Unions versus the city and state?

[Midtowner]

Mid- then how do you feel about the Chamber being the driving force and main money contributor to city council seat elections? Do you not see a conflict of interest with Taxpayers funds being used to endorse and support candidates? They are doing this right now as the Committee for OKC Momentum. But I'm sure you'll never see it on the news or in print since the Media is synonymous with the Chamber.

It's pretty out in the open, really.

The fact is though, while right now, you may have a little bit of grassroots power, don't underestimate the power of the Chamber, who does hold real power in this state to push through just about any legislation it wants, to decimate your power structure and organization.

Unions ought to be smarter about picking fights they can't win. You may win the city council, but the legislature is owned lock stock and barrel by the Chamber.

[rcjunkie]

Agree with the miners union example, but one question on the GM example. How did Ford, same union, same agreement manage to make a profit?

Better MANAGEMENT! (which are non-union)

[rcjunkie]

I think the three local unions (FOP, AFSCME and IAFF) would have more power/imput/say so, if they were self supporting. If they are that valuable to it's members, why must they rely/expect the Citizens of OKC to pay the salaries of the Union President and some support staff.

[mugofbeer]

So as not to betray your principles, you would have no choice but to go to work for a lower paying non-unionized company, because at a higher paying unionized company in a state without right to work the union could take money out of your paychecks without you being an actual union member? Not me, because I would feel like an idiot working for less at a non-unionized company when I could be making more money at a unionized one.

Isn't that selling your soul for a little more money, much of which goes to pay union dues. Then, much of your union dues goes to political causes and payng union cronies you may have no desire to support or pay? To me, that is betraying principles

[Steve]

But in cities, it's the city manager and further down in management, who negotiate contracts, not someone elected like the mayor. And a lot of city workers will be afraid to speak out against the city manager's policies out of fear of being fired, whether union member or not.

In OKC the mayor and council meet in long executive sessions and give city staff instructions on their goals in negotiations.

[Wambo36]

Better MANAGEMENT! (which are non-union)

So you're saying the MANAGEMENT at GM and Chrysler were UNION? Wow Junkie, who'da thunk it! Good point!
Your world is so much more interesting than reality.

[barnold]

Mid- It may be out in the open but it smacks of bordering on being illegal with the exception of the IE loopholes. I don't believe most people in OKC understand that their tax dollars are going to fund council people's political races.

As far as the Chamber, I disagree. I believe that they control the Council much more than the legislature. I see the tilt at the Legislative level more due to a Republican influence with an agenda to try and break up labor organizations. Their hand was really shown in Wisconsin with their Nutjob governor today when he got pranked. He even admitted that he's been in talks with the other new Rep. Governors to try and set the stage.

[bombermwc]

Guys, this is the same crap we all discussed with the UAW and GM. Don't pretend for one minute that a union today has any similarity to the unions that were set up in the early 1900's to protect LIFE. Most unions today are pissing and moaning for little things...that's NOT why they were created. You find me a state goverment employee that is violating child labor laws (which unions got created), working in conditions that jeopardize their life every day (unions worked to make the workplace safer), or someone that works 100 hours a week regularly...without overtime (unions worked to correct that as well).

So forgive me if I feel no sympathy for people pissing about a higher insurance premium (which the rest of us in the corporate world already pay), and not getting a raise (yup, we got screwed over on that one too). I'm not saying it's not a great ride for those that are under the union umbrella, but that doesn't mean it's fair. GM fought that crap until the union finally caused them to go bankrupt. And guess what, all those overly inflated benefits are gone now...and instantly GM was able to come back to profitability. Mangement was totally screwed up there as well, so I'll give you that. But Unions had PLENTY to do with it based on their contracts. You were wondering about the guranteed job? Apparently you didn't see all the contracts that involved how/when a union employee could be fired at GM (oh and by the way, the white collar folks lost out on a TON of beneit opportunities because they had to give them up to help pay for the blue collar folks. Makes sense huh...let the college degree person make less than the person screwing the seat to the frame with barely a GED). Salaries aren't the comparison there, it's the overall compensataion, where white collar lost out BAD. And you find me someone at a govt. job that gets fired...those numbers are so much smaller than those in the private world. In my short stent at the FAA at the MMAC, i knew of people that got caught looking at porn several times and no one could even talk to them...there's an employee union there. They have plenty folks that do a great job, but they also can't seem to get rid of the bad apples because of the union's ability to cause loss through litigation. That's totally fair.....so your tax dollars pay for someone to screw around all day rather than work..and you can't get rid of them either.

