Tulsans simply don't get it

[swake]

The arts festival is a good event, no doubt. It's a somewhat larger version of Tulsa's Mayfest. An example of "upping" attendance figures would be Mayfest, they used to include all 40,000 people that work downtown in the numbers, THREE TIMES, once for Wednesday, Thursday and then Friday. So they had a starting figure of 120,000 people, so Mayfest claimed 400,000 to 500,000 people. Now they claim a somewhat more reasonable 250,000 but all these non ticketed arts fairs and such, and there are a ton of them nationally, have no way to tell how many people attend them.

Unless you sell tickets, you are just guessing. Okoberfest in Tulsa is a great example, they used to claim as many as 300,000 people attended each year, last year they started requiring tickets, not expensive ones, just like two or three dollars. The crowds aren't any smaller since, but attendance is now put at about 100,000, and that would be the real number, and probably always was.

Now the Tulsa State Fair had just a shade under 1 million tickets sold. I do think that is still the largest single event in the state.

And if you think Bricktown is the same as the whole of downtown OKC, then you are kidding yourself, it is one section, not a major section and it's off to the side of downtown. The CBD is more what I was talking about. It's really no different than Tulsa's CBD, really it's in worse shape.

And even there in Bricktown there are plenty of empty or underused buildings. Most buildings in the area have the ground floor retail fronts mostly full with bars and resturants, but the bulk of the often five or six floor buildings are still empty. Is it thriving? I think that's debatable, it's a popular tourist and nightlife area, but almost no one lives there and there is very little retail or office space. It is not what many cities are striving for in districts like that to consider them a success, it is in no way Multi-Use. you have a very successful and popular district in Bricktown, I would say it's thriving for what it is, but it could be a lot more. I know OKC is working on the residental part, but a lot more needs to be done, and get rid of the chains and get more unique eateries. Then you really would have something. Oh, and level the outer part of Bricktown, it's just worthless, no better, well, not a lot better than 71st in Tulsa.

I want OKC to do well, it's great you have the Hornets, I think you are going to get to keep them, keep the attendance numbers up next year at full ticket prices and you will. There are many good areas of OKC, for instance, the Lake Hefner area is very nice and seems to be better every time I'm there. I think the single most exciting project in the whole state is the Skirvin. I hope Tulsa can/will copy it with the Mayo. I have complimented your new museums and have even said that Tulsa needs something like the MOA.

Why do people in OKC have to act like there is nothing at all in Tulsa? Why does the state keep funding projects in OKC without complimentary projects in Tulsa? We too pay state taxes. The trend here seems to be to make much more of OKC than is really there, and much less of Tulsa.

[BDP]

Why do people in OKC have to act like there is nothing at all in Tulsa?

I'm not sure that anyone is really saying that. I think most seem to repeatedly express their appreciation of Tulsa and what it offers. But maybe if I was on the other side, I wouldn't see it like that. I don't know, but I certainly read a lot of posts from people that explicitly say they like Tulsa and I doubt that's because they think there's nothing there at all.

Why does the state keep funding projects in OKC without complimentary projects in Tulsa?

I'm not sure. You'd probably have to break that one down specifically. I do know that just because one city fills a need with tax payer money doesn't mean that the other city should get the same amount of money just to be "fair". I think that would create a lot of waste. Maybe the Tulsa representatives are not as effective in expressing Tulsa's needs. Are there any specific projects that you see as especially unfair?

In the end, one could say that the larger tax base justifies it, but, personally, I think it should be based on needs and return on investment.

The trend here seems to be to make much more of OKC than is really there, and much less of Tulsa.

Again, I don't think anyone makes less of Tulsa than it is really. It's a nice place and most seem to acknowledge that. Maybe some downplay what it does have, but that’s pretty much been your mission in terms of OKC, so you probably understand that better than me.

As for OKC, I think you have a point. I think a lot of that stems from the tendency to talk about what is coming. OKC does have a lot of momentum and a lot of projects in the pipeline, both private and public. As these projects are not finished, yet, a lot of the discussion is, by nature, talking about things that are not here yet.

