Officials debate saving railyards vs. altering I-40

[metro]

Officials debate cost of losing rail yard versus altering Crosstown plan
Journal Record
September 23, 2008

OKLAHOMA CITY – Everyone asked to speak to state Senate members on Monday had opinions about what the state should do regarding the fate of the rail yard for Oklahoma City’s Union Station. What they didn’t have was an estimated cost to attach to their opinions. Whatever it costs to alter the alignment of the Crosstown Expressway project will be a savings compared to what will be lost if the Crosstown project ruins Union Station’s yard, said Garl B. Latham, president of Latham Railway Services.

Moving the proposed alignment for the new Crosstown just 300 feet would allow the new highway to avoid cutting through Union Station’s rail yard, taking out some of the tracks leading to the station. Oklahoma Department of Transportation Director Gary Ridley disagreed. Delaying the Crosstown realignment project for the sake of again reworking the alignment is a dangerous proposition, he said, as the existing Crosstown structure should have been replaced years ago.

Latham worked for years for Dallas’ DART passenger rail system. Officials for Amtrak and the city of Dallas greatly underestimated how much room they would need to build a multi-modal transportation hub out of that city’s Union Station.

The Dallas facility is close to the Hyatt hotel, which had sought to expand by purchasing more of the station’s property. Now the city would like to expand the train facility, but there is no more room. “I would encourage anything that could be done,” said Latham. “It would be of no small significance to lose this asset.”

A multi-modal hub would not only carry passengers, but would allow goods to be transferred from train to truck and vice versa – a feature impossible to build at Oklahoma City’s far-above-street-level Santa Fe Station. The Santa Fe Station lacks the land, the parking space, and many other amenities already in place at the Union Station.

Latham encouraged lawmakers to consider what future generations will need, as the price of gasoline is making train projects ever more attractive. Times have changed in the last 10 years, said state Rep. Wallace Collins, D-Norman. “Back when gas was a dollar-something a gallon, well, who cares?” Collins said of the proposal to run the highway through Union Station’s yard. “We had a different outlook then.”

The future might require Oklahoma to build an intrastate passenger rail system; if and when that day comes, it would cost much more to rebuild a facility like Union Station’s than it would cost to preserve the station’s yard.

Marion Hutchison, of a citizens’ group calling itself OnTrac, or Oklahomans for New Transportation Alternatives Coalition, brought excerpts from a letter by former Dallas DART official Marvin Monaghan. In his letter, Monaghan wrote, “it would be unfortunate for them (Oklahoma City) to make the same mistake.”

Hutchison and Latham could not say how much it would cost to alter the alignment of the new Crosstown, or how much it would cost to upgrade existing tracks to make them suitable for passenger rail. Depending on the route chosen, how many miles of track are planned, and the extent of the project, the price could vary widely. But the state could today start with passenger trains that run at between 60 and 70 miles per hour on existing track for little money, Hutchison said.

Ridley said he could not estimate how much it would cost to realign the project at this stage. So far, $315 million has been committed to the project, which is expected to require another $180 million to complete. ODOT officials just spent an unexpected $1.4 million dealing with an unexpected environmental problem – an acid pit left over from a turn-of-the-century factory discovered right where some structural pillar supports must be built.

In 2005, the 4.5-mile Crosstown realignment project was expected to cost $360 million, but the price rises ever higher the longer the project takes. Former state Sen. Dave Herbert said a proposal to build a brand-new high-speed rail line from Oklahoma City to Tulsa, capable of carrying trains moving at 180 mph, was estimated at $880 million.

Oklahoma’s only passenger rail service, the Heartland Flyer, makes one trip to and from Fort Worth each day, and that service is subsidized by Oklahoma and Texas at $2 million each. Herbert pointed out that all public transportation systems are subsidized by the government.“You could run that for 30 years before coming close to what we provided for an NBA team,” Herbert said.

[Insider]

We can't keep stopping everytime someone complains about the alignment of the crosstown to re-examine its location. The freakin bridge that the current I-40 is on is going to collapse one of these days. Why can't people realize this? Oklahoma City has so much land at its disposal...We are one of the largest cities in the freakin country. Move the station and be done with it. I agree that trains are important. But so is replacing this bridge.

