Chisholm Creek

[G.Walker]

http://chisholmcreek.com
http://twitter.com/ChisholmCreek
http://facebook.com/ChisholmCreek

[G.Walker]

Just thought this deserved its own thread?

[traxx]

Like this title better than Retail Esplosion (said in my best Ricky Ricardo voice).

[Pete]

Yes, been meaning to start one.

I'll migrate over a lot of the content from other threads.

[NWOKCGuy]

Wouldn't it be easier just to change the name of the other thread?

[zookeeper]

Cabela's confirms store in northwest OKC | News OK
Cabela's seeks $3.5 million tax rebates for Oklahoma City store | News OK

"Outdoor wildlife retailer Cabela’s confirmed Wednesday it will open a store in Oklahoma City in the new Chisholm Creek shopping center being developed at the Kilpatrick Turnpike and Western Avenue."

"The store, at 80,000 square feet, is smaller than the 90,000 to 98,000 square feet indicated in an application to the city for a $3.5 million incentives package yet to be approved by the Oklahoma City Council."

"A spokesman for the chain Wednesday declined to comment on whether the store would be built only if the incentives package is approved by the city."



Wait a minute. Three and a half million dollars of taxpayer money to subsidize another retail store's expansion? This has to stop...somewhere. Handing millions in tax rebates back to out-of-state retailers while we collect and keep all of our local stores tax money is just wrong. I don't care what the benefits will be, city government is not about financing private business and the this whole model is getting out-of-control.

Those who support this kind of thing will call my thinking "short sighted." The bottom line is simple - municipal government is not a bank for private business. All in the land of "free enterprise" nonetheless.

[jn1780]

Wouldn't it be easier just to change the name of the other thread?

That thread is really talking about the whole Memorial road corridor.

[SoonerDave]

Cabela's confirms store in northwest OKC | News OK
Cabela's seeks $3.5 million tax rebates for Oklahoma City store | News OK

"Outdoor wildlife retailer Cabela’s confirmed Wednesday it will open a store in Oklahoma City in the new Chisholm Creek shopping center being developed at the Kilpatrick Turnpike and Western Avenue."

"The store, at 80,000 square feet, is smaller than the 90,000 to 98,000 square feet indicated in an application to the city for a $3.5 million incentives package yet to be approved by the Oklahoma City Council."

"A spokesman for the chain Wednesday declined to comment on whether the store would be built only if the incentives package is approved by the city."



Wait a minute. Three and a half million dollars of taxpayer money to subsidize another retail store's expansion? This has to stop...somewhere. Handing millions in tax rebates back to out-of-state retailers while we collect and keep all of our local stores tax money is just wrong. I don't care what the benefits will be, city government is not about financing private business and the this whole model is getting out-of-control.

Those who support this kind of thing will call my thinking "short sighted." The bottom line is simple - municipal government is not a bank for private business. All in the land of "free enterprise" nonetheless.

How is the city serving as a bank? They're being asked for a one-time $3.5 million incentive package. Possibly, just possibly, the city realizes the potential long-term benefit of substantive recurring sales tax revenues, potential economic benefit to the tune of several million dollars in construction materials and labor, to say nothing of the value of potentially long-term employment in the staffing of the company...at essentially zero risk to the city...I'm not getting the bank analogy at all. It's not like they're holding a note or something.

Mind you, I'm not always crazy about incentives or the government getting too deep into the private sector, but if the due diligence reveals this to be a good investment for the city, why wouldn't we do it? I don't know nearly enough about the details of this particular incentive request to make much of a comment on it specifically one way or the other, but I have to believe both sides see merit in it or it wouldn't have been suggested.

[gopokes88]

Cabela's confirms store in northwest OKC | News OK
Cabela's seeks $3.5 million tax rebates for Oklahoma City store | News OK

"Outdoor wildlife retailer Cabela’s confirmed Wednesday it will open a store in Oklahoma City in the new Chisholm Creek shopping center being developed at the Kilpatrick Turnpike and Western Avenue."

"The store, at 80,000 square feet, is smaller than the 90,000 to 98,000 square feet indicated in an application to the city for a $3.5 million incentives package yet to be approved by the Oklahoma City Council."

"A spokesman for the chain Wednesday declined to comment on whether the store would be built only if the incentives package is approved by the city."



