MAPS Opposition Fliers

[Urban Pioneer]

Undoubtedly it is obvious that I support MAPS. I'm support it for the fantastic transit initiative.

So I'm curious as to where people are seeing opposition fliers.

I was at the Civic Center this morning and received this flier put out by Wanda Jo Stapleton and followers.





GOT AN EXTRA $930?
MAPS 3 sales tax will cost about $930 for the average OKC resident. About $10 per month for this 93-month project. (Based on an economic analysis conducted by Dr. Mark Snead, OSU, for the Oklahoma City Finance Department).

Mayor Cornett asked OKC residents what they wanted: They said: Transit (light rail, streetcars, etc.) and Infrastructure, including streets. See results on website: MAPS 3 | Oklahoma City

What we’re getting!
OKC’s 3rd convention center (in addition to Cox Convention Center and the Ford Center)
70-acre park downtown. Why? A request by Devon Energy.
Irresponsible destruction of the Union Station Rail Yard---After ignoring thousands of requests to save OKC’s Union Station rail yard from destruction, the OKC Council is asking for our MAPS 3 sales tax money for “a downtown transit hub which will link streetcar, commuter rail and bus systems” – exactly the reason Union Station’s invaluable, irreplaceable rail yard was built in the first place.

VOTE NO – MAPS 3, DECEMBER 8
Citizen Patriots, P.O. Box 19863, OKC 73144


Is anybody else getting these?

[ronronnie1]

I haven't seen these fliers, but their case is WEAK.

And when they speak of "rail yards," are they just talking about the old railroad tracks? Oh yeah, there's something important to save. The Union Station building isn't being threatened is it? I could understand objections to demolishing the building, but not so much the tracks. Makes no sense.

[Urban Pioneer]

I haven't seen these fliers, but their case is WEAK.

And when they speak of "rail yards," are they just talking about the old railroad tracks? Oh yeah, there's something important to save. The Union Station building isn't being threatened is it? I could understand objections to demolishing the building, but not so much the tracks. Makes no sense.

Oh, I think at one time they had a very legitimate argument. However the majority of the Union Station rail yard advocates have abandoned the battle over the station yard and have moved on.

It seems that this group wants to leverage the past to attack the MAPS proposal which is unfortunate. No matter what your opinion is about Union Station, it is a war that has been waged and lost.

[okcpulse]

Not to mention that the new convention center is not OKC's third convention center. Ford Center is not a convention center. Cox isn't even really a convention center. It's a medium-sized sports arena flanked by small exhibit halls.

Real convention centers don't have arenas, and if they do, the are VERY, VERY small, like the Maxwell Convention Center in Tulsa.

[MikeOKC]

I haven't seen these fliers, but their case is WEAK.

And when they speak of "rail yards," are they just talking about the old railroad tracks? Oh yeah, there's something important to save. The Union Station building isn't being threatened is it? I could understand objections to demolishing the building, but not so much the tracks. Makes no sense.

Actually, the yards are worth huge bucks if we were ever to develop a true light rail system. Search the forum and you'll find many threads on this issue, good points pro and con.

I don't like how either side has opposed/promoted MAPS 3. I agree with Doug about the obvious conflict of interest in the publisher of The Oklahoman leading the campaign in a public role for MAPS 3. That's just plain WRONG and obviously so. That same newspaper has been horrible about coverage of something this big. It's all part of the plan. Build it up and you get a bigger vote turnout which they do not want.

I am going to vote 'Yes' but am disappointed to see such arrogance and secrecy on the part of our city leaders. This is like the 'good old days', and that's not good. I feel, (like many), put in a position of supporting principles of good government or a stalling of the progress. I resent that greatly, but will vote YES.

Am I being played like a fiddle? Yes, I am. All of us are. But we aren't in a position to make demands at this late date as to transparency. Like I said, I really resent the position I am placed in.

With reservations, but I'm voting YES!

[Urban Pioneer]

Take solace in that if we get this thing passed, the three modern streetcar systems in other US cities have seen a minimum $10 to $1 return on the investment in their systems. SO, even if you hate the rest of the proposal or how its handled, let'em have it as the streetcar will bring in a billion in development by itself.

I am for transit because it is a healthier lifestyle and quite frankly I am tired of so much of my money going to gas, asphalt, and parking. But the economic return is an undeniable benefit that surpasses the MAPS initiative by itself.

[Urban Pioneer]

Plus there is $10 million in there for a hub and commuter rail to start the regional system.

[okcpulse]

I wsih lived in OKC right now, because I would vote YES. HOWEVER... I would write the powers that be and let them know my feelings about the importance of police and fire protection. That needs to be their next focus.

I'm not sold on the public safety campaign against MAPS 3 for the reason that they are throwing their weight around on something that doesn't even involve a tax increase (we've been paying 8.375% for ten years now, I think by now the tax rate should be worn in), and they are harping about a problem that warrants a permanent funding source, not a slice of the MAPS 3 pie.