[okcpulse]

Now the Tulsa State Fair had just a shade under 1 million tickets sold. I do think that is still the largest single event in the state.

The Oklahoma State Fair sold 1.1 million tickets last year, and is a 10 day event. It used to be 17 days and drew 1.7 million a year. I think the Tulsa and Oklahoma State Fairs are pretty much the same in terms of attendance.

But I hate fairs. They are a has been for me. After all, who wants to ride portable rides inspected by underpaid employees and getting ripped off by vendors at the midway? The fair, any fair, is crap.

But remember swake, downtown OKC is now what it wasn't then. It is well-maintained now, and with specialized districts, (Bricktown; Arts District; Central Business District; Automobile Alley; Flat Iron District; and Deep Deuce), downtown has an identity. Each district now has a mission, and so does Midtown and the Capitol District.

The parking garage you mentioned does not belong in Deep Deuce. What you saw was in the Flat Iron District, and is actually being renovated for a reopening. The Flat Iron district is the centerpiece for the new Town Square project, a combination of residential and retail. Correct, vacancy rates are high, and I exlpained that, but they are also falling steadily, and parking downtown is becoming a problem.

In fact, the Galleria Parking Garage is nearing completion on two five-story garages. The new Downtown Library and new Metro Transit Transfer Station and the renovated Civic Center Music Hall ahve enhanced downtown. The Colcord, Oklahoma City's first skyscraper built in 1910 (at 11 floors), is being renovated into a boutique hotel. The Montgomery in the Arts District is a recently completed project that features luxury corporate apartments, and are a success. Of course, you know about the Skirvin Project. I remember reading on Tulsa Now that the Skirvin project would never happen, and that the Tulsa Mayo would be fully open before the Skirvin was ever started. Automobile Alley is filling up with businesses. All of this is happening in downtown, not Bricktown.

So maybe it's better to say, all of the assets are in place for a thriving downtown, and even though we are not there yet, we are heading down the right road.

We both know Tulsa and OKC have different histories with our inner cities. Although, north Tulsa is horrible, as is south-central OKC. But that is every city.

[jbrown84]

If that festival got 750,000 people that would mean every man, woman and child in OKC plus 200,000 would have to attend (and clearly that dosent happen).....Festivals always up the attendance records so the event is more appealing to sponsors. In that photo Karried posted it looks more like 3,000.

OKC metro = 1,200,000 people. Between OKC and the rest of the state it's not that hard to get 750,000 downtown over several days. The festival covers the entire Myriad Gardens and the whole block to the west of it (Festival Plaza) as well as the entire length of Robinson between them. I did a news package on the festival last year and I interviewed several out of state artists and they all said it is the best festival they've been to and they sell more art in OKC than anywhere else. Oh, I guess we aren't a bunch of hick cowboys down here.


Swake, no one's talking down Tulsa. Or maybe one guy is out of all of us. We want Tulsa to thrive, but it doesn't help our state when you guys just try to copy everything we do. We need unique things. OKC has a modern art museum. Let us have modern art, and stop trying to compete so directly with us. We are getting the Native American Cultural Center on the river, and it's going to be incredible. Why build your own. That only serves to make our state and our cities less unique. It's like Clinton and Elk City with their competing Route 66 museums. I think we're above that.

[okcpulse]

On that note in Festival of the Arts attendance, a lot are not from Oklahoma. Every year I attend the festival, I see countless license plates in parking garages from Texas, Kansas, Missouri, and some from Illinois, California and Colorado. I always see at least a couple of plates from Maine and Massachusetts. Don't know if they were there for the festival, but they were there nonetheless. And I don't think ot was for the Memorial. Any Oklahoma Citian knows they all park by the Memorial. The plates I mentioned were in the Santa Fe Parking Garage and in Bricktown.

