OKC's Outdated Inferiority Complex

[betts]

It's that bad Penny. A significant number of people with cars aren't going to use the system as it is. We can wait and see who's right but I'll bet my mortgage ridership won't improve measurably until we have better routes and covered stops, short gas prices doubling.

[PennyQuilts]

It's that bad Penny. A significant number of people with cars aren't going to use the system as it is. We can wait and see who's right but I'll bet my mortgage ridership won't improve measurably until we have better routes and covered stops, short gas prices doubling.

Well, I think gas prices doubling would definitely have a big effect!

[rcjunkie]

Well, I think gas prices doubling would definitely have a big effect!

Same was said when gas was $2.00 a gallon and nothings changed.

[Spartan]

Actually, you specifically said you were skeptical of his report. Why? As for the eternal optimism, in just about every post, I stated that some routes won't work. I've said don't take them if they are actually not useful. And I've also said that skipping the bus routes because they are inconvenient is just the same old arguments people made to avoid mass trans altogether. Of COURSE they are inconvenient, when compared to personal vehicles. And buses in any successful system are often not the first choice - but they are essential in a big scheme if workable public trans is actually the goal. And one of my points has been that when people simply skip using the buses because they are crappy (notwithstanding reports that, for some, they work), they contribute to the "inferiority complex about OKC that this thread is about. To dismiss Sid's report (which you did, no matter how you deny it), you illustrate and model a closed mindset that so many people have about OKC. It is almost as if you want to believe it.

This thread is about OKC's inferiority complex. I have spoken up about using the bus system. And let me repeat, I really am sorry that people don't use the buses if they want Oklahoma City to progress.

As for the political commentary about uber conservative, blah, blah, that doesn't make a bit of sense. I am advocating people using mass transit. I use it, myself, when it makes sense. I'd like to see OKC improve the bus system and I believe the best way to get that done is for people with influence, credibility, to actually use the buses. It is easy to ignore the system until people with clout speak up and say, hey, I want to use it but it specifically isn't meeting my needs in thus and such a way. Ignoring the system as too inconvenient takes advocates out of the game. And the attitude that OKC can't run a decent bus system when other cities can is part of our problem. You buy it, I don't.

What bus routes have you ever used? In another thread you were railing against the DC metro calling it a pointless transit system (and then talking about all the muggings and shootings in the Georgetown district, which is nicer than anything in Oklahoma). And you want us to believe that you ride the OKC buses? I don't buy it. DC has one of the world's best transit systems easily, OKC has one of the world's worst transit systems, down there with Lima, Peru probably. While I might respectfully be skeptical of Sid's report on the bus system, I am flat out calling this a bluff.

And you think that a bus system can effectively serve all of OKC? There is virtually no urban planning theory that supports the idea that an automobile bus fleet alone can serve an entire city of 560,000 people. It seems more like you're propping up this huge bluff because you suspect that the transit advocates are less interested in a "workable transit system" and more interested in a "model transit system." And you're right. We're more interested in the world-class transit system that the MAPS3 transit component has promised the citizens. That is why the citizens voted for it, and of the big ticket M3 items, it was the one with the most support by far, when many others did not even break even in opinion polls.

So what's wrong with advocating for a world-class transit system instead of a mere bus system? If that's what you take issue with, then address it.

[PennyQuilts]

What bus routes have you ever used? In another thread you were railing against the DC metro calling it a pointless transit system (and then talking about all the muggings and shootings in the Georgetown district, which is nicer than anything in Oklahoma). And you want us to believe that you ride the OKC buses? I don't buy it. DC has one of the world's best transit systems easily, OKC has one of the world's worst transit systems, down there with Lima, Peru probably. While I might respectfully be skeptical of Sid's report on the bus system, I am flat out calling this a bluff.

And you think that a bus system can effectively serve all of OKC? There is virtually no urban planning theory that supports the idea that an automobile bus fleet alone can serve an entire city of 560,000 people. It seems more like you're propping up this huge bluff because you suspect that the transit advocates are less interested in a "workable transit system" and more interested in a "model transit system." And you're right. We're more interested in the world-class transit system that the MAPS3 transit component has promised the citizens. That is why the citizens voted for it, and of the big ticket M3 items, it was the one with the most support by far, when many others did not even break even in opinion polls.

So what's wrong with advocating for a world-class transit system instead of a mere bus system? If that's what you take issue with, then address it.

Whoa. Spartan, you are off the charts on comprehending and restating what I wrote. Your post contains one misrepresentation after another.

I never said ther were muggings and shooting in the DC Georgetown district (actually, there was one but I didn't reference it and it was an outlier and the police and public went mad over that). What I said, Spartan, was that my daughter lived in a high crime area and that if you want to go to a nice touristy place in DC that was safe, you go to Georgetown. Which we did. The fact that you hung out at Georgetown doesn't surprise me because that is the trendy place to go and interns and students love it. But I categorically state that Georgetown is merely one locale in DC and not representative of the whole city - in fact, one of the reasons it is so trendy is because it is one of the safest areas you can go.