[MikeOKC]

I agree OKCPulse. For one thing, the decision a few years ago to renovate the Oklahoma City Police Headquarters versus building a new one was a horrible choice. Our department headquarters is a laughingstock for a city this size.

[LakeEffect]

The $930 figure makes me smile. $10/month for 93 months... that's next-to-nothing. Plus, it's an existing sales tax rate, so it's not another chunk out of income.

But the thing I don't get is the rail yard portion. Maps 3, other than the park, doesn't have anything at all to do with the rail yard. Red herring!

[Patrick]

They're getting desparate if they're bringing up the railyard....has nothing to do with MAPS. Is Tom Elmorw behind this push? Lol!

And I can't say someone is very credible if they call the Ford Center a convention center....it's a sports arena, not a convention center.

[Easy180]

GOT AN EXTRA $930?

Fortunately for us the majority of voters will answer yes to this question

[Slivermoon]

Okay, I don't get the math.

If a 1% tax costs $10 monthly per average resident, then the full State/City tax rate (4.5% State, 3.875% City) of 8.375% costs the average resident $83.75 a month. To get to that number in State/City taxes, the average resident would have to make $1,000 of taxable purchases monthly... for a family of three $3,000 in monthly or $36,000 in annual purchases that are subject to sales tax (which excludes mortgage payments, auto payments, etc.). This seems way high and there's no way this makes sense if you are looking only at personal, individual, taxpayers.

[Steve]

,,

[Doug Loudenback]

Actually, the yards are worth huge bucks if we were ever to develop a true light rail system. Search the forum and you'll find many threads on this issue, good points pro and con.

I don't like how either side has opposed/promoted MAPS 3. I agree with Doug about the obvious conflict of interest in the publisher of The Oklahoman leading the campaign in a public role for MAPS 3. That's just plain WRONG and obviously so. That same newspaper has been horrible about coverage of something this big. It's all part of the plan. Build it up and you get a bigger vote turnout which they do not want.

I am going to vote 'Yes' but am disappointed to see such arrogance and secrecy on the part of our city leaders. This is like the 'good old days', and that's not good. I feel, (like many), put in a position of supporting principles of good government or a stalling of the progress. I resent that greatly, but will vote YES.

Am I being played like a fiddle? Yes, I am. All of us are. But we aren't in a position to make demands at this late date as to transparency. Like I said, I really resent the position I am placed in.

With reservations, but I'm voting YES!

A couple of things ... I've not yet updated my blog's postings in these regards but will do so shortly.

The Oklahoman's Coverage. Surprisingly (and pleasantly so) the past couple of days have seen what I think to be solid journalism at the Oklahoman vis a vis reporter John Estus. A big improvement, and I'll give credit where credit is due. I'm still watching to see if his stuff was a aberrational blip ... or if he gets fired or throttled ... or if the Oklahoman has elected to let its reporters actually report.

The closely-held process which led to the MAPS 3 proposal. Sure, there were times that public input was available, but not after spring 2009, contrary to my understanding of what the mayor said would occur. Either (a) I'm mistaken and he didn't commit to spring-summer citizen input, or (b) he changed his mind and didn't tell us.

The 2 recent press conferences. Today, I've spent a good bit of time comparing, side by side, the mayor's 11/12 press conference with the NotThisMaps press conference on 11/13, and I'll be making a new blot post about that shortly. I've not yet completed my thinking about either or both together, but my preliminary observations are:

Neither side is being particularly respectful of the other, and that's not a good thing. Isn't anyone willing to take the high road?

In my opinion, the worst culprit of the lot in this regard, city or anti-coalition press conferences, was Phil Sipe, president of the Firefighters union. In his comments yesterday, while he obviously had a sympathetic audience in the building that the Firefighters union occupies (where the press conference was held), he was full of cheap shots and misleading remarks in some of what he had to say. For example,

1. He argued against "giving a blank check to a bunch of politicians." Like ... being a politician is a blemish on one's character ... like he's not being a politician, himself, right now ... like the mayor and city government, per the earlier Gazette/News9 poll, are not held in high esteem by the public, which the poll showed they were, remarkably so. Flash back to pre-1993-MAPS, and Sipe could easily have been voicing the identical rhetoric that he did yesterday. He looks good in his cowboy hat and he is good at speaking to and rallying those who agree with him already, but his presentation is clearly emotionally, and not intellectually based ... at least that's how he comes across to me.
   
2. Like his remark about the purity of the unions ... they are not in it for themselves but because of their devotion to Oklahoma City. Right. While I don't doubt that they like their city, I do doubt that they became firefighters and/or policemen for the reason that they saw it as their life-roles to devote themselves in some feigned love affair with OKC to the city that they loved. Like most of the rest of us, they needed jobs and that (police/fire) was the job that gave them personal satisfaction. Kids dream of being cops or fire fighters, and that's all good. But it's wrong for Sipe to try and characterize police/firefighter motivation as being up on some sort of a grand pedestal, superior to the place of mere "politicians."
   
