Sales tax update

[betts]

I received a lengthy message from Mr. Anerson, and in the interests of brevity, will post the final paragraph:

"To summarize, businesses do pay sales taxes. The calculation made prior to the Sports Facilities Sales Tax election was a calculation, made in good faith, in an effort to respond timely to an individual inquiry with no existing original research available. The result of this calculation included a revenue estimate including all taxable sales (business to business and individual purchases subject to sales tax), but divided only by population less an estimate for out of City sales. Consequently, The $10 per month in sales tax paid at a 1% rate cannot exclusively be attributed to an average citizen of Oklahoma City as businesses contribute to Oklahoma City’s sales tax revenue base."

[kevinpate]

As noted before in the other thread, that conclusion is the only common sense conclusion available.

The common sense nature of this was seemingly ignored by those preferring to press an agenda. I for one refuse to believe it was a matter beyond their capacity for understanding.

[iron76hd]

Voting NO is voting YES for a TAX CUT!

[Larry OKC]

I received a lengthy message from Mr. Anerson, and in the interests of brevity, will post the final paragraph:

"To summarize, businesses do pay sales taxes. ...

Betts, did he say anywhere in his response what the percentage was?

... The calculation made prior to the Sports Facilities Sales Tax election was a calculation, made in good faith, in an effort to respond timely to an individual inquiry with no existing original research available. The result of this calculation included a revenue estimate including all taxable sales (business to business and individual purchases subject to sales tax), but divided only by population less an estimate for out of City sales. ...

Makes me ask why the City doesn't have "existing original research available" on something as basic as this?

...Consequently, The $10 per month in sales tax paid at a 1% rate cannot exclusively be attributed to an average citizen of Oklahoma City as businesses contribute to Oklahoma City’s sales tax revenue base."

Will just throw this into the mix...yes, it is true that businesses pay a certain percentage of the sales tax, but don't you realize those business taxes often get passed along to their customers? Brings us right back to the average cost per person thing again, doesn't it?

[betts]

No, I wasn't given a percentage. And, Larry, while you are right that it is possible that businesses will pass their taxes on to their customers, the fact remains that the numbers originally given don't add up. It's simply not possible for families to spend that much money per year on taxable items, if you look at average income.

Remember, many of the companies in Oklahoma City market their goods and services to more than just Oklahoma City. Some are countywide, some are statewide, and some are national in their scope. So, while they may pass their sales tax costs on to consumers, those consumers are not necessarily living in Oklahoma City.

[okcpulse]

Voting NO is voting YES for a TAX CUT!

And a stall in OKC's progress. Nice try.

[rcjunkie]

That's enough, stop trying to confuse Iron76hd with numbers.

[Larry OKC]

No, I wasn't given a percentage. And, Larry, while you are right that it is possible that businesses will pass their taxes on to their customers, the fact remains that the numbers originally given don't add up. It's simply not possible for families to spend that much money per year on taxable items, if you look at average income.

Remember, many of the companies in Oklahoma City market their goods and services to more than just Oklahoma City. Some are countywide, some are statewide, and some are national in their scope. So, while they may pass their sales tax costs on to consumers, those consumers are not necessarily living in Oklahoma City.

The numbers are from the City, so if they don't add up, shouldn't your issue should be with the City?

If the City is wrong with these numbers, that doesn't bode well for other number crunching with MAPS 3.

[betts]

Larry, the city isn't making videos using these numbers. As the e-mail says, this was a response to a person asking for data 2 years ago. I think the city should have been more proactice in informing people that the Wando Jo Stapletons and David Glovers of the world are using inaccurate figures in their statements, but no, my issue is not with the city in this particular case. It's with people publicizing inaccuracies to advance their cause. People will come back and say the city is doing the same thing and, all I can say if that's the case then it's not right. But, they have no data out there that I can easily see the holes in. I don't know enough. It's just that it didn't take very much thinking to realize that Mr. Glover had to be wrong. Regardless, I'm just a message board commenter. I'm not trying make myself a public figure.

And, I'm not sure precisely how involved in the number crunching Mr. Anderson is. Oviously it's pretty simple for the city to look at sales tax collection for one year and assume that it will be similar another year. They can't figure surprise blips caused by an unusually good or unusually bad economy, but I suspect they assume those numbers even out some over a 7 year period.

Also, as was mentioned in a different article, the cost of construction can change, depending on the economy, so there are multiple factors to consider.

[Larry OKC]

Larry, the city isn't making videos using these numbers. As the e-mail says, this was a response to a person asking for data 2 years ago. I think the city should have been more proactice in informing people that the Wando Jo Stapletons and David Glovers of the world are using inaccurate figures in their statements, but no, my issue is not with the city in this particular case. It's with people publicizing inaccuracies to advance their cause. People will come back and say the city is doing the same thing and, all I can say if that's the case then it's not right. But, they have no data out there that I can easily see the holes in. I don't know enough. It's just that it didn't take very much thinking to realize that Mr. Glover had to be wrong. Regardless, I'm just a message board commenter. I'm not trying make myself a public figure.