[bombermwc]

My complaint....if they had a problem with this, they should have voiced their concerns back when the project was being designed, NOT after construction had begun.

And, if they did voice their opinions and they were overridden, then shut the crap up.

[metro]

bombermwc, two things:

1.) people did voice their concerns back then, no one wanted to listen, furthermore, we were all told what "we wanted" by Earnest Istook and ODOT, while at the same time, he had no problem getting SLC money for their light rail projects. We were told what route (out of the 4-5 options) we wanted.
2.) As the article stated, the economics were different back then, no one cared about rail here or in places much larger. At least Dallas, Denver, Portland, etc. all had the foresight to see this crisis coming one day. Gas was $1 something a gallon, now it's $5 in some parts of the US and trends only predict it to rise as supply/demand economics kick in on a worldwide scale. People are thinking more and more about mass and alternative transit now than they were 7 years ago.

[BDP]

We can't keep stopping everytime someone complains about the alignment of the crosstown to re-examine its location. The freakin bridge that the current I-40 is on is going to collapse one of these days. Why can't people realize this? Oklahoma City has so much land at its disposal...We are one of the largest cities in the freakin country. Move the station and be done with it. I agree that trains are important. But so is replacing this bridge.

OR, we could salvage infrastructure we already have in place and mitigate both construction costs of a rail system AND maintenance costs on our new road in the future by controlling the growth of traffic on it with a new system.

My complaint....if they had a problem with this, they should have voiced their concerns back when the project was being designed, NOT after construction had begun.

And, if they did voice their opinions and they were overridden, then shut the crap up.

OR, we can continue to make sure that we do not simply follow one mistake with another one. Until it is built, there is still opportunity to make sure we implement the right infrastructure for Oklahoma City's future instead of just accepting the one that is forced upon us.

Obviously, we need the new road, but Oklahoma City really needs to stop accepting the compromises forced upon it if it wants to continue to mature into a competitive market. We miss opportunity after opportunity because we "take what we can get". No doubt, concerns about the loss of our rail yards were voiced to the commission and they ignored it. If anything, funding and planning delays by the committee and congress are what have allowed this debate to continue and as long as they continue to drag their feet, I hope that we continue to ask for the best possible project that gives Oklahoma City the most transportation and infrastructure opportunities at the best cost.

Really, if one thinks that we will ever include rail in our transportation portfolio, then one should very much be in favor of trying to salvage what we have. The cost of creating a system from scratch could very well create a barrier to entry that keeps the possibility of an Oklahoma City metro rail system as just a pipe dream for many more years, which, I suspect, is actually the goal of some people behind the planning...

[oneforone]

If this movement to stop/reduce the new I-40 succeeds, I think I am going to start a campaign to save old big box stores. People just love those old useless places. The memories of people waiting in line to buy things and getting angry at retail minions have to count for something.

[betts]

"A multi-modal hub would not only carry passengers, but would allow goods to be transferred from train to truck and vice versa – a feature impossible to build at Oklahoma City’s far-above-street-level Santa Fe Station. The Santa Fe Station lacks the land, the parking space, and many other amenities already in place at the Union Station. "

And completely ruins the aesthetic value of parks north and south of the station. In fact, if we do this, I say screw the park. Why spend money on something no one will visit? Let's leave the Core to Shore area warehouses and concentrate on making some other part of our city beautiful because it's not going to happen there, and we're not going to get people to move there. The Convention Center and a couple of hotels would work if they faced the Myriad Gardens rather than the trucking zones. Why relocate I-40 at all? If we're going to use Union Station for heavy rail and commercial rail, we have no need to spend money trying to make I-40 attractive.

[jbrown84]

Really, if one thinks that we will ever include rail in our transportation portfolio, then one should very much be in favor of trying to salvage what we have. The cost of creating a system from scratch could very well create a barrier to entry that keeps the possibility of an Oklahoma City metro rail system as just a pipe dream for many more years, which, I suspect, is actually the goal of some people behind the planning...

