2010 and trains still have to blow horns?

[rcjunkie]

not that easy my friend: earplugs are useless in these level of noise and train engineers have to listen to radio messages.....

At any specialty safety equipment store, you can by ear muffs that have/include radio transmitting devices, may cost you around 200.00, but better than loss of hearing.

[torea]

you mean that people who don't work in trains have still ears.
Most retired train engineers have no more hearing capacities.

[rcjunkie]

you mean that people who don't work in trains have still ears.
Most retired train engineers have no more hearing capacities.

? english please

[Stan Silliman]

It's 2011 and why don't we have high speed rail, like Europe or Japan or other modern countries?
If you had high speed rail there'd be no horns because the highways would run over or under the tracks.

[OKCisOK4me]

Is there a Kansas City forum where you can complain about your 3 railroad crossings noise pollution or something? Can you write to the government instead of complaining about it to us. You're not going to get anywhere, otherwise. Of your 18 posts, are any of them outside of this thread? Let's move on Torea. We know what you want but none of us can do anything for you.

[torea]

Stan,
Also on the non-high speed rails in Europe and Japan, trains are not allowed to use horns and generate unnecessary noise (except in emergency situations).
Only in our good old US of A we still dream of the romantic Western cowboy movies. Trains are forced to honk at least 4 times for every crossing.

This FRA rule not only harms the train engineers but keeps also awake millions of hard working citizens.
I don't know any other country in the world where safety is translated into creating noise pollution and keeping the citizens awake.

[torea]

@ OKCis OK4you

This train noise problem exists in the whole USA, not only in OKC or KC.
I don't understand why we the people in the US accept these kind of bureaucratic FRA rules in 2011.

[OKCisOK4me]

Yeah, okay, gotcha. But it's not a problem unless you make it a problem. Why don't you go around your neighborhood and see how many people are up in arms with you about it. Chances are they live with it because the cost of living is much cheaper in that area. If you can afford more, then move! You're trying to fight a battle that is too big for you. That's all I'm saying.

[torea]

I agree that this battle is too big for one person but if nobody acts, this country will remain unique in the world: labeled as "noise polluted" by its own legislators.

Maybe I should contact organizations of retired railroad engineers and propose them to sue their ex-employers to obtain financial compensation for the loss of hearing.
A large number of lawsuits usually helps to convince administrations and large companies.

[Roadhawg]

This has probably been brought up before but I didn't read the whole thread.... Didn't the tracks exist before the housing, or at least you moving into that house? Trains still blow horns because there are dumb asses that don't look and go around the crossing arms. Can you imagine the liability if the train hit a car and didn't give a warning sound.

[torea]

@Roadhawg:
Only these dumb asses are liable since they are crossing at least 4 flashing red lights as well as the lowered crossing arms.
The FRA should help with laws to make these train traffic rules violators pay for all the damage in case of an accident. Huge fine and insurance premium increases, up to loss of drivers license should be the penalty for everyone caught going around the crossing arms.
The train honking is not a penalty for these dummies. It is a penalty for all the people living around our railroads.

The tracks indeed existed long time ago (I believe the Indians were still populating most part of the US).
Meanwhile the world changed: 100 times more people are now living in the US , 1,000 times more trains are now supporting our expanding economy. This is not the time to force every train to honk 4 times to protect these guys you call "dumb asses".

Could you imagine a new law forcing every car to honk 3 times before crossing every intersection? This would indeed help to protect the few idiots crossing the traffic red lights!

[kevinpate]

It's like being over at newsok.com, only with a different color scheme on the graphics.

[Roadhawg]

If I moved into a neighborhood, one close to railroad tracks and crossings, I would expect to hear train horns whenever they went by. It's a little late to complain about the horns after you choose to move there. IMHO

[torea]

Roadhawg, IMHO you are right except for the fact that the FRA imposed this 4 times train honking after a transition period only a few years ago. This quadrupled the train noise for everyone living near a railroad longer than 2 years. So I will continue to protest these unnecessary noise pollution rules invented recently by the FRA.
Just as everyone I have no problem with normal (emergency) honking by trains.

[UnclePete]

Trains have been blowing their horns for crossings ever since there have been cars and trains. The 4 years ago you mention is when the FRA tried to lessen the amount of blowing. Torea, why don't you move?

Roadhawg, IMHO you are right except for the fact that the FRA imposed this 4 times train honking after a transition period only a few years ago. This quadrupled the train noise for everyone living near a railroad longer than 2 years. So I will continue to protest these unnecessary noise pollution rules invented recently by the FRA.
Just as everyone I have no problem with normal (emergency) honking by trains.

[Roadhawg]

Roadhawg, IMHO you are right except for the fact that the FRA imposed this 4 times train honking after a transition period only a few years ago. This quadrupled the train noise for everyone living near a railroad longer than 2 years. So I will continue to protest these unnecessary noise pollution rules invented recently by the FRA.
Just as everyone I have no problem with normal (emergency) honking by trains.

How many times did the trains sound their horns before that?

[torea]

UnclePete, did you have a bad dream? Anyway your logo shows where you are working so you assume everyone has to move for your increasing train noise!

Since you are an "insider", you should have read the FRA's final rule:
http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/saf...ule_081706.pdf here you can find the following statement:
"Existing restrictions on the
routine sounding of the locomotive horn
may remain in place until June 24, 2010"
This explains why less than a year ago trans started to honk at least 4 times for each railroad crossing. -as required by the FRA rule-

[Roadhawg]

UnclePete, did you have a bad dream? Anyway your logo shows where you are working so you assume everyone has to move for your increasing train noise!