As for saying DC had a pointless transit system I never said that, either. What I said was that the system worked well for the people who lived on the lines but that for your average middle class Joe who wanted decent public schools, it was merely a leg of their daily commute which runs between second and third worst in the nation.. That has been my point, repeatedly and you have repeatedly ignored that part of the equation. And while we are on the subject, do you have any idea how the DC metro is funded? It isn't self sustaining. Moreover, without additional individual subsidies, most people couldn't afford to use it. The federal employees get a several hundred dollar a month metro stipend to help in paying for their commute. You realize that, do you not? Many couldn't even afford to work in DC if they had to pay the entire fare. The remaining part of the fare, btw, could easily run into another $100.00 or more. Look it up if you don't believe me. The system receives, in addition to tourist fares (which OKC doesn't have), hundreds of dollars per month in a federal stipend per worker who uses the system, plus $100.00 or more per worker beyond that. Most workers also have cars with the attendent costs because they need them to get to the metro in the first place. With all that, the Metro still runs in the red. You were trying to make it out to be the end all of how peachy keen mass transit can be. It isn't unless you can actually get to DC in the first place - and the vast majority of people who work there don't live there. Moreover, even with massive federal subsidies (which are intended to encourage people to take the metro - most couldn't afford it without the stipend), it is running broke. If such a system was in OKC, people wouldn't use it. There is no way people would spend hundreds of dollars a month in fares in an area of the country where parking is so cheap. They don't have a federal stipend to encourage it and we don't have the tourism - and never will - that DC relies upon.

I can't recall if you and I have discussed the NYC subway system. You haven't read me complain about it and you won't. I think it works very well for its city because NYC is relatively landlocked, people live in the city, and cars aren't particularly useful due to lack of parking so people ditch then and use it. The cabs and buses make up that comprehensive system. It a completely different system than the one in DC.

In DC, as you know but perhaps others don't, the system is spoked from the middle so the further out you get from downtown, the more you have to rely on buses and other transportation. The furthest edges of the system are way, way too far apart to walk between and, in many neighborhoods, it is too dangerous to walk traffic wise or crime wise. DC buses are regularly used to get from one line to another and when the metro stations are closed for repair, police incident or accident (this happens regularly).

The DC metro is significantly smaller than the NYC subway system - you really can't even compare them in size and scope. NYC is leaner, east to west, but longer. The subways generally run the length of Manhattan and beyond. Going cross town in buses and a few crosstown subway lines does a fantastic job of getting people where they want to be. You could walk between lines if you wanted to. It is also set up to get to the airports - something DC has problems with, at least in terms of Dulles. But most people don't have cars in NYC because of the cost of parking. That is not the case in OKC, nor would that sort of system work here.

I never said OKC should only have buses. Go back and read, my friend. What I said, repeatedly, was that we should use what we have to gain credibility when public transit improvements are asked for, and to demonstrate that public trans advocates are willing to make adjustments to their personal freedom in order to use public transportation. Let me say this again as clearly as possible so that you will understand: I believe people who believe in public transportation should make use of our current public transportation. That is not equivalent to saying OKC should not have any other public transportation than the bus system. It is also not that same thing as saying that I think the bus system couldn't be improved. And in fact, I repeatedly said that people shouldn't use routes that don't work because that is not a system that works. I fail to see anything remotely controversial in encouraging ridership on the buses when they work. As Betts and I discussed, I don't believe that by using the system it will send a message that it is "good enough." That is my opinion and you are free to disagree but I am not sure why you have to be so uncivil about it.

And in fact, not only did I not say we should just have a bus system, I specifically said that I had no objection to the shuttle system. Why are you trying to turn this into some sort of controversy, Spartan? This thread was not about the shuttle system VS a bus system and being forced to choose. It was about OKC's inferiority complex which I believe rears its ugly head when it comes to our current bus system.

As for which bus route, I used to take the one that ran on 23rd from about Meridian to Western, then up and down as needed. I also used to take the bus to OCU. I am not sure why I would answer the question to someone so rude as to call me a liar but there you go.

Spartan, get off my case, would you? If it so offensive to you to read that someone actually is proud of their city, just skip my posts. You've made bizarre comments about my alleged politics, now you are calling me a liar (excuse me, "calling my bluff"). I didn't come to this thread to get this sort of personal attacks from you. It almost sounds as if you can't abide someone who disagrees with what you consider to be "your" area, at least based on your repeated comments suggesting I am just uninformed and the like. There is no reason to "go" there if you are interested in a civil conversation. I should think the message board would be big enough to manage more than one opinion on the subject without your personal attacks.

[Larry OKC]

Oklahoma City leaders unsure how to improve outdated Metro Transit system (Oklahoman, 6/8/11)

“It's not surprising when people have a choice between car and public transit, and when we tell them we only have a bus that comes by every 40 minutes or an hour, or you have to walk a mile, you don't see many of them choosing public transportation,” Cain said.
...
Shrink the service to 200 square miles in the urban core, Marrs suggested, and the same funding might allow for a good public transportation network.
Mayor Mick Cornett summarized the debate by saying the city's size and the setup of Metro Transit is a fundamental problem — and one without easy answers.
“This council inherited the bus system and routes we have,” Cornett said. “The problem is trying to shrink an existing system. If we started from scratch, we wouldn't have the system we have.”

Read more: http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-lead...#ixzz1Og3qRaaq

[progressiveboy]

Wow this thread is getting way "off topic" maybe the mods need to move this to the transportation thread, LOL.

[Larry OKC]

I hesitated posting my last one here just for that reason...had a heck of a time locating this thread, kept looking in the Transportation one for the most recent discussion! (And this is coming from one of the worst offenders of straying off topic. Heck I even derailed my own thread!)