No one here is saying we don't need rail. There is nothing to save at Union Station. There aren't rows and rows of tracks, there is no usable infrastructure. IF we were actually going to use Union Station as a hub, then it would be worthwhile to save the land for a future railyard, but we are not. The C2S masterplan does not call for a transit hub at Union Station. Such would ruin the entire C2S plan. The station will go further east near bricktown.

[wsucougz]

And completely ruins the aesthetic value of parks north and south of the station. In fact, if we do this, I say screw the park. Why spend money on something no one will visit? Let's leave the Core to Shore area warehouses and concentrate on making some other part of our city beautiful because it's not going to happen there, and we're not going to get people to move there. The Convention Center and a couple of hotels would work if they faced the Myriad Gardens rather than the trucking zones. Why relocate I-40 at all? If we're going to use Union Station for heavy rail and commercial rail, we have no need to spend money trying to make I-40 attractive.

A matter of opinion, I suppose. I, for one, think it would not only be pretty cool to have train service coming in and out of central park, but that it would end up being one of the most unique and beloved things about OKC in the long run. Maybe not heavy rail, but definitely a passenger line.

[Midtowner]

Perhaps what developers... er I mean "city officials" are concerned about is the fact that they won't be able to sell off nearly as many lots with ridiculous /sq. ft. costs, and that perhaps with a noisy train running through the middle of their planned low-rise brownstones, etc., potential buyers might balk at the noise level.

All legitimate concerns, of course. For the developers, no question about it, moving the alignment would be bad. For the rest of the city? It's not the tracks which would be saved, it's the right-of-ways and their utility which would be saved.

Rail is coming. If not in the next 5 years, then within the next 20. As a matter of public policy, America simply cannot maintain its current level of energy consumption for the foreseeable future. There will have to be cuts.

As a city, we can either be proactive or be a step behind. Our decision, in my opinion, is going to have a huge impact on the future viability of our economy.

[Kerry]

A matter of opinion, I suppose. I, for one, think it would not only be pretty cool to have train service coming in and out of central park, but that it would end up being one of the most unique and beloved things about OKC in the long run. Maybe not heavy rail, but definitely a passenger line.

wsucougz - the station and 2 sets of track will remain after I-40 is done. Tom and his group want put in 8 sets of track in the middle of a park. Several years ago I had the misfortune of seeing a video of woman crossing several sets of tracks. She was running across a small freight yard to catch a passenger train. She ran from behind a park train and stepped right in front of a freight train. It wasn't pretty. I don't even know if you can mix pedistrains and frieght processing in this country.

[BDP]

I, for one, think it would not only be pretty cool to have train service coming in and out of central park,

Totally agree. Why wouldn't we want a park right at the transit hub?

How is this limited to freight. Every discussion on this topic involves passenger trains. A transit bub, with unions station as the hub, in the C2S district next to a park would be world class, imo.

[Kerry]

BDP - you need to pay more attention to Tom and his group. They want heavy freight at Union Station just as much as they want passengers.

[Platemaker]

wsucougz - the station and 2 sets of track will remain after I-40 is done. Tom and his group want put in 8 sets of track in the middle of a park.

EXACTLY!
We get a new crosstown... AND we still have two tracks for rail of some kind. I still can't undersand what the fuss is about. Why do some think we need 6 extra tracks in order for Union Station to still be used?

[jbrown84]

We don't. Some kind of rail line going through there is one thing, but ELMORE wants freaking Penn Station smack in the middle of a park, which ultimately means no park. It wont happen if he gets his way.

[The Old Downtown Guy]

We can't keep stopping every time someone complains about the alignment of the crosstown to re-examine its location. The freakin bridge that the current I-40 is on is going to collapse one of these days. Why can't people realize this? Oklahoma City has so much land at its disposal...We are one of the largest cities in the freakin country. Move the station and be done with it. I agree that trains are important. But so is replacing this bridge.

Unfortunately your unconsidered and seriously flawed opinion is shared by far too many people, including the Director and engineers at ODOT.