[jbrown84]

okcpulse covered it pretty well, but you seem to be making a lot of surface assumptions about downtown OKC. You can't just drive around and know what is going on. Many of the Bricktown warehouses do have lofts and offices in their upper floors. How could you know without going inside them. The other areas around the CBD are all improving. Automobile Alley has several loft apartment buildings, two modern art galleries, several banks, and will soon have the new OKC Foundation Headquarters. Virtually all of Deep Deuce (already containing hundreds of apartments) and the Flatiron District is being filled with housing and mixed use projects (The Hill at Deep Deuce, The Triangle District, Block 42), which will bridge the gap with OU Medical Center and the Biotech district. Midtown is seeing new restaurants and new landscaping and will most likely have new housing with Legacy Summit at Arts Central. Just north of the newly renovated Plaza Court building the old Mid-Continental Life building on the edge of Heritage Hills is being renovated for a new museum. And right in the business district we are about to renovate our underground tunnel system, and it will include a grand entrance probably at the Chase Building. 125 Park is complete with for-sale condo offices on four floors and a restaurant space in the basement with street access. The Federal Reserve building is being considered for the new home of the International Photography Hall of Fame and Museum. We have six buildings that are being converted to housing for different price ranges. And our Santa Fe Amtrak depot is being outfitted to have shops in its old freight docks, and no, that's not in Bricktown.

Some of these may have already been mentioned, but a lot haven't and I think you have to look beyond the outward picture. Even just looking at the outward picture downtown OKC's streets are lined with trees, fountains and statues.

[davido]

Oklahoma city and tulsa are just like OU and ok state, how many times can you win a championship and still not get credit from the other guy. I have been all over this state, and there will always be a rivalry between okc and tulsa and ou osu. tulsa is a pretty, wooded city, and okc is flat and has different things than tulsa, they are both good cities.

[swake]

Of course, you know about the Skirvin Project. I remember reading on Tulsa Now that the Skirvin project would never happen, and that the Tulsa Mayo would be fully open before the Skirvin was ever started.

That feeling was due to at least two failures to reopen that Mayo that died after construction started. I do think the Skirvin will happen, but understand, the Mayo today is far more restored than the Skirvin is. That's why the Mayo is gutted, stable, and now redone on the first two floors only. I hope that doesn't happen to the Skirvin, but it might, it did to the Mayo, again, more than once.

Every year I attend the festival, I see countless license plates in parking garages from Texas, Kansas, Missouri, and some from Illinois, California and Colorado. I always see at least a couple of plates from Maine and Massachusetts. Don't know if they were there for the festival,

Most likely they were there for the festival, as artist and vendors. Those people travel city to city hitting a lot of arts shows and fairs. That's what they do. That's not knocking your festival, but few people are going to travel very far for something like that, most cities have at least one version of it.

Swake, no one's talking down Tulsa. Or maybe one guy is out of all of us. We want Tulsa to thrive, but it doesn't help our state when you guys just try to copy everything we do. We need unique things. OKC has a modern art museum. Let us have modern art, and stop trying to compete so directly with us. We are getting the Native American Cultural Center on the river, and it's going to be incredible. Why build your own. That only serves to make our state and our cities less unique. It's like Clinton and Elk City with their competing Route 66 museums. I think we're above that.

I don’t think Tulsa is copying OKC at all.

First off, every city needs a modern art museum, and the art should be as local as possible as often as possible. It is the art of "today", so I don't think that is a copy, that is just part of a good local arts community.

And does Tulsa need a Native American center? Even if OKC has one? Certainly. Tulsa has the highest per-capita population of Native Americans of any city, and is second to only Los Angeles in pure numbers. And Tulsa’s number is even likely badly unreported on the census, you only have to look at license plates around town to know that. I have heard that some claim that something maybe as many as 15%, or more, of the people in metro Tulsa are enrolled in a tribe. The Tulsa metro is home to the largest and third largest tribes in the nation. Tulsa Public schools has children from something like 50 different tribes. Tulsa was founded by Native Americans, how many large cities can really say that? Tulsa really probably is the single most important center in Native Culture nationally, because of the size and variety of the Native American community in Tulsa. But most people even in Tulsa don’t know that unless they participate in the community here. If for no other reason, one is needed here because of that. Why do you think the National Congress of Indians was held here last month for instance?

