Jenks vs Union again

[kwash]

Dang folks its Jenks vs Union again for 6A state championship, someone told me today this is a record for any state in america to have the same 2 teams continue to play for the high school football title, its like 13 in a row. Is there anyone else playing football in 6A in Oklahoma besides these 2 teams, wow its kinda sad.

[braunstation]

well it is ashame especially for okc metro teams. i use to go to games untill this season, there is a bad bad lack of support for hs football in this city. ive been to a lot of schools games and the stands quite frankly are usually empty. i mean name a school pcn, norman north, norman high, westmoore, edmond schools, yep they all usually have the stands about half full for games, and if its a road game in the city, it will be completly empty. you just dont see that in tulsa, hard to explain

[Easy180]

Best recruiters in the state

[MustangGT]

Amen to that.

[bluedogok]

I have pretty much ignored the playoffs for many years, of course PC West hasn't been very good since I was in school there (1981 4A Championship, the last 4A "big school" championship) but I always did pay attention when a school from the western part of the state was in one slot. Anymore Jenks/Union just seems to be in their own class. I wish someone in the west would compete.

We pay more attention to the playoffs in Texas, the Central Texas teams and my wife's alma mater Monahans (Midland/Odessa area) won their 3A-District II Regional last night and we will probably go to the game against Brownwood in San Angelo next Friday.

[jmarkross]

I have pretty much ignored the playoffs for many years, of course PC West hasn't been very good since I was in school there (1981 4A Championship, the last 4A "big school" championship) but I always did pay attention when a school from the western part of the state was in one slot. Anymore Jenks/Union just seems to be in their own class. I wish someone in the west would compete.

We pay more attention to the playoffs in Texas, the Central Texas teams and my wife's alma mater Monahans (Midland/Odessa area) won their 3A-District II Regional last night and we will probably go to the game against Brownwood in San Angelo next Friday.

Quite a lot of great college football players came from Monahans and the Midland/Odessa area...

[MustangGT]

Friday Night Lights originated with the Permian Panthers.

[soonerfan_in_okc]

they need to create another class. The difference between the smallest and largest 6a schools is ridiculous, like 3000 kids. Only way to give schools like pcwest a chance is to create a new class. I wish it would happen, and both parties (tulsa schools and okc schools) would be happy

[ljbab728]

they need to create another class. The difference between the smallest and largest 6a schools is ridiculous, like 3000 kids. Only way to give schools like pcwest a chance is to create a new class. I wish it would happen, and both parties (tulsa schools and okc schools) would be happy

Local schools would certainly be competitive if they followed the same premise as those school districts. Can you imagine having just one high school in Edmond, Norman, or Moore? They would easily be winning some championships.

[bluedogok]

PC West suffers from more than just a school size problem, pretty much the same kind of issues that affected most of the OKC School District high schools. Too much transition, lack of players, apathy by everyone around the school. I know that it is a much different school than when I went there (79-82) and the time my sister was there (90-94). She teaches in an elementary school that feeds into West so she sees much of it up close. I think the current staff is making strides with what they have but the fact they only get 40-50 players out for football a season is a far cry from the 100+ that went out for football in my day and the school is about the same size. At Mayfield we would get about 90 out for each 8th and 9th grade teams, that is not happening now.

I don't think it as much about making teams like West competitive, it is about making the Moore, Norman, Edmond, Midwest City and Lawton schools more competitive against the schools in the east. I still think the behemoth schools like Jenks, Union and Broken Arrow do a disservice to the students but it should be up to the school boards and parents to make those type of changes. Moore, Norman and Edmond broke up their great teams to make things better for most students. I don't feel it is something the state or OSSSA should legislate, school districts should look beyond the athletic success and towards the whole student which it seems like some don't, I know that can be an issue for some districts down here.

Local schools would certainly be competitive if they followed the same premise as those school districts. Can you imagine having just one high school in Edmond, Norman, or Moore? They would easily be winning some championships.

They used to......

[soonerfan_in_okc]

PC West suffers from more than just a school size problem, pretty much the same kind of issues that affected most of the OKC School District high schools. Too much transition, lack of players, apathy by everyone around the school. I know that it is a much different school than when I went there (79-82) and the time my sister was there (90-94). She teaches in an elementary school that feeds into West so she sees much of it up close. I think the current staff is making strides with what they have but the fact they only get 40-50 players out for football a season is a far cry from the 100+ that went out for football in my day and the school is about the same size. At Mayfield we would get about 90 out for each 8th and 9th grade teams, that is not happening now.