Wait a minute. Three and a half million dollars of taxpayer money to subsidize another retail store's expansion? This has to stop...somewhere. Handing millions in tax rebates back to out-of-state retailers while we collect and keep all of our local stores tax money is just wrong. I don't care what the benefits will be, city government is not about financing private business and the this whole model is getting out-of-control.

Those who support this kind of thing will call my thinking "short sighted." The bottom line is simple - municipal government is not a bank for private business. All in the land of "free enterprise" nonetheless.

"next generation" Cabela's stores - which range between 80,000 and 100,000 square feet - topped $500 per square foot in sales in 2012, he said. Analysis: Cabela's building on gun sale gains by leveraging data | Reuters

80,000*$500=$40,000,000*8.75%=$3,500,000.

I think OKC will be just fine if they give up one years of sales tax receipts from this store. It's not like they're going to be here for the next 20-40 years or something.

[jn1780]

Cabela is the anchor for the entire Chisholm Creek Development. The city will definitely approve the incenitive.

[zookeeper]

I think OKC will be just fine if they give up one years of sales tax receipts from this store. It's not like they're going to be here for the next 20-40 years or something.

And, likewise, I think Cabela's would do just fine without a $3.5 million dollar rebate.

Look, I know I'm outgunned on this. "If it help's OKC in the long-run, the short-term incentives are worth it." We could extrapolate that into so many other things - business, sports, human development, health care. There are many things we could fund that would help us in the long-run, unfortunately the only things worth funding are the things that come back monetarily. Things that need to be done in this city that we don't see money coming back - is what municipal government is for! If you all think these things are worth the giveaways - then do it right - pass a funding bill and pay for it.

Two philosophies. Interestingly, mine is probably called "liberal" and the corporate welfare supporters are called "conservative." The world is upside down.

[jn1780]

Two philosophies. Interestingly, mine is probably called "liberal" and the corporate welfare supporters are called "conservative." The world is upside down.

Or called capitalism, As soon as you get all the other cities that want a Cabela's to join your cause, OKC will join your cause.

[SoonerDave]

And, likewise, I think Cabela's would do just fine without a $3.5 million dollar rebate.

Look, I know I'm outgunned on this. "If it help's OKC in the long-run, the short-term incentives are worth it." We could extrapolate that into so many other things - business, sports, human development, health care. There are many things we could fund that would help us in the long-run, unfortunately the only things worth funding are the things that come back monetarily. Things that need to be done in this city that we don't see money coming back - is what municipal government is for! If you all think these things are worth the giveaways - then do it right - pass a funding bill and pay for it.

Two philosophies. Interestingly, mine is probably called "liberal" and the corporate welfare supporters are called "conservative." The world is upside down.

zoo, you might be able to engage me in a discussion about the relative merits and downsides of these kinds of arrangements, but when you start tossing out the ad-hominem rhetoric of "corporate welfare" you just lose me, because your side holds the position of "absolutley never, absolutely wrong, absolutley immoral, never, never, never!!!", and I simply can't operate in that kind of vacuum. You're certainly entitled to your opinion and position, but just can't agree with you.

[Pete]

Keep in mind, the City has a dedicated fund exactly for this purpose: to bring in new businesses that will generate substantial revenue.

Cabela's is merely applying for money that has already been set aside.

[zookeeper]

Keep in mind, the City has a dedicated fund exactly for this purpose: to bring in new businesses that will generate substantial revenue.

Cabela's is merely applying for money that has already been set aside.

That used to be called a slush fund. Graft. The whole thing is ripe for corruption. "We'll come to your city IF....." Blackmail. But, it's done so often now we accept it.

[gopokes88]

And, likewise, I think Cabela's would do just fine without a $3.5 million dollar rebate.

Look, I know I'm outgunned on this. "If it help's OKC in the long-run, the short-term incentives are worth it." We could extrapolate that into so many other things - business, sports, human development, health care. There are many things we could fund that would help us in the long-run, unfortunately the only things worth funding are the things that come back monetarily. Things that need to be done in this city that we don't see money coming back - is what municipal government is for! If you all think these things are worth the giveaways - then do it right - pass a funding bill and pay for it.

Two philosophies. Interestingly, mine is probably called "liberal" and the corporate welfare supporters are called "conservative." The world is upside down.