Yes OKC has over six hundred square miles of land within its boundaries, but it has very few building sites with a view of our downtown skyline . . . makes these sites more valuable than sites in the middle of a wheat field on the city fringe. OKC has very little land surrounding a major park . . . valuable land again. OKC has more and more urban trails running through its neighborhoods and the mere presence of those trails makes those neighborhoods more attractive to buyers. OKC has no fixed rail transit stations, but it could have and should have as they are a development magnet of the highest order.

OKC has only one Union Station and rail yard sitting on the site it is sitting on and once its gone . . . its gone forever . . . . train stations are immovable. It's like the heart beating in your chest . . . without the heart, the veins and arteries are useless.

If rail transit came and went from Union Station, the adjacent and nearby land and related development would be valued at two, three, four, who knows how many times as much as the same land absent passenger rail transit at Union Station.

[The Old Downtown Guy]

. . . . Several years ago I had the misfortune of seeing a video of woman crossing several sets of tracks. She was running across a small freight yard to catch a passenger train. She ran from behind a park train and stepped right in front of a freight train. It wasn't pretty. I don't even know if you can mix pedistrains and frieght processing in this country.

Interesting you should mention that Kerry, since the plan is to remove the existing grade seperated rail crossings at Robinson and Walker and replace them with crossings at grade . . . in the street. Not too progressive.

[Platemaker]

OKC has only one Union Station and rail yard sitting on the site it is sitting on and once its gone . . . its gone forever . . . . train stations are immovable. It's like the heart beating in your chest . . . without the heart, the veins and arteries are useless.

Ahh... I'm getting all misty...

If rail transit came and went from Union Station, the adjacent and nearby land and related development would be valued at two, three, four, who knows how many times as much as the same land absent passenger rail transit at Union Station.

Again... Union Station can STILL be used. There will STILL be the building. There will STILL be usable tracks.

[Platemaker]

Interesting you should mention that Kerry, since the plan is to remove the existing grade seperated rail crossings at Robinson and Walker and replace them with crossings at grade . . . in the street. Not too progressive.

Ughh... the rail line will be at grade with the crosstown.... both of which will be BELOW grade with the surface streets.

[wsucougz]

wsucougz - the station and 2 sets of track will remain after I-40 is done. Tom and his group want put in 8 sets of track in the middle of a park. Several years ago I had the misfortune of seeing a video of woman crossing several sets of tracks. She was running across a small freight yard to catch a passenger train. She ran from behind a park train and stepped right in front of a freight train. It wasn't pretty. I don't even know if you can mix pedistrains and frieght processing in this country.

2 sets of track will remain, but the east/west line will be severed, making the 2 sets kind of a stub, right? Will this limit their ability to be very useful?

[betts]

OKC has only one Union Station and rail yard sitting on the site it is sitting on and once its gone . . . its gone forever . . . . train stations are immovable. It's like the heart beating in your chest . . . without the heart, the veins and arteries are useless.

I fail to see how Union Station is made better by being a train station. Especially considering it's in a location far inferior to other potential sites for stations.

If rail transit came and went from Union Station, the adjacent and nearby land and related development would be valued at two, three, four, who knows how many times as much as the same land absent passenger rail transit at Union Station.

Not valuable to me. No valuable to potential residents. If it's being used for trucking and commercial rail, the adjacent property will be warehouses. No park.

Oklahoma City has the chance to reinvent itself (sorry to borrow the phrase). We have a chance to take a blighted area that no one even sees because there's no reason to go there and build an iconic park, to make it a place people want to live and recreate, to dine and work. This is an ugly city, and to make it a place more people want to live, we need to beautify it, we need community spaces in our downtown for people to gather, to build a community and make memories. Leisure time is treasured by people, and we have the chance to give people a central place in our city to spend their leisure time. Or, we can sacrifice it to the concept of mass transit that hasn't even been studied properly. We don't even know who would use this line, if there are enough potential users to make it economically feasible.

I'm firmly behind making this a city people want to visit and live in, AND studying transporation needs thoroughly before we assume we know what people will want and use.