1 - You can't expect to not contribute to a fund if you want money out of it later.
2 - You can't ride on a cadillac health plan and expect it to not have repercussions to your company later...especially a PPO.
3 - Pay has to be reflective of the market in your area, not compared to a national average. Guess what, we make less in OK....it also costs less to live here.

[Joe Daddy]

Better MANAGEMENT! (which are non-union)

Same union. Same contract. So you are saying GM's problems were incompetent managemant? We agree then.

Wow! Old conservo-bots CAN admit when they are wrong.

[BoulderSooner]

Mid- It may be out in the open but it smacks of bordering on being illegal with the exception of the IE loopholes. I don't believe most people in OKC understand that their tax dollars are going to fund council people's political races.

As far as the Chamber, I disagree. I believe that they control the Council much more than the legislature. I see the tilt at the Legislative level more due to a Republican influence with an agenda to try and break up labor organizations. Their hand was really shown in Wisconsin with their Nutjob governor today when he got pranked. He even admitted that he's been in talks with the other new Rep. Governors to try and set the stage.

tax dollars are not going to fund a council persons race .. private business dollars are

[barnold]

Boulder- that's a Bold Bald Face Lie. Funds that go to the chamber are tax payers funds. How in H%#L would they not be?

[rcjunkie]

So you're saying the MANAGEMENT at GM and Chrysler were UNION? Wow Junkie, who'da thunk it! Good point!
Your world is so much more interesting than reality.

Never said they were, does the Fire Union offer reading and retention classes.

[rcjunkie]

Same union. Same contract. So you are saying GM's problems were incompetent managemant? We agree then.

Wow! Old conservo-bots CAN admit when they are wrong.

Did you and barnold go to the same school !!

[rcjunkie]

Same union. Same contract. So you are saying GM's problems were incompetent managemant? We agree then.

Wow! Old conservo-bots CAN admit when they are wrong.

Management problems were defiantely a part of GM's problems, not nearly as as detrimental as overpaid and over benefitted Union Workers, but a part.

[barnold]

OMG!!! RC just admitted that management could actually be wrong and a part of the problem. Did Hell just freeze over? Are there pigs flying? And with his long history of being a manager of lawnmowers and weed whackers......miracles will never cease.

[rcjunkie]

OMG!!! RC just admitted that management could actually be wrong and a part of the problem. Did Hell just freeze over? Are there pigs flying? And with his long history of being a manager of lawnmowers and weed whackers......miracles will never cease.

I've always said and felt management had problems and could do better, unlike you, I see the whole picture. Show me one post where youv'e admitted the Union could have done better or improvements are needed within the rank and file, you can't or won't, you always have on your Union issued sun glasses..

PS. grease your hands before going down the pole.

[Joe Daddy]

Management problems were defiantely a part of GM's problems, not nearly as as detrimental as overpaid and over benefitted Union Workers, but a part.

Overpaid and overbenefitted union workers? Some of your conservative counterparts would say you fit that description to a tee. I bet 99% of them didn't start drawing a government pension at age 46 like you did.

This is what amazes me about middle class conservatives. They look out there across the country and they see blue collar workers earning a living wage, sending their children to college, having healthcare, taking annual vacations. But instead of feeling a sense of pride in America and working to obtain similar pay and benefits for themselves, they look at these fellow middle class Americans with disdain. Then they support conservative politicians who want to lower their standard of living because their election funds are paid for by industry, and industry wants to pay everyone less so they can profit more, and concentrate more and more wealth and power into the hands of the few.

And finally, most amazing of all, is how middle class conservatives stand up for and defend the top 1% who pays less as a percentage of their of income in taxes than the average middle class worker. And the corporations that move their manufacturing plants overseas? That's just fine wouth the conservative middle class too. For some reason, they feel that the wealthiest among us should not have to suffer and sacrifice along with the middle class and the poor.

