Guessing Game

[Doug Loudenback]

As I work on changing my blog's template to include newer features which are not available in my existing template, I've put up sort of a guessing game from some 1903 Chamber of Commerce photos while that template update is being worked on, for those interested.

For example, #1 is:

# 1 - Where was this 1903 panorama taken from?
Larger: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49...c_1903_010.jpg



I've thrown in a couple of 1903 ads from the 1903 COC book, just for fun!

#7 & 8 -- Advertisements
The book contained advertisements for local shops, including the frisky Southern Club, not shown here. But here are a pair I thought you might enjoy.

Larger: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49...c_1903_141.jpg



Larger: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49...c_1903_149.jpg



Since the frisky Southern Club was also featured in the 1903 book as a valued member of the Chamber, that fact, combined with the above ad for bathroom fixtures, my thought is that those facts provide an interesting perspective as to what was "OK" in 1903.

See Doug Dawgz Blog: Trouble Note and Guessing Game for a few more.

[Martin]

my guess on #1 is the tower from okc's first fire station.

i'd have to say #2 is delmar gardens.

...not certain on the rest.


btw... while i was looking throught that album, i saw this image and unless i'm just confusing myself, i don't think your placement of i-35 (in the upper left) is correct.

-M

[Kerry]

For some reason I have a desire to purchase bathroom fixtures.

[Doug Loudenback]

my guess on #1 is the tower from okc's first fire station.

i'd have to say #2 is delmar gardens.

...not certain on the rest.


btw... while i was looking throught that album, i saw this image and unless i'm just confusing myself, i don't think your placement of i-35 (in the upper left) is correct.

-M

Thanks, 3M! But keep guessing, M! Wrong on both counts (although I'll do some redundant checking on #2 to be sure)!

ON EDIT: You may be correct about #2, MMM. The COC photo does identify the "name" of the park (it's not Delmar) and that's what I'm trying to pin down. I could say the "name" but that would give away the answer if one knew for sure where the park bearing that "name" was located! That said, you may be correct.

Thanks for the comment about the COC aerial ... this and other COC photos will be part of an upcoming Trains article (it should have been done by now but I get sidetracked easily). I'll look at it again ... and compare it with other aerials having a similar vantage point of the river if I can find any. What's your take on that particular roadway?

And, Kerry, I understand! In 1903, some bathroom fixture ads must have been something like Playboy today, VERY relatively speaking!

[Doug Loudenback]

On further study ... MMM GETS #2 CORRECT! In the COC book the photo is shown to be "Colcord Park," and I'd thought that to be in the original fairgrounds area immediately east of the warehouse district. Not so. From Charles F. Colcord's bio here: Pages 37-46 which states:

[Colcord is] president of the Colcord Park Corporation, which owns a tract of one hundred and sixty acres in the city devoted to public amusement and recreation, including the baseball park, the race track, Delmar Garden, etc.

From that, it is evident that while Colcord Park may not have been exactly identified with Delmar Garden in 1903, it certainly must have had the Delmar Garden location.

to MMM for getting the 1st correct answer!

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

1st pic...Oil derrick at the state capitol?

[Doug Loudenback]

Nope. The State Capitol Building did not exist in 1903! The photo vantage point was much closer to downtown, and looked to the southeast.

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

Well I just meant from that area. But okay.

[Doug Loudenback]

Not even close to that area ... try again!

[Luke]

From St. Anthony?

[Doug Loudenback]

Getting closer, but nope.

[amaesquire]

Plaza Court?

[Luke]

Plaza Court?

That diagonal road would be obvious, I would think, if it was from Plaza Court.

[Martin]

on further study ... mmm gets #2 correct!

yes! the architecture looked like that of delmar gardens... and i remembered that it had a track.

thanks for the comment about the coc aerial ... this and other coc photos will be part of an upcoming trains article

ahh... that makes sense now. i wasn't thinking that the point of the map was railways. so... all the purple lines are tracks... i was under the impression that the purple line above the left 'interstate 35' label pointed to where you thought i-35 was in that picture... which obviously isn't the case. but... i understand now. we're on the same page!

did you ever find out where the 'phillips gas plant' was?