Anyway, the center in Tulsa is planning to have a stomp grounds, pow-wow grounds, native foods restaurants, community center, and a museum. Not as purely a museum as what OKC seems to be building, so I’m not sure it’s really the same thing anyway.

In any case, Tulsa already has very good native museum collections. Both of Tulsa’s major museums already have very impressive Native American museum collections not to mention the tribal capitals in the area all also have tribal specific museums. Hell, the Cherokee Casino is filled with really nice Cherokee artwork, it’s nearly a museum all on it’s own. Thomas Gilcrease was a Creek Indian! You know, the man that donated the estate and bulk of the art that today is Gilcrease Museum.

Tulsa having such a center is not a copy.

I don’t think Tulsa is copying OKC on the river, Tulsa has been developing the river for more than 30 years, we are just in a new phase of development. An arena? Well, Tulsa’s old arena is far worse that the old Myriad, and a lot smaller, it was needed, and what we are building is nothing like what you built. Downtown housing? Tulsa has been promoting downtown housing for at least 30 years, that’s why we do have 1500 units downtown, it’s just they are concentrated mostly in one area. Copying Bricktown? Well, Tulsa’s closest area like Bricktown would have to be Brookside, and Brookside has been a nightlife district here since it was known as the restless ribbon in the 50s.

What exactly are we imitating?

[metro]

Anyway, the center in Tulsa is planning to have a stomp grounds, pow-wow grounds, native foods restaurants, community center, and a museum. Not as purely a museum as what OKC seems to be building, so I’m not sure it’s really the same thing anyway.

Actually ours will have all this and a lot more, it should be a good contrast yet compliment to the one in Tulsa. It will even be affilliated with the Smithsonian.

A master plan and conceptual design has been completed by an exceptional team of architects, designers, and museum and exhibit specialists. The plan includes many aspects reflecting American Indian culture and traditions, such as water, wind, fire and earth; sun cycles, and gathering places for social and sports events.

Phases I and II are now complete. Phase I involved the overall feasibility study and site selection. Phase II involved the Program Brief with Building Concepts and Master Plan. Phase III, currently underway, includes content and story line development and exhibit planning by Ralph Appelbaum Associates of New York, widely known for their exhibitory work for the Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC. Phase III also includes landscape planning and design by Hargreaves Associates of San Francisco, CA.

Visitors to the Cultural Center will enter from the east, through the “Court of the Wind,” a circular plaza surrounded by 39 tree-like pipes that resonate the sound of the wind. From there, visitors will approach the main entrance to the Museum, where they will view the Fire Circle of the Court of Nations through the glass walls in the Hall of the People. In this area, visitors can choose to proceed into several galleries or theaters to experience projected images, sound and light effects. There will also be an introduction to orient visitors to the cultural history and significance of Oklahoma American Indian tribes. Themes throughout the Center will be Identity, Memory, Community, Ethos, Continuity, and Ethos.

Other options for visitors will be the Family Center, featuring hands-on activities such as storytelling, quilting and beadwork crafts; and the Study Center where visitors can learn more about the exhibits and activities offered throughout the Museum.

The outdoor design plan for the Cultural Center includes woodland, plain and wetlands settings, as well as a lake extending the entire length of the site. Landscaping will include trees and plants native to the area. Lakeside facilities, including a 200-room lodge hotel, tribal meeting and conference center, and a 125-room motor hotel, will provide meeting space for a variety of organizations.

An arts and crafts marketplace, studios and galleries, providing a venue for American Indian art, will be located near the hotels. Restaurants will also be located in this area.

A large dance ground is planned for social gatherings, including a 300-space RV and tent campground with areas for food preparation. There will also be a sports field for tournaments, inter-tribal games and casual recreation.

The American Indian Cultural Center and Museum will provide an opportunity to educate, celebrate and preserve the history, culture and achievements of American Indians.

For more info you may want to visit http://mynacea.com

[roboticbrad]

Actually ours will have all this and a lot more, it should be a good contrast yet compliment to the one in Tulsa. It will even be affilliated with the Smithsonian.