[veritas]

I take warm solace in the fact that no amount of complaining is going to change the momentum of this project.



/Alexis de Tocqueville should have investigated the tyranny of the minority

[blangtang]

maybe once this iconic park is being developed, they will find some old acid sludge pits right in the middle. who would want to live by that?

[The Old Downtown Guy]

History has a message for us and it is that in matters where the government, large institutions, private corporations etc. have been dishonest in their actions, when they have misled the public, when they have manipulated and distorted information to serve an interest that is not the public interest and a small group of citizens has rallied to the challenge of taking them to task; and the small group of citizens has stopped the forward progress of the ill-conceived enterprise, held it at bay for a time and then had the strength and determination to push the public discourse in the direction that indeed serves the public interest, the small group of courageous, tireless, vigilant citizens have always . . . . always . . . . succeeded in rescuing their vision of the public good from the jaws of the destruction.

The small band of dedicated stalwarts that believe the future of Oklahoma is best served by maintaining the strong rail transportation presence based in the potential of the Union Station rail yard infrastructure has held their ground and turned the tide. Now we may see what all the real options and opportunities are.

We can make all the comments we want from the sideline, but that is indeed where we sit . . . . on our lazy asses . . . on the sideline. We are not in the fray and we have no say in the outcome.

[blangtang]

Council passes rail resolution
By Carol Cole-Frowe

Norman councilmembers unanimously passed a resolution in support of preserving the state's chance for an intermodal rail system and preservation of the Union Station rail yard at their regular Tuesday evening meeting.

The resolution requests Gov. Brad Henry to appoint a special commission to consider future rail transit options in the Oklahoma City area, future uses of Union Station and its rail yard and alternative routes for the Interstate-40 Crosstown Expressway.

It states that the rail yard "lies at the center of the state's unique network linking the state's major towns, Tinker Air Force Base and Will Rogers World Airport and is the last grand urban passenger rail yard in the west that remains virtually unused with all of its original space and much of its essential infrastructure intact, including numerous tracks connecting every corner of the state."

Ward 7 councilmember Doug Cubberley said with current fuel prices and increased regulation of ozone levels, the atmosphere has changed in favor of alternative transportation.

Marion Hutchison, communications director of OnTrac, a group trying to preserve the rail yard, told councilmembers the Union Station rail yard is a "big economic driver."

"We really can't afford to be left behind," Hutchison said. "This really is an irreplaceable state asset."

He said nobody is arguing that the I-40 Crosstown Expressway needs to be relocated.

"I don't think anyone will argue with that," Hutchison said.

But the Crosstown's current relocation site would eliminate most of the rail yard.

Hutchison said the proposed relocation could move about 300 feet south without drastically affecting its right-of-way acquisition, which is one of the major expenses involved in relocating the interstate.

"Essentially what we looked at was what was the simplest alternative," he said.

He said the right-of-way in the area already has been cleared.

"This is not a proposal that is in any way negative to the current (ODOT) proposal," Hutchison said. "But this allows us to save the current infrastructure."

He acknowledges that the revamping of the engineering for the project would cost money.

"We feel like it would be worth it in the long run," Hutchison said, noting that other cities have spent up to $500 million to establish a rail yard.

Ward 2 councilmember Tom Kovach said one advantage to ODOT would be that if they were to slightly move the Crosstown to save the rail yard, it would nullify a ruling by the Federal Surface Transportation Board blocking the vacating of the Burlington Northern Santa Fe rail lines. The ruling came as a result of a lawsuit by Ed Kessler, a longtime rail proponent and an advocate for Union Station rail yard.

Hutchison said central New Mexico's rail system had more than 1 million riders in two years, with a similar or less density compared to Oklahoma City.

Tuesday evening's vote was a far cry from the previous attempt about four years ago, when the measure failed on a 4-4 vote. That time, ODOT officials sat in the front row of council chambers and fought city officials and proponents on the vote.

Kovach said the fight is far from over to save the rail yard. He recommended supporters write legislators and other state leaders.

"We need a public and political commitment," Hutchison said.
The Norman Transcript - Council passes rail resolution