-M

[Martin]

from st. anthony?

getting closer, but nope.

ahhh... seems to fit better in my mind now... i was thinking in terms of being farther south before... obviously there would've been much less city to look at if the picture was looking southeast from a point in the south part of vintage okc.

so we're in the northwest part of 1903 okc looking southeast... i'm going to guess that the wide east/west space running across the middle of the picture is north tenth street. if true, that would put this picture at around north 16th street... so i'm going to say that we're on the roof of the newly built epworth university.

-M

[Doug Loudenback]

Here's how you're faring so far, guys.

MMM got the hit for #2.

Not shown here but in my blog's comments, Steve got the hit for #3.

None have gotten #s 1, 4, 5 or 6 -- in fact, none have even guessed about #s 4-6.

As to #1, Luke was closest when he said St. Anthony (a similar perspective was said by amaesquire's guess, Plaza Court, but Plaza Court did not then exist). MMM, Epworth is much further NW than the vantage point of this picture.

Here's a major clue for #1: The picture was taken from a building that was destroyed by fire in 1917 but was rebuilt at the same location which later building exists today.

MMM, do you now think that the aerial map you mentioned is correct? If so, I'll abandon further checking. As for the Phillips plant location, no, I've made no "real" progress other than pinning down the location given in a 1/29/1930 Oklahoman article which said that it was in "NW NW SW 32, 11 3" which has to translate to Section 32, TN 3 N, R 3 W of the Indian Meridian. No other legal description combo fits Oklahoma County (the article was not specific about whether the township was north or south, or whether the range was east or west, but nothing else than what I just said "fits").

Here's where that places the plant (using the 1903 plat map with street and RR names superimposed, and adding the OKC Junction rail lines which didn't exist in 1903:

Larger: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49...nelocation.jpg



If the Oklahoman article is correct, then Phillips must have built its own connection tracks to one or both of the Frisco and/or Santa Fe, it seems to me. But, I'm just guessing. I'd like to find something more authoritative to pin it down other than the Oklahoman article.

[rondvu]

1 From St Joe's catholic church
2 Delmar Gardens
3 3rd and Broadway part of the Sandridge complex was some kind of temple India, I think.
4 St Anthony's hosp
5 The Culberson building
6 Overholser Opera House
7 Frisky's must have been Doug's boyhood clubhouse

Hopefully I got a few right. What is the grand prize for the winner?

[Doug Loudenback]

1 From St Joe's catholic church
2 Delmar Gardens
3 3rd and Broadway part of the Sandridge complex was some kind of temple India, I think.
4 St Anthony's hosp
5 The Culberson building
6 Overholser Opera House
7 Frisky's must have been Doug's boyhood clubhouse

Hopefully I got a few right. What is the grand prize for the winner?

Whoa! Good job rondvu! Not 100%, but very good:

1. From St. Joe's ... nope, incorrect
2. The racetrack, yes, same as Delmar Garden, but MMM beat you to it!
3. India Temple, yes! But Steve beat you to it in the blog's responses, but you're the 1st to mention it here. This 1902 building, now with a facade on its exterior, is at the SE corner of the Sandridge (formerly Kerr-McGee) campus. From 1913-1917, it served as the temporary quarters for the Oklahoma Legislature until the State Capitol Building was done. Sandridge hasn't yet said what it will do with this very historic Oklahoma City building.
4. St. Anthony's is CORRECT! You're the 1st! This was the 1st "permanent" St. Anthony's hospital, at the same location as today. This structure was built in 1899 at 1000 N. Lee, then outside Oklahoma City's limits.
5. Culbertson Building is CORRECT! You're the 1st! This 1902 building sat on the Broadway "jog" at Grand (now Sheridan), later with the Phillips 66 sign on its top, and many early day photos were taken from its top looking north on Broadway.
6. Overholser Opera House is CORRECT and you're the 1st. Later, this building became the Orpheum, and, last, the Warner, OKC's 1st Cinerama theater. In the later days, a Beverly's Chicken-in-the-Rough was immediately east of it, next to which was the Colcord Building.
7. Frisky's falls into Doug Dawgz Wish List category, so, though it wasn't offered as a "guess," since you read my thoughts so well, YOU ARE CORRECT and get BONUS POINTS!