I don't think it as much about making teams like West competitive, it is about making the Moore, Norman, Edmond, Midwest City and Lawton schools more competitive against the schools in the east. I still think the behemoth schools like Jenks, Union and Broken Arrow do a disservice to the students but it should be up to the school boards and parents to make those type of changes. Moore, Norman and Edmond broke up their great teams to make things better for most students. I don't feel it is something the state or OSSSA should legislate, school districts should look beyond the athletic success and towards the whole student which it seems like some don't, I know that can be an issue for some districts down here.

They used to......

PC west was probably a bad example, but it was just one that popped in my head.

You are right, but it is in the interest of everyone for fair competition in class 6A. the OSSAA cannot force large schools to split up, which obviously would be wrong, but creating an extra class is more than reasonable. As this enrollment form shows, the discrepancy in enrollment is unacceptable. How can ANYONE expect Del City, with 1263 students, to compete with teams like Broken Arrow and Union that have more than 4000 students.


http://ossaa.com/Portals/0/docs/OSSA...010_11_adm.pdf

[Wally]

How could Jenks possibly compete with Broken Arrow who has over 1700 more students!?!?! I guess it kind of matters what type of system is in place from 5th-12th grade. Its also an advantage when you have good coaching.

[Bigrayok]

A lot of good athletes that would attend Putnam City West end up attending Bethany. Bethany used to be mediocre at best in sports but something like 60 percent of its students are transfers including a number of kids that would attend Putnam City or West. That is one reason I laugh when people gripe about Jenks recruiting or private schools recruiting since Bethany is a public school that functions almost like a private school. It is rarely brought up when the private school versus public school debate occurs about sports. What is more ironic is Kent Shellenberger, the Superintendent of Bethany schools, is the chair of the OSSA committee studying the private school issue.

Bigray in Ok

[bluedogok]

I know many who has done that with their kids and my sister has had many of her elementary school students transfer out of the PC district to Bethany once they hit middle school. When I was in school it was the inverse, Bethany was where you went if you got into trouble academically at PC or PC West. I knew plenty who went through Bethany but most actually lived in the Bethany school district, it wasn't until the mid-90's that I heard of students from all PC schools transferring in. I don't think Jenks, Union and others recruit like some schools did in years past, sure some of it may happen but I think it is different. It's always been a potential issue with many schools, I know that Frederick has always seemed to have some guys from Wichita Falls transfer in. When my cousin was head coach at Elgin I went to one of the Elgin-Frederick games. Frederick had 80 or so players on the sideline, Elgin had 45 and the tailback for Frederick was larger than any player my cousin had on his team and it was a district game.

Private schools have always had the recruiting issue to deal with just because of the nature of their student population. Sometimes it can work, Mullen High School in Denver won their third straight 5A state championship over Regis Jesuit, that is two private schools in the largest classification playoff final in Colorado.

[earlywinegareth]

There are 3 power schools - Jenks, Union, and Broken Arrow. They refuse to split putting trophies above participation. Edmond, Moore, and Norman put participation ahead of trophies. Our kids get to play on the field, not watch from the sideline.

[ljbab728]

There are 3 power schools - Jenks, Union, and Broken Arrow. They refuse to split putting trophies above participation. Edmond, Moore, and Norman put participation ahead of trophies. Our kids get to play on the field, not watch from the sideline.

I've never seen any figures, but I would suspect that the number of athletes getting colleges scholarships are higher at Edmond, Moore, and Norman also, even if it's not at major colleges. I'm sure there are a lot of athletes at the Tulsa area schools who never even get a chance to be seen by a recruiter and lose out completely.

[NickFiggins]

It's true that much of the motivation of the large east schools is athletics, especially Union and Broken Arrow. However for Jenks athletics is not the sole reason, several teachers I have spoken to about this at Jenks have indicated that a second high school in Jenks would also reduce the academic offerings of the school. Jenks offers Chinese and four other languages, which out side of Booker T. the TPS magnet school Chinese is not offered in any other high school. Also the offering of AP classes is increased by just having one school. You can also the success in extracurricular activities that allow students to compete on a national level, this would be much hard to accomplish with a second high school in the district.
Now as far as Union and Broken Arrow, in my opinion it is based purely on athletics. As their academic offerings are typical for any 5-6A high school in Oklahoma.

[MustangGT]

Now as far as Union and Broken Arrow, in my opinion it is based purely on athletics. As their academic offerings are typical for any 5-6A high school in Oklahoma.

The primary sport being footall.

Predominately true. They are also powerhouses in marching band, orchestra, vocal music, etc.

