's a fairly complex problem, but one we must face eventually if we are to make Oklahoma City a better place to live and work.

Regarding the immigrants, my sister taught at Columbus Elementary school. She is bilingual. The fact the students don't learn English at home is a challenge, but it is not an insurmountable one. Some of these immigrant families you blame for our poor school system are very supportive of their children getting a good education. The fact that they do not speak English is irrelevant.

Those students will have to work harder because they won't get a lot of help at home. But my sister was very impressed with many of the parents at her school. Sure, they were poor, but most of them went out of their way to drop off and pick up their children at school, and attendance was rarely an issue.

I seriously doubt you have spent one minute working in an inner-city school with a high immigrant population. They are not the reason our inner-city schools are behind.

[soonerguru]

Unfortunately, your post was laden with talking points from the left who always seem to absolve inner-city parents of responsibility and blame it all on those awful suburban white people who took a flight for the burbs in the sixties.

Where are the talking points? Do you disagree with the fact that schools declined after "white flight" occurred?

I was just proffering an opinion, based on my own personal observation and understanding. I come from a family of public educators, so my commentary is not without personal context.

If anyone appears to be subscribing to talking points, it is you. Every point you make is something anyone can pick up on ten minutes of listening to AM conservative talk radio.

Nowhere did I absolve anyone of personal responsibility. You made it very clear that people in Edmond and affluent areas have no responsibility for inner-city schools. Fine. Then you will not be consulted for a solution, either.

Unfortunately, our schools hold our city back, and this forum exists for people to exchange ideas on how to improve our city. Having everyone of modestly affluent means leave the city to live in Edmond does not seem like a workable long-term solution.

If you have any reasonable suggestions on how to improve our inner-city schools, I'm all ears. Unlike you, I will not simply shut down your opinion based on my perception of your political ideology. Good ideas come from all corners. Surely you don't subscribe to every move the Republican Party endorses, right? Do you feel that only self-labeled "conservatives" offer valid opinions and insights?

[Midtowner]

My girlfriend teaches in one of the more 'ghetto' schools in the Mid Del school system. It's absolutely true that she spends a lot of time on discipline. It's absolutely true that there are kids and families who simply don't care about grades or graduation -- they exist.

Soonerguru, as far as your assertion that if we moved better students into inner city schools, they would do better -- besides the fact that it would obviously boost averages, how would that help the poor students? I believe we've tried bussing, and help me out here -- are we still bussing poor kids to "rich" schools? I seriously don't know, but I seem to remember that they discontinued the practice after its efficacy was called into question.

What you say about immigrant students, at least from where I'm sitting (and based on no statistical data) also rings true. Some of my gf's best students are the children of spanish speaking parents. Those kids will have a real leg up on our kids in the future due to their bilingual abilities, at least assuming that they continue on through the higher ed system.

If you all are looking for why OKC schools are so far behind Edmond, let me spell it out for you -- socioeconomic status of the parents. You need simply to refer to the data above. I don't think it's a massive leap to tie that data to educational performance. I know that correlation does not necessarily equal causation, and that's not what I'm saying, however, socioeconomic status of the parents/kids certainly is a factor.

[Midtowner]

Where are the talking points? Do you disagree with the fact that schools declined after "white flight" occurred?

I was just proffering an opinion, based on my own personal observation and understanding. I come from a family of public educators, so my commentary is not without personal context.

If anyone appears to be subscribing to talking points, it is you. Every point you make is something anyone can pick up on ten minutes of listening to AM conservative talk radio.

Nowhere did I absolve anyone of personal responsibility. You made it very clear that people in Edmond and affluent areas have no responsibility for inner-city schools. Fine. Then you will not be consulted for a solution, either.

Unfortunately, our schools hold our city back, and this forum exists for people to exchange ideas on how to improve our city. Having everyone of modestly affluent means leave the city to live in Edmond does not seem like a workable long-term solution.

If you have any reasonable suggestions on how to improve our inner-city schools, I'm all ears. Unlike you, I will not simply shut down your opinion based on my perception of your political ideology. Good ideas come from all corners. Surely you don't subscribe to every move the Republican Party endorses, right? Do you feel that only self-labeled "conservatives" offer valid opinions and insights?

The only solution that I can think of would certainly not be popular, especially with the lower-achievers in the district. My solution would rely heavily on magnet schools. We'd need to add them at a much higher level than we have right now. Children who tested highly, showed that they were the best and brightest, etc. should be moved into schools that are new, clean facilities -- places where they can thrive, not be held back by thugs that have no future besides prison.