You know Seattle took that hard line stance with Clay Bennet about the Sonics....that worked well.

Incentives for companies is done on the far left as well. So don't you dare try to paint it as a conservative thing. It might be one of the few bipartisan things in the country. Tesla was supposed to manufacture all of it's cars in ABQ. California wasn't even in the running. They ponied up some major incentives/bribes/slush fund whatever you want to call it and stole it. Now California is fixing to do the exact same thing again with the Gigafactory.

Facts. They really suck when you make things political.

Tesla Motors backs out of NM deal - Albuquerque Business First

"The news follows by a week the California Alternative Energy and Advanced Transportation Financing Authority's program to encourage the manufacture of zero-emission vehicles, which will provide Tesla with $100 million in tax-free financing for manufacturing equipment. Tesla also will be eligible for at least $1 million in Employment Training Panel Workforce Development Funds through the program"

I can hear it now. Oh but that's green energy we should totally incentive that because it fits my world view.

[zookeeper]

GoPokes88, No...you won't hear that from me. I think government meddling in private business is a disaster and a recipe for corruption and bad government. Maybe not in the short-term, but so many times it catches up. I didn't support the GM bailout, I didn't support the Wall Street bailout, I don't support "green initiatives" if it's going to private business. My worldview is really not not black and white. I live in the greys of the political spectrum. I'm an independent thinker and no party would have me!

You can't deny though, that in the case of our particular city, it IS the conservatives who lead the way on corporate handouts. It is what it is.

Many cities have counted themselves out of the "cash to play" style of governance. Private development agencies have been formed to help with anything that TRULY needs assistance in re-location, etc.

I may be passionate, GoPokes, but I am not stupid. I am NOT a black/white hypocritical type of thinker.

[gopokes88]

GoPokes88, No...you won't hear that from me. I think government meddling in private business is a disaster and a recipe for corruption and bad government. Maybe not in the short-term, but so many times it catches up. I didn't support the GM bailout, I didn't support the Wall Street bailout, I don't support "green initiatives" if it's going to private business. My worldview is really not not black and white. I live in the greys of the political spectrum. I'm an independent thinker and no party would have me!

You can't deny though, that in the case of our particular city, it IS the conservatives who lead the way on corporate handouts. It is what it is.

Many cities have counted themselves out of the "cash to play" style of governance. Private development agencies have been formed to help with anything that TRULY needs assistance in re-location, etc.

I may be passionate, GoPokes, but I am not stupid. I am NOT a black/white hypocritical type of thinker.

But see you do kinda do live in the black/white.

I'll take the bailout you mentioned. You say you don't support it? Do you understand if we don't bail out the banks they collapse, and nearly every dollar in the US system evaporates in 24hours. It would be the Great Depression but 100X faster and more painful. Nobody really supported it, hell even Wall Street didn't really want that money. However, a grey person realizes the way the world works and works inside of it. Living in the greys of politics means a particular set of ideology will be wrong and right at the same time. It's wrong to bail out banks but it is necessary and therefore the right thing to do.

It may be wrong to hand out incentives (investments is really what they are, front money and get a return on the backside) but it is the way the world works and railing against isn't going to do much.

No you suggested that conservatives love corporate welfare. That's simply not true. Liberals love love love it on anything green energy. You tried to make it a slam conservatives thing and it backfired. I don't know how conservative the city leaders even are. I think that are pretty pragmatic and are open to any idea that makes the city better. MAPS sure as hell isn't rooted in conservative ideology.

Government by nature will always be corrupt because men are easily corruptible. The trick is to find the Goldilocks zone of government. Not too little, not too much.

[zookeeper]

But see you do kinda do live in the black/white.

I'll take the bailout you mentioned. You say you don't support it? Do you understand if we don't bail out the banks they collapse, and nearly every dollar in the US system evaporates in 24hours. It would be the Great Depression but 100X faster and more painful. Nobody really supported it, hell even Wall Street didn't really want that money. However, a grey person realizes the way the world works and works inside of it. Living in the greys of politics means a particular set of ideology will be wrong and right at the same time. It's wrong to bail out banks but it is necessary and therefore the right thing to do.

It may be wrong to hand out incentives (investments is really what they are, front money and get a return on the backside) but it is the way the world works and railing against isn't going to do much.

