Who would trade OKC downtown of 35 years ago for downtown of 2014?

[Rover]

Just curious.

I happen to think downtown is quantum leaps ahead of where it was 30-35 years ago. I am excited for what it is becoming...SR plaza or not.

[metro]

Yes, with today's forward thinking leadership, money and knowledge I would definitely trade it because it would probably be a far more dense, lively place, however we are still in good times no doubt.

[gen70]

35 yrs. ago OKC was a big mess.

[fuzzytoad]

Are you talking about time traveling back to OKC downtown of 35 years ago? or Transporting OKC downtown of 35 years ago to today?

If either are the case, I would definitely do it..

If I went back to 35 years ago, I'd be able to warn people about the shuttle disaster, the Murrah bombing, 9/11, Katrina, etc.. plus I'd be able to make billions in stock..

If downtown of 35 years ago were transported to now, I'd setup tours showing people all the ancient technologies we used to do business with, the restaurants would make fortunes, families would be re-united, there'd be lots of opportunitiesfor teaching the people of 35 years ago how to incorporate themselves into today's society.. it would be wonderful..

[decepticobra]

Are you talking about time traveling back to OKC downtown of 35 years ago? or Transporting OKC downtown of 35 years ago to today?

If either are the case, I would definitely do it..

If I went back to 35 years ago, I'd be able to warn people about the shuttle disaster, the Murrah bombing, 9/11, Katrina, etc.. plus I'd be able to make billions in stock..

If downtown of 35 years ago were transported to now, I'd setup tours showing people all the ancient technologies we used to do business with, the restaurants would make fortunes, families would be re-united, there'd be lots of opportunitiesfor teaching the people of 35 years ago how to incorporate themselves into today's society.. it would be wonderful..

if i had a time machine, id definitely go back in time for breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day. i could spend less than $5.00 the whole day and be completely full. the 1950s sound like an awesome era for dining in.

[Rover]

Not exactly the kinds of responses I expected, but clever.

[betts]

I moved here from Denver 30 years ago and thought Oklahoma City was a total wasteland. The first couple of years here, until I got so busy I didn't notice, were some of the most depressing years of my life. Shopping was awful, it seemed like there were about five restaurants here, we finally found one Cantonese Chinese restaurant and there was absolutely no reason to go downtown.

I'd lived in an apartment created from a 19th century townhouse near downtown Denver prior to moving here, didn't even have a car, used public transportation exclusively and had a plethora of shopping and dining, not to mention recreational options, in Denver. I felt like I was in a timewarp moving here.

I'll take 2010 in Oklahoma City anyday over 30 years ago. Wasn't here 35 years ago, but suspect it was similar.

[OKCisOK4me]

2014, of course. Who gives a crap, other than historians and architects and engineers, about the aesthetics of downtown OKC? I'm not a history buff, I'm a future buff! Who cares what Sandridge is doing. I really don't care. As long as it keeps jobs here and it makes the kids happy, that's all that matters. You anti "Sandrige Planning" guys are all concerned about empty lots in downtown, yet downtown is not like NYC or Dallas or LA. Who cares if they kill half of a city block. I'll take 2014 any day. Just gotta get past 2012, lol...

[betts]

I will add, though, that I would definitely consider taking the pre-Pei downtown over our current one, based on photos I've seen.

[Popsy]

I wish you would have posed your question back to 1960, otherwise known a pre-urban renewal. Would those that yearn for all those demolished buildings still feel the same way when you look today at what has replaced them. Granted there are still some vacant pieces of land, but they will fill in time.

[Rover]

My referrence is in 1970 when I came to OU. Most of the buildings were still up. Keep in mind that most of the buildings were torn down because they were vacant or had tenants come and go. Most were in pitiful shape. OKC downtown was kind of scary. The Hotel Black was basically a hot sheet operation in the middle of town. Down the street was the Biltmore that looked good on the outside but was seedy inside. My brother was at the Children's hospital and it wasn't safe for Mom to walk to the car alone. Deep Deuce was a ghetto and hookers roamed all over downtown on the edges. I think some romanticize about what downtown was before Pei. Pei was hired because we needed to breath life into the core. If things were so great and growing, he wouldn't have been here.

IMHO, OKC downtown today is 1,000x more inviting for locating a business or for living, plazas or no plazas.