This would help to alleviate some of the inadequacies/disparities in educational opportunity just by providing an outlet, an avenue for our kids that are college bound to get away from the kids that are not. For the kids that are not college bound, why not start vo-tech training in the 9th grade? Give them an option for early graduation? If we can use the schools to churn out skilled kids with some real earnings potential in the workplace, great!

Then, of course, send the thugs off to "alternative acadamies" where they can be babysat until they are old enough to drop out, or actually earn their "certificate". This puts the pressure to achieve on the students, not the schools. It forces them to answer the question as to whether or not they will be successful.

I realize there are a lot of difficulties with this plan, and it'll never happen, but it sure beats what's going on right now.

[xrayman]

It's funny, SoonerGuru. All of your insults about "AM radio"....."Coulter glasses"....ahh.....too many to mention.....could all be said about you! You sound like a typical poster at "Democratic Underground" who thinks Chomsky has the answers to all our problems. Those answers always involve the advancement of a left wing political agenda. See how it feels to be branded? Your name-calling and condescending remarks are tiring. If I have blinders, then I am not alone - as yours are keeping you from seeing that you are nowhere close to the "mainstream," and are swimming with the victims in the warm waters of the left.

You seem ANGRY that Oklahoma City is a conservative city. We have nothing to apologize for. You seem so interested in "building up our city" yet take every opportunity to tell us that we have to change many of our fundamental beliefs to become acceptable to you (and others) that want OKC to be another San Francisco, Seattle or Austin.

Since you have a sister who teaches at Columbus, then I will forego offering opinions on education. I can't possibly know anything about the problems of inner-city education. If only I had a sister who taught at Columbus.

I'm sorry. I am being just as much a jerk as you are - really to show you that to make arguments personal do nobody any good.

One thing.....you said:

Unlike you, I will not simply shut down your opinion based on my perception of your political ideology.

I did not shut down anything based on your political ideology. If anything was shutdown, it was because of your opinions - which are dictated by your political ideology. And yes, SoonerGuru, you shoot down a lot of what people say here due to their political ideology; complete with a lecture on how we will never grow without becoming more like you and your favorite left-wing cities. Which begs the question - If you hate how we feel around here, why do you live here?

[Midtowner]

xrayman,

We've taken a detour here.

So what do you think about the subject we were discussing in the thread?

***
Or, in the alternative, what are our city's fundamental beliefs you are talking about? I just moved here from Edmond, I didn't get that memo

[Sooner&RiceGrad]

longer commutes and would end up limiting my driving to mostly places in Edmond to save time.

I hate peoplethat do that. It is called laziness.

Moore and far south OKC rapidly becoming the next Edmond.

Sure. Except your wrong. Moore is straight-forward middle class. Good ol' down to earth Moore. Gotta love it down there. Please know that while Mo' has a slum between Santa Fe & Broadway, the rest of the city is quite nice.

The fact is, if half of the suburban families returned, en masse, to inner-city schools, the educational environment would greatly improve.

Now this includes me, and I speak for my group thus: No way. Won't ever happen, not unless the inner city becomes nicer before we decide to move.

OKC is no worse, and in fact is better, than it was a decade ago in the crime department.

It is still greek compared to Edmond.

Take off the Coulter glasses.

Can I keep mine on?

If there were some magical way to get them all back, the schools would improve. That's all I was saying.

... and it is so outlandish some people took offense to it.

Look. Here is the facts I bring to this table: Edmond has been reanked by two completely differant organizations as America's best small town to live in. Versus other parts of ANY other city, people will want to go to Edmond.

What organizations have been smoking crack you ask? Actually, some pretty respectable ones to be honest. Universal Publications of New York (Yes, the liberal bias that published the how-to-kill Bush guide) and some other one... I do forget. Anyway, the liberals pride themselves on being stereotypical on suburbs, so what they deem as "top rated" must mean something. Especially if it is in OKC.

Also. It's not just Edmond, ranked in desirability it is the best suburb in OKC, but there are many other popular, very nice suburbs here in OKC. Over half of our metro's population is not in OKC, and then a good amount of what is "suburban" is in OKC city limits.

[soonerguru]

Midtowner,

Those are good points. AGAIN, I'm not suggesting we move affluent people into OKC's school system.

I guess, and this is admittedly a supposition on my part, that if there were a higher ratio of "good students" in a school, the school would fare better academically as a whole because the learning environment would be enhanced.

I'm not some crazy advocate of bizarre social engineering, I just struggle with the fact that we have these poorly performing schools, and it seems to me to be sad that students who attend those schools are already handcuffed upon graduation.

[Midtowner]

Midtowner,

Those are good points. AGAIN, I'm not suggesting we move affluent people into OKC's school system.