And, I'm not sure precisely how involved in the number crunching Mr. Anderson is. Oviously it's pretty simple for the city to look at sales tax collection for one year and assume that it will be similar another year. They can't figure surprise blips caused by an unusually good or unusually bad economy, but I suspect they assume those numbers even out some over a 7 year period.

Also, as was mentioned in a different article, the cost of construction can change, depending on the economy, so there are multiple factors to consider.

But again, the "inaccurate figures" as you put it ARE the City's inaccurate numbers. You even posted that the math worked out (after he posted the letter supporting where he said all along was the source).

Now I will agree with you that if the City has corrected itself (and whomever is using the inaccurate numbers) doesn't adjust there presentation, then that is wrong as well. I basically did that as an ongoing thing with the % over budget issue (whenever I found new info, redid all of the math). Sometimes that made my position better, sometimes worse, but I always presented it with the latest info I had. Thanks to Doug, who posted a pre-vote Oklahoman article, I was finally able to nail down the "Voters told" and "Final costs" (with the exception of the River improvements, the City's site still has the cost as "estimated"). Now, if I wanted to I could use the lowest $$$ amount found and the highest $$$ found and used that. But that wouldn't be credible in the slightest. Much as the Chamber's MAPS economic impact numbers (that look artificially inflated, that include things that had nothing to do with MAPS at all; i.e., the I-40 relocation and the Bombing Memorial).

Had addressed this before...actually the Mayor has addressed it and I am not going to look it up again for the exact quotes but he said that sales tax projections are remarkably easy for the City to forecast (over a prolonged term). The example he pointed to was MAPS for Kids revenue collected came within $2M +/- of the projection (0.4%). That is awesome and I would be absolutely ecstatic if they could get cost revenues that close!

The problem with the Ford tax was it was short term and didn't have the multi-year advantage of averaging out. Just as MAPS averaged $66M/year, there were undoubtedly highs/lows. Same thing with MAPS for Kids. Same with MAPS 3 projections.

[Easy180]

Voting NO is voting YES for a TAX CUT!

That won't make a difference in your life at all

[kevinpate]

Voting YES is inviting others to help give OKC residents many kewl beans venues instead of asking OKC folks to carry all their own water themselves.

Some of us are looking forward to doing just that, so y'all VOTE YES!

[Larry OKC]

That won't make a difference in your life at all

not sure about it making a difference for Iron, but consider this:

On the same day and the same page (think one was right under the one that touted the benefits of the Convention Center (to be paid by the tax they are saying is a "burden" or at least 12% of it), they ran this:

No simple solutions to easing tax burden (Oklahoman, 11/22/09)

The state is rated as having an exceptionally regressive tax system by the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy (ITEP), which says low- and moderate-income Oklahomans surrender a greater portion of their incomes to taxes than those with higher incomes.

The problem is multifaceted and begins with the fact that Oklahoma’s highest personal income tax rate (now at 5.5 percent) kicks in at a relatively low income level. ADD TO THAT THE BURDEN IMPOSED BY SALES TAXES and the lack of an exemption on food and clothing.

Let's see now, what would be a good way to start easing that burden? What could we do that wouldn't require an act of the Legislature (like eliminating the grocery tax)...

[betts]

Larry, you're going to find a way to vote "no" no matter what. If you consider 10 cents a day a burden, then by all means, vote "no". If you need that ten cents a day to feed your family, then by all means vote "no", although I would probably check to see if I qualified for food stamps.

I think food should be exempt. I think the working poor should be exempt. But, I'm not voting "no" because of that. Instead, I'm going to see if we can get the city council to give an exemption below a certain income level, for people who don't qualify for welfare or other government assistance. The working poor probably need jobs more than they need a penny sales tax exemption, and there will be far more jobs if MAPS passes than if it doesn't.

[Larry OKC]

Larry, you're going to find a way to vote "no" no matter what. If you consider 10 cents a day a burden, then by all means, vote "no". If you need that ten cents a day to feed your family, then by all means vote "no", although I would probably check to see if I qualified for food stamps.

I think food should be exempt. I think the working poor should be exempt. But, I'm not voting "no" because of that. Instead, I'm going to see if we can get the city council to give an exemption below a certain income level, for people who don't qualify for welfare or other government assistance. The working poor probably need jobs more than they need a penny sales tax exemption, and there will be far more jobs if MAPS passes than if it doesn't.