3. Like his remark, about the offer presented by the city to the firefighters, that the union rejected the "30 pieces of silver," making like the city was Pontias Pilate and that the union was not about to be Judas.
   
4. Like his remark that the city should be more focused on fixing pot-holes, as though the city's earlier bond election isn't presently involved in substantially repaving and improving our city's streets.

I'll have more to say shortly, and the city does not have unblemished hands, to be sure (like the mayor's much earlier mis-characterization of the union position as being not being about anything other than wages). One could expand the pro-MAPS 3 list of outrageous comments by going back to the 1st Chamber "Breaking Through" luncheon when, at the end, David Thompson offered his view that if MAPS 3 did not pass that the city would be set back 10 years. Sure thing, David -- the last 10 years progress suddenly vanishes on 12/8/2009 if MAPS 3 doesn't pass and we are transported back in time to 1999. The last 10 years of the city's development gets a fast flush and it never happened. What an idiotic thing for him to say.

There's plenty of hyperbole, and lack of respect for the others' viewpoint and position all the way around. Enemies are being made in this public process.

And that's sad.

One of the products of original MAPS, and then MAPS for Kids, what the convergence of citizen pride, trust in government, business willingness to invest, which occurred following the fruition of original MAPS & MAPS for Kids being profoundly realized. Today, with publicly thrown cheap shots all around, one wonders if that worthwhile alliance between government, business, and citizens that has led to so much good for the city might be in harms way.

Enough for now. I'm not done thinking, but I'm troubled for my city about how this deal is publicly progressing.

[Golfer]

Undoubtedly it is obvious that I support MAPS. I'm support it for the fantastic transit initiative.

So I'm curious as to where people are seeing opposition fliers.

I was at the Civic Center this morning and received this flier put out by Wanda Jo Stapleton and followers.





GOT AN EXTRA $930?
MAPS 3 sales tax will cost about $930 for the average OKC resident. About $10 per month for this 93-month project. (Based on an economic analysis conducted by Dr. Mark Snead, OSU, for the Oklahoma City Finance Department).

Mayor Cornett asked OKC residents what they wanted: They said: Transit (light rail, streetcars, etc.) and Infrastructure, including streets. See results on website: MAPS 3 | Oklahoma City

What we’re getting!
OKC’s 3rd convention center (in addition to Cox Convention Center and the Ford Center)
70-acre park downtown. Why? A request by Devon Energy.
Irresponsible destruction of the Union Station Rail Yard---After ignoring thousands of requests to save OKC’s Union Station rail yard from destruction, the OKC Council is asking for our MAPS 3 sales tax money for “a downtown transit hub which will link streetcar, commuter rail and bus systems” – exactly the reason Union Station’s invaluable, irreplaceable rail yard was built in the first place.

VOTE NO – MAPS 3, DECEMBER 8
Citizen Patriots, P.O. Box 19863, OKC 73144


Is anybody else getting these?

There are several oppositon pockets around the city, not just the polce and fire. Yes voters research the penny tax history and you will find that in it's best year in good economic times it only brought in 92 million, so they are claiming it will bring in 100 million a year so they are already not be straight shooters. If it passes which I seriously doubt then when it expires they will either forget some projects or ask for another extension. Has one pro maps statement every discussed the order in which they will start with these projects,no. The first project will be the project that was desired by the wealthiest contributor to the pro maps campaign. Bennett, Nichols, Norick, Humphreys, Thompson, etc.; place your bet on which one of these elite wealthy will get their project started first. Also the convention center estimated cost only includes a part of the convention center, not the full price and where is the rest of the coming from to finish this, please enlighten me. Talk to Council Walters if you want to know the full story on Maps 3because the rest of them will only tell you what you want to hear. The past Maps 3 informational meetings made attendees write thier questions down ahead of time and that was so they would only answer the one's that would benefit them.

[Wambo36]

Sorry Doug, but all of the above comments were made by the FOP president. And I'm sorry that this suprises you. Those of us who have been dealing with the city for years know this is business as usual for them. I would venture to say your not through being suprised.

[Doug Loudenback]

Sorry Doug, but all of the above comments were made by the FOP president. And I'm sorry that this suprises you. Those of us who have been dealing with the city for years know this is business as usual for them. I would venture to say your not through being suprised.

Did I get the fire/police roles reversed? Is the guy who wore the the cowboy hat the in the 11/13 press conference the FOP president? If so, thanks for the correction. A pic of they fellow who made the comments I mentioned is below:



Did I say that I was surprised by what either side said in the press conferences? I don't think that I did, but feel free to quote what you find that I said in that regard and I'll stand corrected. I did say that I was pleasantly surprised by a couple of solid Oklahoman articles by John Estus, but that's a different "surprise" than what you said I said.