I guess, and this is admittedly a supposition on my part, that if there were a higher ratio of "good students" in a school, the school would fare better academically as a whole because the learning environment would be enhanced.

I'm not some crazy advocate of bizarre social engineering, I just struggle with the fact that we have these poorly performing schools, and it seems to me to be sad that students who attend those schools are already handcuffed upon graduation.

I realize that you're not advocating relocation of our students to "boost" schools. Just making the point (for people besides yourself) that it's been tried, and it's failed. I'm anticipating arguments and agreements.

What I'm saying is that what determines a good student is typically culture, socioeconomic issues, etc. There are some exceptions.

My suggestion was that we provide opportunities for those exceptions to test into/apply for participation in special schools for high achievers within the district. I realize it's an academic discussion at best, but I feel bad pointing out flaws in a system without having some alternative in mind.

What are you advocating then?

Or are you just raging against the status quo?

[Sooner&RiceGrad]

Ahh well. I see I am caught up in a mini-flame war, I'll just re post later.

[Midtowner]

Ahh well. I see I am caught up in a mini-flame war, I'll just re post later.

No flame war here...

Well at least for once, not from my end

[soonerguru]

xrayman,

First of all, answer the question: as a self-labeled conservative, do you believe Oklahoma City would be improved overall if it becomes an attractive place for people of all ideologies, viewpoints and backgrounds to live? Or do you prefer it to stay just the way it is.

Your question is a good one. The reason I have stayed here is I have had this strange optimism that Oklahoma City would become a cosmopolitan, interesting city, that it is on the verge of change and self-improvement. As MAPS and other things have progressed, I have nurtured my optimism.

When I hear comments you make of the "love it or leave it" variety, I have to ask myself if my feelings of optimism for OKC are quixotic. I can't really tell what, if any, things you would like to see OKC become that it isn't currently. The schools aren't your problem. The feelings of people who don't see the world as you do don't matter. The immigrants are a problem.

If I may say so, your viewpoints seem to correspond to someone who doesn't really want things to change.

I'm sorry if I got personal. I just think your comment that I was issuing "talking points" was ridiculous on its face and very insulting. My views do not correspond to "talking points" from Democratic Underground or anything else.

And another thing: You never answered this question. Do you believe only the views and opinions of self-avowed "conservatives" are valid? Do you agree with everything the Republican Party espouses?

Sorry if it got too personal.

[Sooner&RiceGrad]

do you believe Oklahoma City would be improved overall if it becomes an attractive place for people of all ideologies, viewpoints and backgrounds to live? Or do you prefer it to stay just the way it is.

Oh dear. So you are saying we are prejudiced? Explain this to me. I agree we are very un-cosmopolitan, but racist? We are Christian city, and more so than any other.

And besides, are you saying that you want the death of Edmond in order for OKC to BECOME cosmopolitan? Are you OK?

And, before this there was absolutely no mention of democrat-republicans in this thread. Please keep it that way. You seem to have a martyr complex unlike any other.

To help you out, I am sure many democrats live in Edmond.

[soonerguru]

Oh dear. So you are saying we are prejudiced? Explain this to me. I agree we are very un-cosmopolitan, but racist? We are Christian city, and more so than any other.

No, I'm not saying that. Where do you see that comment? I don't think people here are racist, although xrayman blames Hispanic immigrants for the decline of our schools.

Yes, we are somewhat un-cosmopolitan currently. But is that what we always want to be? If we are "uncosmopolitan," how will we fare in economic development?

So, we're a Christian city? I didn't get the memo. Does that mean we don't welcome Jews and atheists? Do we need to carry bibles to work with us?

And besides, are you saying that you want the death of Edmond in order for OKC to BECOME cosmopolitan? Are you OK?

No. I'm not saying that, and only a quasi-illiterate boob would suggest I said that, or someone who is just picking a fight. Edmond is fine. I have nothing against it. Last I checked, however, the subject of this message board was Oklahoma City, so I couldn't care less about Edmond. Am I OK? Absolutely, I even got a check-up at the doctor last week. Are you OK? Do you have reading comprehension problems? Do you have problems imagining things? Because you seem to be imagining things I didn't say

And, before this there was absolutely no mention of democrat-republicans in this thread. Please keep it that way. You seem to have a martyr complex unlike any other.

OK, so Reps and Dems weren't mentioned until now, but liberals were demonized earlier in the thread. So who brought the political garbage to the thread?

Regarding the martyr complex, you must be the biggest one on the board because you start commenting on posts that weren't even directed at you. How large is your persecution complex, pal?

To help you out, I am sure many democrats live in Edmond.

Great, and that relates to the issue of public school disparities how?

[xrayman]

It's probably best to let this one cool down for a bit.