The City/Chamber keep giving me all the ways to vote no, and little reason to vote yes. Almost seems like they are going out of there way to do so. 1st there was the incorrect "Facts" on their site, then the latest spin, half-truths and yes, in one case a flat out lie in the MAPS 3 flier that was in Sunday's paper. I addressed some of this in another thread and won't repeat here.

The editorial writers of our esteemed Oklahoman used that word, I was pointing out the irony that they would publish that editorial on the same page they were pushing the sales tax increase.

Similar irony when after pushing the Ford tax, they opined that we were dangerously close to the 10% mark (that some cities have already passed).

Again you seem to be directing this the wrong way. Take issue with the Oklahoman if you want.

Although I hope you are successful with the exemption thing, can that even be done after the fact? I don't know if it can be added if it wasn't in there to begin with? Maybe it can. I don't know. Apparently the Senior refund only applied with MAPS (not MAPS 2 or the Ford, and as you learned, not in MAPS 3 either).

[Larry OKC]

...The working poor probably need jobs more than they need a penny sales tax exemption, and there will be far more jobs if MAPS passes than if it doesn't.

I agree there but you have to consider timing as well. A tax cut would be more immediate than the jobs promised that are years away.

[betts]

Larry, I don't think this kind of tax cut is going to do any good. Yes the jobs might be years (although I doubt more than a couple) away, but how much good is a few cents a day going to do anyone? Even a family can't buy a single hamburger with their daily tax cut. How is that going to have any financial impact over time? How could it ever have the impact of large projects like the streetcar or convention center? No one is going to get a check for the entire year's worth of taxes they don't have to pay, and that is the only way it might have any effect. Even Bush's $300 per person tax rebate had no effect on the economy, so how would a daily 10 to 20 cents do anything?

[Larry OKC]

The projects are spread out over time, it depends on which jobs of course (construction and the like come before that and you are still talking close to 2 years or so) but the 1st project isn't scheduled to be open until 2014 (4 years) and the last project, 10 years. Thes projects overlap but i wonder how many of those jobs are "unique", would imagine that some of the same construction workers will be working on multiple projects. Not trying to argue, just asking

[betts]

I'm sure you're right. Some of the jobs will be continuations of previous jobs, if the same construction companies get the bids. But, if this does pass, then reading information on other cites and streetcars, once a route is determined, we may see private development before the rail is even complete. I would think the same thing might be true with the convention center and the park. We may see some development earlier than the projects, or certainly done before the projects are completed. I would hope so, anyway.

[BoulderSooner]

Voting NO is voting YES for a TAX CUT!

maybe the first true thing you have said in the last month ..

but a NO vote is also a vote against OKC, against making this a better city, making it safer, and making it a better place to live

[betts]

A tax cut of a few pennies a day. A family of four can't even buy one dollar value meal at McDonalds with what they'd save if MAPS doesn't pass. You can't even buy a bag of Cheetos with iron's "tax cut"....you'd have to save up for almost a week to afford it. There's no economic stimulus that that kind of tax cut. No one will even notice it, and we'll be without any new job creation, without any of the new projects that will stimulate development and also create jobs, without any of the projects that will beautify and improve our city. No thanks.

[iron76hd]

There's no economic stimulus that that kind of tax cut.

Interesting. What will each citizen do with that money the get back then if not spend it?

[hoya]

The question is, are they going to spend it on something that will help the economy of OKC. If the cut means they buy a t-shirt off of Amazon, then no, it doesn't help us. As I said earlier, you can spend your income on whatever you want. But compare fixing your roof to buying Starbucks every day. Both are perfectly acceptable uses of your money. One is also wiser than the other.

As of today, I have zero sympathy for the police union. I was privy to a conversation this morning that eliminated any lurking compassion I might have. A third party (who shall remain nameless, but who can be considered solidly pro-law enforcement) said there was a "sweetheart" deal worked out between the FOP and the city, but the FOP told the city to go shove it. Even still, the city has agreed to do the right thing regardless of the outcome of MAPS, not cutting any police jobs and even adding several spots in the next few years. The city is showing more restraint than I would. If it were me, it would be all out total war.

[Kerry]

Voting NO is voting YES for a TAX CUT!

You would have a good point in your motivation for opposition wasn't so you could help pass a future sales tax that would benefit you directly.

[betts]

You would have a good point in your motivation for opposition wasn't so you could help pass a future sales tax that would benefit you directly.

True Kerry. They only want a tax cut tomorrow. That will undoubtedly change rapidly thereafter. The question is, who's going to go to bat for them? Not Mark Shannon, I suspect. The mayor? The city council? The same arguments that are being used against MAPS....recession, not a good time etc, can be used against any tax INCREASE. There, I said it. If MAPS doesn't pass, any further tax will be a tax increase.