The grand prize winner gets to take a bath with #8, if you can find her (but keeping in mind that she'd now be 105 years old, plus the years of her age before the 1903 drawing was made ... unless you can pull off a Somewhere In Time exercise)!

All that remains is that illusive #1 ... WHO WILL CRACK #1?

[Doug Loudenback]

Another clue as to #1 ... look closely at the larger image ...

Larger image: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49...c_1903_010.jpg



... and you should be able to see east/west rail lines running through downtown.

Does that help?

[Doug Loudenback]

I'll give these last clues to #1 ... cropped ...

In 1903, the warehouse district's construction of buildings surpassed what was going on in what we think of as "downtown" today. The most significant "downtown" construction was along Broadway. The further west from Broadway you went, the fewer "commercial" buildings there were. More non-residential buildings were to be found east of the Santa Fe tracks, in the warehouse district, than there were west of Broadway. While that would quickly change, the #1 COC photo presents what was true in 1903 (or when that photo was taken, perhaps in 1902 or 1903) and shows that the area we think of as "downtown" today was largely residential.

Larger view of this crop: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49...3_010_crop.jpg



In 1903, an east-west pair of railroad tracks passed along what is known as Couch Drive today, although that "street" did not exist in 1903. The next image is the same as the above, except that the location of today's Couch Drive is shown ...

Larger view of this crop: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49..._010_crop2.jpg



If these clues don't cut it, perhaps you should just go back to school (no disrespect intended).

[jstanthrnme]

Courthouse??

[Doug Loudenback]

Courthouse??

Nope ... your going in the wrong direction. Go north along Walker to get warm, and maybe HOT (another clue).

[bornhere]

Emerson School? (Although I don't know what that would have to do with being hot)

[Martin]

mmm, do you now think that the aerial map you mentioned is correct?

i think so... i initially thought you were trying to place i-35 where the at & sf runs... that was the only real issue i had. i threw this map together when i was trying to figure it out for myself. now that i'm reading your map correctly, it looks to me as if we're on the same page.

as for the phillips plant, you've really piqued my curiosity. i simply can't believe that there were rail tracks running anywhere near sw 82nd & penn... it just doesn't appeal to common sense. besides, i'd think that there'd have to be some evidence remaining... something that big doesn't just disappear.

i'd like to read the articles for myself, but i need to renew my library card as it magically expired a few months ago. in the meantime, i bought a 1983 book on phillips corporate history that came in yesterday... it might shed some light on the matter.

my current hypothesis is that maybe the 'gasoline plant' was a separate thing from the rail yard shown in the pictures... initially, i supposed that a 'gasoline plant' was synonymous for a 'gasoline refinery' but i'm finding that the term could be used for a 'natural gasoline' plant... which is a much smaller operation. it's possible that such a plant could have existed in sw okc and the product from that plant was piped to the closest rail yard. one of your pictures is of a shiny silver tank with 'phillips 66' emblazoned on its side... that looks like it could be a high pressure tank for natural gas. another potential piece of evidence as to where those rail pics are... there's a 'phillips drive' just west of kelley that used to run all the way to reno... so that's a possible connection. i really want to know where this place was... i'm only bouncing ideas at this point!

-M

[Doug Loudenback]

Emerson School? (Although I don't know what that would have to do with being hot)

bornhere, YES! #1 is solved! Congratulations! Now, let me see if I can find your prize ...

Didn't you ever play hot & cold ... getting warmer, warmer, getting hot, getting cold?