[ljbab728]

It's true that much of the motivation of the large east schools is athletics, especially Union and Broken Arrow. However for Jenks athletics is not the sole reason, several teachers I have spoken to about this at Jenks have indicated that a second high school in Jenks would also reduce the academic offerings of the school. Jenks offers Chinese and four other languages, which out side of Booker T. the TPS magnet school Chinese is not offered in any other high school. Also the offering of AP classes is increased by just having one school. You can also the success in extracurricular activities that allow students to compete on a national level, this would be much hard to accomplish with a second high school in the district.
Now as far as Union and Broken Arrow, in my opinion it is based purely on athletics. As their academic offerings are typical for any 5-6A high school in Oklahoma.

That may be true but, when you're talking about extracurricular activities, having one high school limits the number of students that can participate in things like band, chorus, debate teams, etc. Many will still lose out and those kind of activities are important for resumes when applying for college admission.

[rcjunkie]

This is for the most part, false, Jenks, Union, Broken Arrow, Owasso just have larger bands, debate teams, drill teams, etc;. The Norman High Band as less then 100 members, the Broken Arrow Band as almost 500. The Broken Arrow Drill team as 72 members while Norman High has 18.

[ljbab728]

This is for the most part, false, Jenks, Union, Broken Arrow, Owasso just have larger bands, debate teams, drill teams, etc;. The Norman High Band as less then 100 members, the Broken Arrow Band as almost 500. The Broken Arrow Drill team as 72 members while Norman High has 18.

I don't know for sure about the numbers you're talking about being accurate but I was in band in high school and college and a 500 member band is not functional. The largest college marching bands are in the 250 to 300 range and are kept that size for good reason even though they could have much larger ones and having a concert band or orchestra with numbers like that is ridiculous. If that's true the students are still losing out.

Actually in looking at their website they have 3 concert bands which is equally silly. Why would you have competing concert bands in the same school? None of it makes sense. If it's so wonderful, why doesn't Tulsa have just one high school? Bigger is better, right?

And back to the original subject of athletics, for team sports the team sizes are limited no matter how large the schools are so, again, many are losing out. At least I don't think they are able to put 30 people on the basketball court at the same time, maybe I'm wrong. What do you suppose the chances would be of convincing the OSSAA into letting them have 3 basketball teams? Being able to study Chinese in high school is nice but keep in mind that many students are handicapped by lack of opportunities in trying to get athletic scholarships to schools where they could probably get a full degree in Chinese if they wanted to. Most athletes don't go to college on scholarship with the expectation of making a living from athletics. They use it as a way to get a good education.

[bombermwc]

Actually, rcjunkie was correct about the band numbers. BA's band program actually has a HUGE number of people. What you are thinking of when you see them is Pride. Pride (their competitive marching band), has about 250 in it. They are all VOLUNTEERS! They practice outside of school hours...100%. Unlike every other band in the world, they still have concert band during the day. You can be in band and NOT be in Pride. So they really do have more people than you see. And I believe Owasso's band is just about the same size. Union's is getting close to 200 again these days.

In concert season, they just have many bands. OSSAA uses the "E" class for 2nd bands, so you have the Wind Ensemble, then E band. Owasso also has an EE and EEE band. They also all get Superiors every year in every group and have for something like 30 years.

The point here is consolidation gives you the ability to have resources that you wouldn't otherwise. More poeple, means more opportunities to have better facilities for science labs, more population for honors/AP/IB/etc courses. Instead of having 1 or 2 kids that MIGHT take it, you have 100 that DO.

And in extracurricular courses, you simply have different levels for them. Why do you think JV exists....and 9th grade teams. That's the same argument people have when they say 6A is even too big. I went to MWC (duh), and we were in the middle of 6A (they still are), but we managed to compete with the big boys. We wont basketball state championships, track, I think softball, etc. And now they've been in the semi-finals of football several years in a row. All while competing against schools 3 stimes their size....and it's MWC so it's not like we're Edmond Memorial with lots of cash floating around in the kid's pockets to pay for extra coaches. Don't get your panties in a wad Edmond folks....just pulled a name out of my butt, not making any accusations.

I'd rather see consolidation in 6A and match what the Tulsa schools do. FYI - that's what pretty much every other state does....large schools. And in OKC, as Mustang and Yukon grow, you won't see them split, so in another 25 years, we'll have some big boys here. Also remember that Westmoore was like the 3rd largest school in the state before the split...and they still stunk at a lot of stuff.

[ljbab728]

Actually, rcjunkie was correct about the band numbers. BA's band program actually has a HUGE number of people. What you are thinking of when you see them is Pride. Pride (their competitive marching band), has about 250 in it. They are all VOLUNTEERS! They practice outside of school hours...100%. Unlike every other band in the world, they still have concert band during the day. You can be in band and NOT be in Pride. So they really do have more people than you see. And I believe Owasso's band is just about the same size. Union's is getting close to 200 again these days.

In concert season, they just have many bands. OSSAA uses the "E" class for 2nd bands, so you have the Wind Ensemble, then E band. Owasso also has an EE and EEE band. They also all get Superiors every year in every group and have for something like 30 years.