[flintysooner]

Neither side is being particularly respectful of the other, and that's not a good thing. Isn't anyone willing to take the high road?

There's plenty of hyperbole, and lack of respect for the others' viewpoint and position all the way around. Enemies are being made in this public process.

And that's sad.

One of the products of original MAPS, and then MAPS for Kids, what the convergence of citizen pride, trust in government, business willingness to invest, which occurred following the fruition of original MAPS & MAPS for Kids being profoundly realized. Today, with publicly thrown cheap shots all around, one wonders if that worthwhile alliance between government, business, and citizens that has led to so much good for the city might be in harms way.

Enough for now. I'm not done thinking, but I'm troubled for my city about how this deal is publicly progressing.

Excellent observations. Really does make me think back to the way the City was about the time I left. Makes me very sad.

I've wondered myself if we simply cannot keep ourselves as a society from continually repeating the past. We just never seem to learn.

Depressing.

[andy157]

I agree OKCPulse. For one thing, the decision a few years ago to renovate the Oklahoma City Police Headquarters versus building a new one was a horrible choice. Our department headquarters is a laughingstock for a city this size.

So you think that was a bad decision, maybe it was. Who made that choice?

[LakeEffect]

So you think that was a bad decision, maybe it was. Who made that choice?

City Council made the choice when determining what projects would be listed for the 2007 GO Bond Election, based on what a hired consultant said it would cost the City to complete the necessary upgrades or new construction.

[Wambo36]

Did I get the fire/police roles reversed? Is the guy who wore the the cowboy hat the in the 11/13 press conference the FOP president? If so, thanks for the correction. A pic of they fellow who made the comments I mentioned is below:



Did I say that I was surprised by what either side said in the press conferences? I don't think that I did, but feel free to quote what you find that I said in that regard and I'll stand corrected. I did say that I was pleasantly surprised by a couple of solid Oklahoman articles by John Estus, but that's a different "surprise" than what you said I said.

No, you are correct that you didn't say suprised. When you said it troubled you how this was progressing publicly I missread something into it. Sorry.
Like I said though, this is par for the course under this city manager. First they offer you a deal that they know you won't accept. When you reject their offer they come out to eviscerate you. We've come to expect it.

Yes that is the FOP president. Phil doesn't look that good in a cowboy hat.

[andy157]

I wsih lived in OKC right now, because I would vote YES. HOWEVER... I would write the powers that be and let them know my feelings about the importance of police and fire protection. That needs to be their next focus.

I'm not sold on the public safety campaign against MAPS 3 for the reason that they are throwing their weight around on something that doesn't even involve a tax increase (we've been paying 8.375% for ten years now, I think by now the tax rate should be worn in), and they are harping about a problem that warrants a permanent funding source, not a slice of the MAPS 3 pie.

You could still write that letter even though you don't live here. That would be nice and much appreciated. Maybe someday you will find your way back to OKC. That would be nice as well. But if you do, would you wait until after the vote? (I kid)

[okcpulse]

Maybe someday you will find your way back to OKC.

My return to OKC is already set in stone.

[jbrown84]

GOT AN EXTRA $930?
MAPS 3 sales tax will cost about $930 for the average OKC resident. About $10 per month for this 93-month project. (Based on an economic analysis conducted by Dr. Mark Snead, OSU, for the Oklahoma City Finance Department).

Mayor Cornett asked OKC residents what they wanted: They said: Transit (light rail, streetcars, etc.) and Infrastructure, including streets. See results on website: MAPS 3 | Oklahoma City

What we’re getting!
OKC’s 3rd convention center (in addition to Cox Convention Center and the Ford Center)
70-acre park downtown. Why? A request by Devon Energy.
Irresponsible destruction of the Union Station Rail Yard---After ignoring thousands of requests to save OKC’s Union Station rail yard from destruction, the OKC Council is asking for our MAPS 3 sales tax money for “a downtown transit hub which will link streetcar, commuter rail and bus systems” – exactly the reason Union Station’s invaluable, irreplaceable rail yard was built in the first place.[/B]

Total BS!! The Union Station rail yard has absolutely nothing, NOTHING to do with Maps 3. Not only is it a done deal, but it's because of I-40, which is in no way whatsoever related to this vote. And OnTrac has endorsed MAPS 3.

And I don't know where this idea came from about Devon requesting the central park. Clearly these people are so misguided and misinformed, they don't know the difference between the Myriad Gardens makeover (not MAPS-related) and the new central park.

They also try to make it sound like we are NOT getting the infrastructure and transit.

If someone tries to hand me one of these, they better be ready for a 30 minute conversation about their ignorance.