[betts]

Ah, but clearly all those buildings were renovatable. It was how the city was perceived more than the condition of the buildings. Suburbia was cool, malls were cool, new movie theaters were cool. Oklahoma City was car based and that was the era of tear it down and build new.

But there are places in cities like Boston and Philadelphia that didn't have that mentality, and those are the places we'd love to emulate now. In NYC Harlem is now one of the cool places to be, and all those brownstones are increasing in value and being renovated. Imagine what it would cost to build all those brownstones in Manhattan from scratch. What if we'd torn down all those old houses in Heritage Hills instead of renovating them? We'd have lost a lot of treasures.

[Rover]

Boston has 4 million people, NYC 20 million. I think they knew they would be back some day.

There has been plenty of tear down and re-build in both. I know, I do construction projects there all the time.

No one for the forseable future was willing to invest in OKC downtown then. I believe they are willing to now.

[gen70]

I do wish OKC still had the old theatres.

[Steve]

Odd question... 1965 vs today? Downtown OKC in 1965 was in big trouble - all the grand hotels and theaters were in distress and on the verge of closing, the fear of the Pei Plan had Main Street dying from retailers fleeing elsewhere.
I'm also not sure preservation is a question of now vs. 1955 or anything else.

[betts]

I agree this is odd. If the question is: if we could do it over again, would we preserve a lot of those great old buildings, the answer from me would certainly be yes. It's heartbreaking that we lost some of them. Oklahoma City certainly wouldn't have failed to move forward if we hadn't torn down many of those buildings. We would just be more like the cities that have a combination of the old and the new, and I think that would be preferable to what we have now.

[gen70]

Can you imagine what might be in place of BT if it had all been torn down and cleared off?

[Popsy]

Can you imagine what might be in place of BT if it had all been torn down and cleared off?

My imagination took me immediately to a cattle feed lot with a canal running through it.

[gen70]

My imagination took me immediately to a cattle feed lot with a canal running through it.

He..He.. I also had visions that were not very nice.

[Rover]

But in Bricktown the city DID step up and influence with investment making the existing properties worth something. Otherwise, they would have been torn down. But there are still buildings that have been demolished in Bricktown, right?

[Steve]

Rover, there's a lot more to the Bricktown story than that. The city actually abandoned Bricktown - and it was Neal Horton who made it viable.

[ljbab728]

Odd question... 1965 vs today? Downtown OKC in 1965 was in big trouble - all the grand hotels and theaters were in distress and on the verge of closing, the fear of the Pei Plan had Main Street dying from retailers fleeing elsewhere.
I'm also not sure preservation is a question of now vs. 1955 or anything else.

I also lament the demise of the great theaters which I used to visit when I was young but I have to wonder how they could have all been sustained. They certainly could have never survived as movie theaters and would there be enough other activities to have kept all of them viable?

[Jethrol]

Some people love antiques while others hate them and still others simply prefer new things. I love new and shiny and I don't see value in the old simply because it's been around longer. I've found it interesting looking at the model from the Pei Plan but I like where we are now and where we're headed much more than where we've been. I don't like seeing old stuff destroyed simply because it's old.....I like seeing ugly destroyed.

[Rover]

Steve, I agree there is much more, and I am not trying to simplify it, but it didn't REALLY take off until Maps. Now, others had to get it to that point and we are glad they did. But if there is a public benefit, the public needs to get engaged and help. In downtown OKC, the public saw the state of OKC and followed our leaders to generate a whole new round of opportunity. Now, we have the brightest future we have ever had. Sometimes you have to pull the scab off for the wound to heal.

[Steve]

Rover, if not for Neal Horton, the city had plans to raze the area. (Yes folks - this is new information. Get ready for I.M. Pei - the documentary - coming sometime next year). And Bricktown did have some momentum before MAPS - Spaghetti Warehouse, Bricktown Brewery, Abuelos, Bricktown Mercantile, several other shops and restaurants were already operating and going strong at the time. But was Bricktown what it is today? No.
But it was Horton, and then Jim Brewer, that kept the area alive and should get credit for Bricktown surviving long enough that city fathers could change their approach to such districts.
I'm not necessarily arguing your point - only the history cited.
"The only thing new in the world is the history you don't know" - Harry S. Truman