Since you are an "insider", you should have read the FRA's final rule:
http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/saf...ule_081706.pdf here you can find the following statement:
"Existing restrictions on the
routine sounding of the locomotive horn
may remain in place until June 24, 2010"
This explains why less than a year ago trans started to honk at least 4 times for each railroad crossing. -as required by the FRA rule-

It also gives a few exceptions for certain categories of rail operations and highway-rail grade crossings. It appears your area doesn't qualify for those exceptions or exceptions haven't been applied for.

Section 20153(i) of title 49 requires FRA to ‘‘take into account the interest of communities that have in effect restrictions on the sounding of a locomotive horn at highway-rail grade
crossings.’’ FRA has complied with this requirement in several ways. Until December 24, 2005, the final rule allowed communities to establish Pre-Rule Quiet Zones, if the Quiet Zone Risk
Index was at, or below, two times the Nationwide Significant Risk Threshold and there were no relevant collisions within the quiet zone since April 27, 2000. (See § 222.41.) It should also be noted that the final rule allows communities to establish Pre-Rule Quiet Zones, if SSMs have been implemented at every public grade crossing within the quiet zone or if the Quiet Zone Risk Index is at, or below, the Nationwide Significant Risk Threshold.)

[torea]

@Roadhawg : you are right (again).
The small city where I live cannot afford to spend $6 Million to install quiet zones (yet another splendid invention of the FRA).
It's worth to read the following article about the "quiet zone" experience in a bigger city here in the neighborhood:
http://www.fox4kc.com/wdaf-olathe-qu...,7084851.story

In short the FRA understood quickly that the new (4 times) honking rules were unacceptable in densely populated areas.
Instead of correcting the useless honking rules, the added even more bureaucratic rules forcing all cities to install expensive "quiet zones"

[Roadhawg]

@Roadhawg : you are right (again).
The small city where I live cannot afford to spend $6 Million to install quiet zones (yet another splendid invention of the FRA).
It's worth to read the following article about the "quiet zone" experience in a bigger city here in the neighborhood:
http://www.fox4kc.com/wdaf-olathe-qu...,7084851.story

In short the FRA understood quickly that the new (4 times) honking rules were unacceptable in densely populated areas.
Instead of correcting the useless honking rules, the added even more bureaucratic rules forcing all cities to install expensive "quiet zones"

Once again how many times did the trains honk their horns before this change? Did you know the tracks were there before you moved there?

[torea]

Before the new FRA rules. there was no mandatory honking. Moreover every city could request the railroads to be quiet on their territory.

But my main point is that honking does not improve the safety of any crossing (rail or road). I read somewhere that the honking is needed to avoid lawsuits after accidents. No kidding: give these irresponsible drivers serious penalties and let them pay all expenses after passing a closed railroad crossing. Don't penalize these hard working people in many cities in the US.
On the above fox4kc link you can look at a short clip where a citizen of Olathe complains about the 2800 daily blows (this represents 5 hours full time honking per day).

Is there nobody who dares to question the safety-overreaction attitude of most administrations?

Homeland Security is another good example: they are experts in inventing new rules to make travel by plane a bad experience but forget to help homeland people who were dying in New Orleans after the hurricane.
Recently with the introduction of the new body scanners I remarked that you have to empty now all your pockets (They even take away your wallet full of paper money and credit cards). Who is going to pay for the lost (or stolen) wallets?
Is the next acceptable "security" check a full (including intimate) body search for men, woman and kids?

[Roadhawg]

Before the new FRA rules. there was no mandatory honking. Moreover every city could request the railroads to be quiet on their territory.

But my main point is that honking does not improve the safety of any crossing (rail or road). I read somewhere that the honking is needed to avoid lawsuits after accidents.

I may be mistaking but I was under the impression blowing the horn at intersections wasn't an option before the new rules. Your thinking honking the horn doesn't improve the safety, where did you come up with this? You never did answer my question of how many times they honked the horn before this rule change. You give the impression they didn't and I'll just assume you knew there was a railroad there when you moved there since you didn't answer that question either.

[torea]

I don't think anyone in the KC area is living further away than 1 mile from a railroad. (which was there forever probably since the Indians still populated these areas)
Forgive me for having lived here happy since 10 years and for not counting the (very few) number of times the trains honked the horn.
But I can assure you that the last 2 years the horns blow louder and more frequently ( up to 110 decibel an 4 times for every crossing, as imposed by the FRA).
And please don't come with manipulated statistics about traffic safety. Drunk driving, not respecting red lights, speeding, even wearing safety belts were all improved by heavy fines, increased insurance premiums, loss of drivers license and even jail sentence. Trains might be bigger and louder but if the red lights, the bells and the lowered crossing arms have no effect on a drunk driver, the honking won't hold him neither.
You didn't answer my question neither if you would accept a new rule to make every car honk 3 times before crossing any green traffic light!

[Roadhawg]

That's because you're question is asinine and irrelevant. Not sure where drunk driving came into the discussion and also not sure what if any statistics I've posted but not sure why you would think they are manipulated in any way. I didn't realize we were talking about KC but maybe, just maybe, they got the exemptions mentioned earlier. Evidently your community hasn't installed the safety upgrades to get the exemptions so you're pretty much SOL unless you move. The only way to have a world without whistles is to have a world without idiots.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lifesaver
http://oli.org/

[torea]

Only idiots don't answer questions (labeling them as irrelevant) and only idiots believe the (uncontrolled) statistics created by any other idiot on Wikipedia.
It's so easy to create cruel car accident pictures as well. The best way to reduce the number of car and train accidents to zero is to make them respect a 3MPH speed at every crossing, permanently honking plus having someone walk in front of the train and the car waving a big red flag. Even the drunk driving idiots would not be able to create accidents anymore!
Finally only idiots believe they are always right, they are the center of the world, everyone else has to move and that the world does not change.
(We all have to move because the Indians were here first)