For more info you may want to visit mynacea

the link didnt work

[HOT ROD]

Why does the state keep funding projects in OKC without complimentary projects in Tulsa? We too pay state taxes..

Because OKC is the capital and largest city. ... The same reason why Denver, Boston, Atlanta, Richmond, Phoenix ... need I go on? Have more state buildings and investments. And the mentioned cities (and OKC) also happen to be the respective state's largest.

Its' not a poke at Tulsa or any state's second or third city. Here is a great example. Out here in Washington state, Seattle is by far the biggest and most progressive city - nearly world class with huge national prominence (everyone knows that). But Seattle has almost NO state buildings or investment. Why???

Because the capital is in Olympia (which has most of the state buildings). Seattle was not the capital, nor was Tacoma, or Spokane ... so the three have less than Olympia does, state wise. Sure, they contribute FAR MORE in income to the state than Olympia's 120,000 residents - but Olympia is the capital..

So, the cities had to find something else to prosper and surely Tulsa did the same thing. Isnt that why Tulsa has more industrial presence than does OKC? Ditto that for Wichita KS, most state institutions are 120 miles NE.

I dont think this is anything to cry about, I mean, OKC is the state capital. It is also the largest city, so it only makes sense for most of the buildings and investment to be based in OKC.

The trend here seems to be to make much more of OKC than is really there, and much less of Tulsa.

Not really. As an "outsider" I actually see OKCers comment very favourably for Tulsa, even during a defensive post. I think Tulsan's seem to want OKC to rant and rave over T-town and neglect their own; isnt that what had been happening pre MAPS?

Well, it's a new day and a new OKC.

One thing I will agree with you is that I dont think OKC needed to annex 600 sq miles. The original argument was for water shed protection. Hopefully with the creation of Central Oklahoma Association of Governments they can manage the watershed (like we have out here, King County METRO) and we can put the whole "density" issue to rest.

Why do people in OKC have to act like there is nothing at all in Tulsa?

I disagree here. People in OKC are just taking pride in OKC. I mean, it is OKCTalk. Sure, there are some who take a poke or two at Tulsa but I think it is more of a fun stab rather than the continual put down that Tulsa liked to give OKC back in the day (or that many continue to do on TulsaNow).

so...

why cant we all get along? I know every state has rivalries and in-state there are also. But it seems that OKC and Tulsa should pool together and change the world's opinion about Oklahoma. I see OKC taking the initiative, what I've seen from Tulsa is only in Tulsa's best interest or only about Tulsa.

SWAKE, I can say that you have been one of the most objective (and more civilized) True Tulsans in your criticisms of OKC. I have taken most of yours to be rather constructive and that you actually might like to see OKC progress. I wish there were others like you in your fine city over there.

Well, at least it isnt Kansas (or Arkansas, even worse).

Cheer (and team) up Oklahoma!!!

[swake]

Actually ours will have all this and a lot more, it should be a good contrast yet compliment to the one in Tulsa. It will even be affilliated with the Smithsonian.



For more info you may want to visit http://mynacea.com

No, I agree, what you are planning is impressive, much more so than what is planned here, the link to the smithsonian is key as well, the plan for Tulsa's center is not even close to what you are planning in size and is much further from being done.

[metro]

Here try this link. The other link worked for me but not sure what happened.

http://nacea.com/

[soonerguru]

No offense to the Tulsans here, but why is Tulsa building a "me too" Indian museum? That seems very bizarre. I thought Tulsans were the "trailblazers" for our fair state. Could they not conceive of a different project?

[swake]

No offense to the Tulsans here, but why is Tulsa building a "me too" Indian museum? That seems very bizarre. I thought Tulsans were the "trailblazers" for our fair state. Could they not conceive of a different project?