No you suggested that conservatives love corporate welfare. That's simply not true. Liberals love love love it on anything green energy. You tried to make it a slam conservatives thing and it backfired. I don't know how conservative the city leaders even are. I think that are pretty pragmatic and are open to any idea that makes the city better. MAPS sure as hell isn't rooted in conservative ideology.

Government by nature will always be corrupt because men are easily corruptible. The trick is to find the Goldilocks zone of government. Not too little, not too much.

So much I could say here. But, this is the Chisholm Creek thread.

I'll leave it at this and then we can discuss it in 'Politics.' Many seem to saying it's not a good thing, but it is just how the game is played. I've always believed Edmund Burke:
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." I may not win popularity contests for my views, (because I offend all sides equally and people tend to only remember when you disagree with them), but nobody will ever accuse me of doing nothing.

[Rover]

That used to be called a slush fund. Graft. The whole thing is ripe for corruption. "We'll come to your city IF....." Blackmail. But, it's done so often now we accept it.

If you are being literal, you need to look up the definitions of slush fund and graft. Neither applies to this situation, nor does blackmail. Incentives are legitimate and used for many positive things.

[zookeeper]

If you are being literal, you need to look up the definitions of slush fund and graft. Neither applies to this situation, nor does blackmail. Incentives are legitimate and used for many positive things.

No, not in the absolute literal sense, no. But do you not see the open doors to corruption? A lot of what Huey Long did in Louisiana was legal, but he made sure damn near everything was a benefit to him and his cronies. Who you do/don't give incentives to can be determined through backroom deals and corruption. How much you give - who's to say some of that isn't skimmed off the top and given to the person who "made it happen?" So while it doesn't work like a slush fund in the literal sense, it certainly could in practice. I just don't think it's the purpose of municipal governments. The fact is, Cabela's doesn't need the $3.5 million dollars if they're doing as well as everyone says. But we'll never know if they'd come here without the kickback of taxes will we?

Appropriate thread to discuss Cabela's and the incentives package, complete with a new post from me. Damn him! Won't he just go away?
http://www.okctalk.com/showwiki.php?...e=2#post794660

[Spartan]

It's amazing that the largest city in the state gives permits to gun ranges that serve alcohol and seems to reserve its biggest retail subsidies for businesses that sell hunting, fishing, and other outdoors gear.

I remember when we had ULI in town a few years ago and learned that getting a Saks or Nordstroms etc would require $10-20 million in subsidies. All of the urbanists and otherwise normal people who wanted those retailers on the boulevard let go of the idea because that's an insane amount of money when there are more pressing concerns. Well now we will have given out close to that much to "attract" (ie beat Tulsa by a few months) a Bass Pro and Cabela's.

Way to go us.

[Plutonic Panda]

But see you do kinda do live in the black/white.

I'll take the bailout you mentioned. You say you don't support it? Do you understand if we don't bail out the banks they collapse, and nearly every dollar in the US system evaporates in 24hours. It would be the Great Depression but 100X faster and more painful. Nobody really supported it, hell even Wall Street didn't really want that money. However, a grey person realizes the way the world works and works inside of it. Living in the greys of politics means a particular set of ideology will be wrong and right at the same time. It's wrong to bail out banks but it is necessary and therefore the right thing to do.

It may be wrong to hand out incentives (investments is really what they are, front money and get a return on the backside) but it is the way the world works and railing against isn't going to do much.

No you suggested that conservatives love corporate welfare. That's simply not true. Liberals love love love it on anything green energy. You tried to make it a slam conservatives thing and it backfired. I don't know how conservative the city leaders even are. I think that are pretty pragmatic and are open to any idea that makes the city better. MAPS sure as hell isn't rooted in conservative ideology.

Government by nature will always be corrupt because men are easily corruptible. The trick is to find the Goldilocks zone of government. Not too little, not too much.

+1

[Plutonic Panda]

Just FYI, they posted this https://www.facebook.com/ChisholmCre...560731/?type=1 asking people what tenants you would to see. So if you have a Facebook account, tell all!

[Plutonic Panda]

New Development Could Cause Traffic Tie-Ups In NW OKC - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |

If you watch the video, they use the exact term "retail explosion" that Pete first used back in October.