OG&E smart meter

[jn1780]

I find it insane that adults even need a smart meter to tell them not to run the air conditioner all day, turn off unused lights, if its plugged in its drawing electricity, etc.

It would be interesting to know specifically how many kilowatts we use a day or season. Are people going to change their habits because of it? Probably not. People who are trying to conserve energy already have programmable thermostats, energy efficient appliances, and turn off their lights when not in the room.

The biggest benefit I see is that it lets utility companies fine tune their grid a little bit better. They may be able to turn off a turbine or two at 6:56 A.M. instead of 7:00 A.M. It also removes the "meter is running fast" argument.

[windowphobe]

OG&E doesn't have a peak-hour tariff: the current rates vary with usage and with season, but not with the time of day.

[HewenttoJared]

OG&E doesn't have a peak-hour tariff: the current rates vary with usage and with season, but not with the time of day.

Yea that's odd. To me the hourly cost changes are the actual efficiency part of owning a smart meter.

[ChevyMan]

OG&E doesn't have a peak-hour tariff: the current rates vary with usage and with season, but not with the time of day.

I assume that they will have variable pricing later. The meter can do, so I don't see why OGE wouldn't use that capability later.

[Double Edge]

They will have to make a convincing case for it with the corporation commission first.

[Joe Daddy]

It sounds to me like a veiled way to increase rates by charging you more to run your AC at the time of day where solar heat infiltration is greatest, and therefore the greatest need for running your AC.

Anybody else get that impression or am I missing something here?

[HewenttoJared]

It sounds to me like a veiled way to increase rates by charging you more to run your AC at the time of day where solar heat infiltration is greatest, and therefore the greatest need for running your AC.

Anybody else get that impression or am I missing something here?

That electricity costs more to produce depending on demand.

[Joe Daddy]

I've learned a little about energy usage and thermodynamics over the years as it pertains to heat gain and heat loss of structures. Does OG&E think it will save energy by forcing people to turn their AC units off during peak hours? That will only cause people to run their AC units 2-3 or more times longer after peak hours to remove the BTU's (British Thermal Units) of heat from their homes that built up while they were shut down. Refrigeration is the process of removing heat from a place where it is not wanted, and moving it where it is less objectionable, ie: from indoors to outdoors. AC is simply high temperature refrigeration.

If you allow heat to build up in your home during peak hours, you will spend more in the long run removing that heat. One "ton" of refrigeration = 12,000 BTU's per hour, or 200 BTU's per minute. To put that into perspective, a human being generates 350-400 BTUH at rest. If one human generates 350 BTUH, just imagine how many BTUH the sun puts into your home through solar heat gain, and the infiltration from the outdoor ambient temperature when it's 100 degrees outside. Heat flows naturally from hot to cold, so that 100 degree ambient will be infiltrating your 78 degree home rapidly while your AC system is off. Add in the BTUH from cooking, televisions, computers and other electrical appliances and you get a massive sensible and latent heat gain.

Shutting down AC during peak hours will not result in any conservation of energy in the long run, and may well increase overall usage.

I sure hope someone at the Public Service Commission is knowledgeable in this area.

[HewenttoJared]

Peak hours require them to turn on more generators, which they have to shut down during slow times. The existence of peak hours adds cost to all the other hours so that cost is translated onto the hours that require the extra electricity.

[Joe Daddy]

Peak hours require them to turn on more generators, which they have to shut down during slow times. The existence of peak hours adds cost to all the other hours so that cost is translated onto the hours that require the extra electricity.

I knew all that already, HWTJ. I believe there are better ways of accomplishing energy savings. Forced shut down of AC during peak hours, only to run it 3 times longer during off-peak saves zero in the long run.

Good point Joe. That seems like a lot of work though and I wonder if it will simply cause people to just live with a little less AC. We all know people who like to keep their house like a refrigerator.

Although, I suspect homes may not necessarily be the largest 'culprits'. I suspect commercial or industrial customers will pick up the biggest part of the bill and subsequently will try the hardest to reduce consumption.

Commercial users running mega tonnage chilled water refrigeration machines (chillers) are the greatest consumers of power. All those skyscrapers downtown run chillers, condenser water pumps, chilled water pumps, high-speed, high-velocity air handler fans, cooling tower fans and exhaust and ventilation fans to achieve the fresh air exchanges required. There's where massive savings can be achieved with comprehensive energy audits.

But I'm afraid OG&E will go after the easy target of raising homeowner rates instead when thse "smart meters" are deployed.

[Double Edge]

All those potential future uses aside, some benefits immediately include automated use reporting versus using human meter readers physically checking every meter every month; automated reporting of outages; ability to turn power off and on remotely rather than sending trucks out.