You could start by reading my entire post on that exact subject..........The one six posts above this one in this very thread, but that might take effort, so here it is

And does Tulsa need a Native American center? Even if OKC has one? Certainly. Tulsa has the highest per-capita population of Native Americans of any city, and is second to only Los Angeles in pure numbers. And Tulsa’s number is even likely badly unreported on the census, you only have to look at license plates around town to know that. I have heard that some claim that something maybe as many as 15%, or more, of the people in metro Tulsa are enrolled in a tribe. The Tulsa metro is home to the largest and third largest tribes in the nation. Tulsa Public schools has children from something like 50 different tribes. Tulsa was founded by Native Americans, how many large cities can really say that? Tulsa really probably is the single most important center in Native Culture nationally, because of the size and variety of the Native American community in Tulsa. But most people even in Tulsa don’t know that unless they participate in the community here. If for no other reason, one is needed here because of that. Why do you think the National Congress of Indians was held here last month for instance?

[brianinok]

And does Tulsa need a Native American center? Even if OKC has one? Certainly. Tulsa has the highest per-capita population of Native Americans of any city, and is second to only Los Angeles in pure numbers.

Using this logic, Texas should build a National Cowboy and Western Heritage Museum. Maybe California and Arizona should, too. And maybe 2 new College Football HOFs should be located in Norman, OK and Tuscaloosa, AL, considering schools in those cities have so many national titles. And while we're at it, lets go ahead and build a Route 66 museum in every town in OK along old Route 66. That's show Clinton.

And while we're at it, we need to get over to the NYC boards and tell them they should be jealous that DC has all the government buildings. After all, who care that they are the national capital-- NYC is best city in the country!

[Curt]

NYC is best city in the country!

Your kidding...right? I really hope your kidding. I have never been to NYC...but from the people I have known that have been there and listening to what they had to say about it there is no way in hell I would ever want to go there.

[TStheThird]

Well, that puts you in the world's minority, but that is the great thing about the world... everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

[soonerguru]

I have never been to NYC

That much is obvious from your, pardon the expression, ignorant commentary. Yes, NYC really is the best city, and it's not even close.

Of course, there are many, many GREAT cities that have a lot of different things to offer.

But if you ever get the chance to actually visit NYC and experience it for yourself, take it. It's on a level you cannot understand from watching Seinfeld or NYPD Blue or hearing your friends Kvetch about it.

[BDP]

NYC rocks. I love that city. My first love will always be San Francisco. It's prettier, imo. But I sure wouldn't turn down any opportunity to go to NYC. What's not to like? That is, unless you don't like people, which I guess there are a lot of people who don't like people.

PS: I wonder will this thread will be next week... the suspense is killing me.

[Oil Capital]

I have lived in Tulsa for 9 + years now and if I had to describe it with one word that word would be:

Delusional

(and no I am neither a native nor partisan of OKC, I am not even from Oklahoma)

[TStheThird]

This is most certainly an exciting and entertaining thread!

[jdsplaypin]

Mariner, just because your friend "John Doe" didn't get along with the big bad city doesn't mean it isn't the greatest city in the country. Besides LA (urban sprawl at its finest) there are no other GLOBAL CITIES besides NYC. Perhaps you had Detroit in mind... hehe. Come on where else on earth can you find another 5th Avenue besides the one exception in Dubai. And no, Las Vegas doesn't compare. Where else can you find the exquisite architecture. And no, the super sonic space needle in Seattle isnt what i had in mind. How about Grand Central, The subway system, Times square, Midtown, the Financial District, Little Italy (yes i've been to other Italian districts) The museums, BROADWAY, the Diamond District, the Garment District, the restaurants. Do you think the United Nations mistakenly made NYC their home? They could've easily located on the other side of the Atlantic & been closer to more countries involved in the UN. The major corporations located here b/c of the appeal and cosmopolitan diversity of the metropolis.

[flyingcowz]

Suprised that I have not said anything?
Good, you should be.

Anyways, i'm not going to jump in and start an argument, because i'm better than that, and you all know what i'd have to say anyways.

I'd just like to say, though, that I liked Chicago and San Fransisco a lot more than NYC.

I'm out, so you can get back to your bashing.

[Karried]

Suprised that I have not said anything?
Good, you should be.

To be honest, I don't think anyone thought about it in the least.