The point here is consolidation gives you the ability to have resources that you wouldn't otherwise. More poeple, means more opportunities to have better facilities for science labs, more population for honors/AP/IB/etc courses. Instead of having 1 or 2 kids that MIGHT take it, you have 100 that DO.

And in extracurricular courses, you simply have different levels for them. Why do you think JV exists....and 9th grade teams. That's the same argument people have when they say 6A is even too big. I went to MWC (duh), and we were in the middle of 6A (they still are), but we managed to compete with the big boys. We wont basketball state championships, track, I think softball, etc. And now they've been in the semi-finals of football several years in a row. All while competing against schools 3 stimes their size....and it's MWC so it's not like we're Edmond Memorial with lots of cash floating around in the kid's pockets to pay for extra coaches. Don't get your panties in a wad Edmond folks....just pulled a name out of my butt, not making any accusations.

I'd rather see consolidation in 6A and match what the Tulsa schools do. FYI - that's what pretty much every other state does....large schools. And in OKC, as Mustang and Yukon grow, you won't see them split, so in another 25 years, we'll have some big boys here. Also remember that Westmoore was like the 3rd largest school in the state before the split...and they still stunk at a lot of stuff.

That doesn't address the issues I raised about limiting the opportunites for college scholarships for athletes who aren't able to showcase their talents. Many students are still losing out. And where do you draw the line? As I said before, if bigger is better why not just have one high school in Tulsa or one in OKC?
I think it's quite possible potential student leaders get lost in the crowd and therefore don't develop to their full potential. Do they have multiple class offices for president, etc? I can see a feelling of detachment in super large schools leading towards to a type of feelings in certain students which have brought about past tragic incidents. I"m not saying there are no benefits, I just think a system where you have magnet schools in large school systems where there are speciality classes fit the overall needs of the students best.

[bombermwc]

OK well first off, the statement about the tragic incidents is false. We had a shooting at Ft. Gibson, and they are what 3A. Most of the places you hear about shootings are upper middle class suburban posh areas. The stuff that happens everday at a smaller inner city school never gets broadcast, so that's just a bad arguement.

Magnet schools are just a collection of specialty classes that offer opportunities in one school because the smaller schools spread out across the district don't have enough students in one place to offer the courses. So you just made my arguement for me with the larger school....larger population = more students = more of the "magnet" courses.

And as for athletes, if that's the only drawback, I'll take it. Seems to me that when the largest school in the state still fails to make it past round 1 or maybe 2 in football a few times in 20 years, tells me talent base is as much a coach as students. BA/MWC/Mustang all fought it out for the wrestling and Jazz Band state titles for 20 years....and MWC was the smallest. And like I said before, that's why they have other levels of play at those schools. Not every kid is going to get a scholarship to play sports in college....in fact MOST won't. And MOST people that play in college DON'T go pro. So i'd rather focus on the academic opportunities and prepare them for the real world rather than the "possible, but not probable" one.

[Swake2]

My daughter is a Freshman at Jenks and football is far from the main driver at the school. Hell, it’s not even the schools most successful sport. Jenks is much more dominant in swimming than they are in football. And they have a really nice huge new indoor pool under construction, before the football stadium sees improvements.

Despite appearances sports aren’t the main thing at Jenks, not even close. Jenks year after year has far more National Merit Scholars than any other public non-magnet school in Oklahoma. Jenks Public Schools in 2005 was the first school system in the nation to receive the Malcolm Baldridge Award. Jenks is not for everyone, it is a really big school but that does allow them to do a lot of really cool things. Jenks offers every class available through the AP program. Jenks has classes in everything from Chinese to Astronomy and Ornithology. Jenks bumps all mainstream students up a year in math so they take Geometry as Freshmen. Advanced students take Algebra II or even Pre-Calculus as Freshman. They even offer math classes beyond AP Calc II in Number Theory and Differential Equations. Jenks is building a new Math and Science building that will have its own Planetarium. Sports are a way that the school builds a feeling of pride in the students, but success is more about the classroom than sports. Jenks has so many organizations and clubs for kids to be part of and leaders in that it’s actually hard for kids to not try to be involved in too much.

The idea that there are athletes that have college potential that are missed in the big schools is silly. Even on the football team only a handful of players from Jenks go on to play college ball. Most by far play their last organized football game in high school. If you are good enough to get a college scholarship in a sport, you certainly are going to have the opportunity to play. If anything, a player is more likely to be noticed by college scouts at Jenks than at other schools. Jenks certainly is going to do more to ready a player in most any sport for college level sports than other schools. If anything a kid with talent is probably far more likely to get a scholarship out of Jenks than other places.