[Double Edge]

I knew all that already, HWTJ. I believe there are better ways of accomplishing energy savings. Forced shut down of AC during peak hours, only to run it 3 times longer during off-peak saves zero in the long run.




Commercial users running mega tonnage chilled water refrigeration machines (chillers) are the greatest consumers of power. All those skyscrapers downtown run chillers, condenser water pumps, chilled water pumps, high-speed, high-velocity air handler fans, cooling tower fans and exhaust and ventilation fans to achieve the fresh air exchanges required. There's where massive savings can be achieved with comprehensive energy audits.

But I'm afraid OG&E will go after the easy target of raising homeowner rates instead when thse "smart meters" are deployed.

Most commercial buildings are on demand meters now. IMO there's not much reason for OGE to go after residential customers. But if they can make a case that residential customers cause problems of demand, adding expensive generating equipment to keep up, etc. do you not think the people who cause those problems should have to pay for them? If not, who should? Again. OGE can't do these things on a whim or on the idea it's going to be a windfall profit, they have to sell any rate changes to the CC first.

[HewenttoJared]

I knew all that already, HWTJ. I believe there are better ways of accomplishing energy savings. Forced shut down of AC during peak hours, only to run it 3 times longer during off-peak saves zero in the long run.

It's not about AC. AC will be used when it is needed. It's about moving the things you can to a time when they don't overlap with the AC usage and spike the drain so high that you have to build extra plants.

[Joe Daddy]

Most commercial buildings are on demand meters now. IMO there's not much reason for OGE to go after residential customers. But if they can make a case that residential customers cause problems of demand, adding expensive generating equipment to keep up, etc. do you not think the people who cause those problems should have to pay for them? If not, who should? Again. OGE can't do these things on a whim or on the idea it's going to be a windfall profit, they have to sell any rate changes to the CC first.

I don't disagree that energy hogs should pay. I recall one guy on here a while back that bragged about keeping his house at 68 degrees in the summer. How do you sort out people like that from a reasonable user that maintains indoor air temps from 75-78 degrees?

Further, how many people maintain their AC systems? Your condensing unit (the part that sits outside) should be disassembled and cleaned annually. I wonder how many folks here get that done? Dirty condensers waste millions of watts of energy each year. And squirting it off with your garden hose while you're watering the flowers won't cut it.

Maybe some kind of rate rebate system would work. I know other electrical service providers like the Southern Company have programs where consumers can get reduced rates for reducing usage voluntarily.

But the first time you get a $1,200 Smart Meter bill might be quite an eye opener to the downside of these things. I'm not saying that will automatically happen, but it has in the past in other states, and the power company won't likely admit to any errors.

[Joe Daddy]

It's not about AC. AC will be used when it is needed. It's about moving the things you can to a time when they don't overlap with the AC usage and spike the drain so high that you have to build extra plants.

What else is left besides electric ovens, cooktops and water heaters? Here in the land of natural gas, I'd bet most folks have gas water heaters and cook tops. How often to you bake in the afternoons in summertime?

OG&E should be required to get homeowner consent to put one of these on your house. Couple that with an incentive to accept it and I'll get on board with it. As of right now, I don't have enough information as to how OG&E intends to deploy these Smart Meters, and their intentions as to their useage.

[HewenttoJared]

The free market is incapable of solving the atmospheric disruption problem. E solutions are going to be huge, invasive and hated by many. But the good news is that the sooner we get started the less invasive and draconian the restrictions will be further down the line.

[bluedogok]

It's not about AC. AC will be used when it is needed. It's about moving the things you can to a time when they don't overlap with the AC usage and spike the drain so high that you have to build extra plants.

Yes and no.....Austin Energy (municipal utility) has a program where they will provide you with a "free thermostat" that retains the ability to be cycled off by the utility at peak demand periods. This is just the beginning of exercise more control over their customers. In Austin, since it is a municipal utility we do not have a choice of energy providers although a rep from outside of Austin has introduced a bill to eliminate the municipal utility exception.

I am very hot natured, in the winter the heat is hardly ever on and our gas/electric bills reflect that. No "free thermostat" for me, I will keep control of my own A/C thank you.

Austin Energy - Free Thermostats

[Joe Daddy]

Yes and no.....Austin Energy (municipal utility) has a program where they will provide you with a "free thermostat" that retains the ability to be cycled off by the utility at peak demand periods. This is just the beginning of exercise more control over their customers. In Austin, since it is a municipal utility we do not have a choice of energy providers although a rep from outside of Austin has introduced a bill to eliminate the municipal utility exception.

I am very hot natured, in the winter the heat is hardly ever on and our gas/electric bills reflect that. No "free thermostat" for me, I will keep control of my own A/C thank you.