Think about that tonight while you all are watching "Dancing With the Stars" or whichever entertainment media you choose to entertain yourselves with. Let the millionaires of the world entertain you as you envy and plot against your own middleclass friends neighbors and family.

[bornhere]

What Joe Daddy said.

[bombermwc]

I'll agree that the top % needs to start paying their part. But I'm also not going to give the union folks a free ride.

Let me remind you of the interview with an OKC GM employee before the closure. He dropped out of high school to work at GM...never got a GED. He was a line worker...nothing skilled. He earned a 30somethingK salary with all the 20K worth of benefits that went along with their contract. Oh and he was in his 30's at the time of the interview. Now, you look at that and tell me why I, as a college gradute of the middle class, should be happy with the fact that someone that dropped out of high school can get that salary and benefits by screwing a chair to a frame. THAT is the kind of crap that pissed me off. It has nothing to do with the class battles, it has to do with over-valuing the worker while someone else (the white collar employees at GM) were being undervalued. It's about telling someone that dropped out of high school, that it's fine because you can go to GM and get protected by the Union and make twice what you should.

Hey that's great for the employee, but it's not sustainable...and why should they be compensated like that? Hello bankruptcy for the company....hmmm, didnt that happen.

[bornhere]

Now, you look at that and tell me why I, as a college gradute of the middle class, should be happy with the fact that someone that dropped out of high school can get that salary and benefits by screwing a chair to a frame.

You should be happy because the UAW got out there and busted its butt for its members instead of thinking, 'Gee, if I kiss enough executive a** I'll be welcomed into the ranks of the ruling elite someday.'

You talk about overvaluing workers, but as is usual with conservatives, you think no one has any value except yourself.

[Joe Daddy]

I'll agree that the top % needs to start paying their part. But I'm also not going to give the union folks a free ride.

Unions are not getting this mythical free ride you speak of. Remember, they only make up 10% of the workforce today. It is fiscally impossible for unions to be the cause of all the problems right wing entertainment media blame them for.

Let me remind you of the interview with an OKC GM employee before the closure. He dropped out of high school to work at GM...never got a GED. He was a line worker...nothing skilled. He earned a 30somethingK salary with all the 20K worth of benefits that went along with their contract. Oh and he was in his 30's at the time of the interview.

Looking down upon a blue collar worker serves only to divide an already shrinking middle class. Truly, you should be happy for this man. He will buy a home, car consumer commodities and stimulate the economy with his earnings. And let me suggest that perhaps you should have worked on the assembly line for 30 years and feel the wear and tear on your body from the daily repetitive motion and see if you felt overpaid.

Now, you look at that and tell me why I, as a college gradute of the middle class, should be happy with the fact that someone that dropped out of high school can get that salary and benefits by screwing a chair to a frame. THAT is the kind of crap that pissed me off.

Do you feel that getting a college degree places you ahead of blue collar workers in the social order? Does graduating college with a degree ensure managerial competence? We all know the answer to that. The plumbing company that comes to your house to unstop your toilet will charge you up to $100 per hour, no degree required.

It has nothing to do with the class battles, it has to do with over-valuing the worker while someone else (the white collar employees at GM) were being undervalued. It's about telling someone that dropped out of high school, that it's fine because you can go to GM and get protected by the Union and make twice what you should.

So how much should this young man have been paid? If this mans wages had been cut in half, do you think you were entitled to the other half simply because you graduated college? Class envy does indeed play into your attitude. Your statements both above and below says it all:

tell me why I, as a college gradute of the middle class, should be happy with the fact that someone that dropped out of high school can get that salary and benefits by screwing a chair to a frame

I'll tell you why. It is the same reason that the plumber can charge you $100 per hour for the high school dropout journeyman plumber to unstop your toilet or pump out your septic tank. Is it right that plumbing contractors make more than most BS, MS, PhD's or whatever degreed college graduates? Of course it is. You could have went to plumbing school and work in human urine and feces everyday, but you chose your degree path.

See, aren't you happy you're a white collar degree holder and not a turd chasing plumber?

The high school dropout assembly line worker applied for and got the job. The wages he was paid were negotiated between GM MANAGEMENT and the UAW. The UAW did not force GM to pay; it was the result of an agreed upon process.