Austin Energy - Free Thermostats

They have a similar product for electric water heaters in other states. The thermostat is an interesting concept. Other utilities have a radio controlled disconnect at the condenser disconnect.

Kinda funny how they are marketing it as a "free" thermostat, lol. Many utilities rebate $10-$25 off your monthly bill when they activate it. Looks like Austin is trying to bamboozle customers with that "free" t-stat.

[HewenttoJared]

Yes and no.....Austin Energy (municipal utility) has a program where they will provide you with a "free thermostat" that retains the ability to be cycled off by the utility at peak demand periods. This is just the beginning of exercise more control over their customers. In Austin, since it is a municipal utility we do not have a choice of energy providers although a rep from outside of Austin has introduced a bill to eliminate the municipal utility exception.

I am very hot natured, in the winter the heat is hardly ever on and our gas/electric bills reflect that. No "free thermostat" for me, I will keep control of my own A/C thank you.

Austin Energy - Free Thermostats

That's a separate program from what I was talking about.

[LarryQ]

I also do not want a Smart Meter.
I just have not heard any explanations about what is going to be done with the information collected by these units.

1) How long is the data Kept?
2) Who has access to the data?
3) What steps had OGE taken to secure this information?
4) Can the Police or other law enforcement agencies access this data?
5) Is a court order required (I.E. Wiretapping and surveillance)
6) Does this data violate the 5th amendment against self-incrimination if used to prosecute?
7) What are the security protocols for the wireless communications and how often are the encryption keys rotated?

And others...

The main problem I have is that OGE just "Laughs It Off" and won't even address these issues.

I ended up sending a certified letter to OGE explaining all my concerns and instructing them that I do not consent to the installation of a smart meter on my residence.

I got a form letter extolling the virtues of the smart meter in return, but not a single concern I expressed was addressed.

I placed multiple placards on my existing meter, and installed a locking device to secure the meter to my home.

Yesterday I came home to find that my power had been interrupted sometime in the day.
I went out and found my locking device cut off, placards removed and gone, and a smart meter hanging on my home.

So now I am left with Theft of personal property, vandalism, and destruction of personal property.

I have 2 computers and a server that now will not boot as they were corrupted when the power was cut to install the smart meter.

I will be contacting OGE today, and if I get no satisfaction, I will have a police report filed.

I have before and after photos, a copy of my letter to OGE, the certified mail reciept, the form letter back, the destroyed locking device..ect..ect.....

There is just something fishy about OGE not even wanting to address the concerns of their customers.

LarryQ

[SoonerDave]

A few points...

* ONG has deployed their own equivalent of the "smart meter" for some time, and it started a long time ago. Their primary objective was to get rid of the meter reader. In effect, their "smart meter" amounts to a glorified cell phone that transmits meter data to a relay device and on to the billing system.

* The real objective of smart meters, aligned with the ability of utility companies gouging the individual customer relentlessly, is the ability to implement structured, rolling blackouts to various parts of the city to "equalize" distribution. Here in Oklahoma, we've got pretty darned reliable power, so this notion is fairly alien to us.

* Utilities aren't about to deploy anything beneficial to the *customer*, only if it is able to pad its own pockets. Rest assured that's the underlying motivation for any utility to deploy any such technology.

* Smart Meters are part of the broader ecohysterics madness that is infecting every aspect of our lives, and has an underlying goal of controlling, limiting, or rationing electricity in years to come. The notion isn't that we can't produce the electricity - its that the ecohysterics about its production being inherently evil are being manifest as public policy right down to our coffee pots.

[CuatrodeMayo]

[Thunder]

I also do not want a Smart Meter.
I just have not heard any explanations about what is going to be done with the information collected by these units.

1) How long is the data Kept?
2) Who has access to the data?
3) What steps had OGE taken to secure this information?
4) Can the Police or other law enforcement agencies access this data?
5) Is a court order required (I.E. Wiretapping and surveillance)
6) Does this data violate the 5th amendment against self-incrimination if used to prosecute?
7) What are the security protocols for the wireless communications and how often are the encryption keys rotated?

And others...

The main problem I have is that OGE just "Laughs It Off" and won't even address these issues.

I ended up sending a certified letter to OGE explaining all my concerns and instructing them that I do not consent to the installation of a smart meter on my residence.

I got a form letter extolling the virtues of the smart meter in return, but not a single concern I expressed was addressed.

I placed multiple placards on my existing meter, and installed a locking device to secure the meter to my home.

Yesterday I came home to find that my power had been interrupted sometime in the day.
I went out and found my locking device cut off, placards removed and gone, and a smart meter hanging on my home.

So now I am left with Theft of personal property, vandalism, and destruction of personal property.

I have 2 computers and a server that now will not boot as they were corrupted when the power was cut to install the smart meter.

I will be contacting OGE today, and if I get no satisfaction, I will have a police report filed.

I have before and after photos, a copy of my letter to OGE, the certified mail reciept, the form letter back, the destroyed locking device..ect..ect.....

There is just something fishy about OGE not even wanting to address the concerns of their customers.

LarryQ

You have a limited case against OG&E and judgement should award you some money. However, I think the law allows OG&E to invade your property and replace the meters, because the meters is property of OG&E. Did they send advanced notice of their planned arrival to replace the meters? If not, then that is OG&E's fault. As for the lock that you bought on your own and locked the meters to the house, did it obstruct OG&E's capability to view and/or open the meters box? Can you provide a picture of how you locked it? I think that by OG&E breaking the lock itself is a violation...which was done without a warrant and your presence...by force. You could be compensated for the cost of the lock. Will you be able to provide hardcore evidence that OG&E's action resulted in your computers being doomed beyond repair? Honestly, that will be hard to prove, because OG&E can argue that your computers malfunctioned before or after their visit. Also, have your computers ever gone this route of being damaged during past power flickers and outages? Hard to believe...personally, I believe its impossible...for loss of electricity to severely damage computers. Like I said, you have a case against OG&E, but they will ultimately win with their legal rights to demand their own customers use it or go elsewhere. At least, you will be compensated for some things. As for their failure to respond and address your concerns is a huge No-No, so the judge will strike OG&E down on that. Good luck and hope all goes well.

[SoonerDave]

Here are a few things to understand:

* Every piece of residential property has what's called a "utility easement" that conveys an implicit right to access on the part of properly sanctioned utilities to access and install equipment on your property pursuant to the utility they provide. You don't have a right of prior notification or consent. Like it or not, it's their easement and their meter.

* The utility owns everything in conjunction with the service they provide up to what's called the "demarcation point," which is a $10 word for the point at which the service enters your house and you become responsible for it thereafter.

* You cannot damage or obstruct access to the property owned by the utility, and I believe there is an implicit right for the utility to use "reasonable measures" to overcome any obstacles that inhibit their ability to access the property or materials they own. Obstructing access is, if I recall correctly, effectively considered damaging it, so taking tinsnips to a padlock is not unreasonable or illegal.

Do I like all the subtleties these kinds of rules imply? Not necessarily, but they exist nonetheless. I'm not crazy about smartmeters, either, but I'm not in a position to pull up stakes and move to a cave in the mountains, nor put up a windmill, n or deploy solar panels, so at this point my alternatives are limited. Does this mean the utility has me by the proverbial short-hairs? I guess so.

The concerns about IR and all that are pointless, because the absence/presence of one meter on your house matters not one whit in comparison to the dozens of houses around you that DO have the meter and are happily transmitting usage data wirelessly to whatever nameless, faceless collection point is using it.

I personally think more folks should be much more concerned about how their signature is being captured at most retail outlets on electronic signature capture devices, because it could be used for far more nefarious purposes, but I digress...

[Jim Kyle]

Hard to believe...personally, I believe its impossible...for loss of electricity to severely damage computers.

Just a single point: it's definitely possible, and happens fairly often, although not nearly so frequently as it did some 20 years ago. Loss of power at certain critical points during the system's operation can scramble the data on disk files, making it impossible to access that stored data again. With older equipment, power loss could cause a "head crash" which physically destroys the disk surface and the read-write head that normally flies a few millionths of an inch above that surface. It's the equivalent of gouging a hunk out of the disk itself. I once heard such a crash; the shriek of metal on metal drowned out normal office noise throughout an entire floor of the building.

That said, I seriously doubt that the OP's equipment suffered such physical damage. It's possible that he lost all of his files. What kind of dollar value can you put on all the files and records of one's business? Can he prove that the loss was not due to his own negligence, in failing to have full and accurate backup copies in an off-site location? Can he outlast a utility company's ability to keep things tied up in court indefinitely?

As for fears of RF from the meters, anyone suffering such fear should also rip all electrical wiring out of the walls, and move at least half a mile from the nearest power line, to get away from the invisible AC fields that surround all such wiring. I've measured those fields in my own home, which is an ordinary three-bedroom residence with no exotic additions, at approximately 150 volts in the middle of the room. They're "static" fields, with no current flow, and cause no detectable damage to living tissue. In fact, one can correlate (if so inclined) the existence of such fields almost everywhere in the USA with the increase in life expectancy over the past century!

As for the OP's problem, I hope he has more money for lawyers than does OG&E. He's gonna need it.