What stopped you from working on the assembly line? Did you feel that type of work was beneath you?

Now, if it will make you feel any better, that high school dropout didn't have the options you had when the plant shut down. There was no free ride for this man. You can bet he probably wishes he had continued his education and saved a lot more money while working for GM. So, you're much better off than he is now most likely. You're feeling much better already I'd bet?

Hey that's great for the employee, but it's not sustainable...and why should they be compensated like that? Hello bankruptcy for the company....hmmm, didnt that happen.

You cannot justify this statement because GM went into government receviership. Chrysler survived, and Ford remained profitable with the same union and the same agreement. GM was mismanaged, simple as that. You cannot blame the union for management incompetence.

[Kerry]

You cannot justify this statement because GM went into government receviership. Chrysler survived, and Ford remained profitable with the same union and the same agreement. GM was mismanaged, simple as that. You cannot blame the union for management incompetence.

Let's not re-write history.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123540074568747921.html

The UAW caved to major concessions at Ford.

[Bunty]

Isn't that selling your soul for a little more money, much of which goes to pay union dues. Then, much of your union dues goes to political causes and payng union cronies you may have no desire to support or pay? To me, that is betraying principles

But you're wrong. Union dues don't go to political causes. Instead, they have special funds set up for that purpose for members to give to on a volunteer basis. And it wasn't about a little more money. When I joined a work place that had a union in it, my pay doubled over what I had been getting in a non unionized place.

[Bunty]

They look out there across the country and they see blue collar workers earning a living wage, sending their children to college, having healthcare, taking annual vacations. But instead of feeling a sense of pride in America and working to obtain similar pay and benefits for themselves, they look at these fellow middle class Americans with disdain. Then they support conservative politicians who want to lower their standard of living because their election funds are paid for by industry, and industry wants to pay everyone less so they can profit more, and concentrate more and more wealth and power into the hands of the few.

And finally, most amazing of all, is how middle class conservatives stand up for and defend the top 1% who pays less as a percentage of their of income in taxes than the average middle class worker. And the corporations that move their manufacturing plants overseas? That's just fine wouth the conservative middle class too. For some reason, they feel that the wealthiest among us should not have to suffer and sacrifice along with the middle class and the poor.

But conservatives have really been voting for their best interests all along. It's because they put stopping the slaughter of babies in the wombs ahead of better working conditions for Americans. They feel the same way toward homosexuals and same sex marriage. They are against them. And they can only count on Republicans, not Democrats, to advance their moral issues. So it's not really amazing.

[Joe Daddy]

Let's not re-write history.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123540074568747921.html

The UAW caved to major concessions at Ford.

Have you ever considered reading these articles before you post them Kerry? You just made my point that GM management is incompetent.

Ford Motor Co. and the United Auto Workers union agreed to change the way the company funds retiree health-care benefits, easing Ford's strained finances and putting pressure on General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC to secure similar concessions.

Same union. Same agreements Kerry. Furthermore, Ford decided to go ahead and do the right thing by its workers and negotiate, rather than waiting for GM to go bankrupt, which would have helped Ford get even more concessions from UAW:

Some restructuring experts also questioned the timing of the Ford-UAW deal, arguing that Ford might have been able to exact better terms if it had waited for one of its weaker rivals to go first, or go bust.

"In bankruptcy, the treatment of the union contracts would be much harder on the union and Ford could benefit from that, arguing they need the same concessions," said Jim Decker, who heads the restructuring unit at the New York investment banking firm Morgan Joseph & Co.

Still, the new agreement is seen as a victory for Ford, which hasn't sought federal bailout loans but seized a chance to improve its labor agreements on its own terms. Ford also would be free to seek additional concessions from the UAW if GM and Chrysler -- which must secure concessions to comply with terms of their government bailout loans -- get better deals or file for bankruptcy.

That was pretty stupid Kerry. You showed your ignorance yet again.

It's all about N-E-G-O-T-I-A-T-I-O-N. It's a two-way street Kerry. The UAW and Ford worked together, and Ford demonstrated COMPETENT management, whereas GM did not.

Better luck next time.