Firefighters Union and MAPS 3 - the next chapter?

[barnold]

I hear what you're saying MGE1977. What the mayor did was he went to voters making a pledge on use of the money even though he did not have a council vote or a public discussion with the council on such an action. He did this again when it comes to paying $30 million to OG&E for land on a site he prefers for a new convention center. The folks with OKC Grand Prix LLC have said privately they also were told their deal would go through - even though there had been no council debate or public discussion about the $6.9 million needed up front for the course infrastructure.
Now, that having been said ... with a mailer like this, how does the fire union expect anyone to listen to their message or enter into a dialogue if they're refusing to elaborate on their claims? When I covered City Hall, the union leadership was always responsive to even the harshest questioning - something that was appreciated by reporters.

Steve- I know you probably have a copy of the mailer, but if you don't I'll gladly get you one. Name one part of it that isn't true by the Mayor and the other politicians own words. I agree with you that they went out on a limb making promises they never intended to keep or figured they wouldn't be held accountable for in the end, but that's the life of a politician. As to B. Brus, good luck calling the hall an hour before your deadline and demanding a quote from any agency. I would say to him plan ahead next time, because his emergency of a story deadline doesn't constitute a deadline on the locals part. People have jobs to do and lives to lead and it doesn't revolve around him or his deadline. When the media starts reporting both sides of a story and is impartial then they will get more co-operation. As Mark used to say, don't give em' S#@$ unless they are willing to work with you and not directly against you. We all like to see both sides of the story no matter which side your standing on, but keep peeing down my leg and telling me it's really raining isn't going to fly anymore.

LordGerald- you're not worth my response the majority of the time but just to let you know "I'm still here".

Bluedog & Rover- Ever since the M3 campaign I've had the pleasure to speak with hundreds of hard working residents of Okc and they are very unhappy with how things have been going with Police, Fire and the city management in general. Nothing scientific, just general inquiries and education of the public as to how their city is being run. I've come to find out that while some on this site scream and holler loudly, call those with differing opinions names and try to belittle others that don't agree with them; they are the [COLOR="rgb(0, 0, 0)"]minority[/COLOR] and not the majority. As we will top over 80,000 incidents this year, that is 80,000 contacts with the general public we get to make a positive influence on.

[barnold]

Kerry,
Evidently Tommy Boy isn't the only one with lots of spare time....love the quote though. I prefer the scene with "Bees, Bees, for the love of God save yourself."

[Mikemarsh51]

Barnold, the ignore button is awesome. I have no idea what several of the Douche bags on here have said, I only know they are still chirping.

[Steve]

Geez...
I don't have a copy of the flier. Can you email me a pdf of it?

[barnold]

Sorry steve, don't have a pdf version with me but you are free to drop by the hall tomorrow or Ill see if if can get you a copy soon. Might be able to scan it in tomm.

[Steve]

Tomorrow is pretty loaded down, schedule wise. Would like to meet you in person at some point (if we haven't met already). Can you mail to me? Send it to me at the paper - PO Box 25125, OKC, 73125. As you know I don't cover your world anymore, but I'm still intrigued

[Larry OKC]

Guarantee?

LOL. Are you trying to say that OKC voters were sold a box full of "guaranteed" excrement?

But yes, it was promised that positions would be added, that none would be cut and they even used the word "guaranteed"

Cornett held a press conference Nov. 12 to announce a use tax would be put into effect upon passage of MAPS 3, with the funds dedicated to public safety. Some would be used to hire 20 police officers, Oklahoma County District Attorney David Prater said.

“Traditionally, we wait until after passage, but we are seeing the confusion the unions are causing over MAPS by claiming passage would create public safety issues,” Cornett said. “But I think it’s the opposite, and we will have public safety issues if MAPS 3 doesn’t pass.”

http://www.okc.gov/news/2009_11/Impa...ic_Safety.html
Mayor, District Attorney, Councilman address impact of MAPS on public safety (11/12/09)

Flanked by the County’s top prosecutor and a former fire chief, Oklahoma City Mayor Mick Cornett today addressed the past impact that MAPS has had on public safety, and discussed a proposal to continue the City’s long-standing tradition of supporting public safety by committing the use tax created by MAPS 3 to police and fire protection.

If MAPS 3 passes on December 8, this commitment could mean that the community will immediately benefit from the addition of new police officers and firefighters, in addition to protecting current public safety positions. The practice of supporting public safety with a MAPS use tax began in 2001 with the passage of MAPS for Kids.
...
“We believe the use tax could add new police officers and firefighters, while also protecting current positions,” said Mayor Cornett. “In a time that cities across the nation and in Oklahoma are laying off public safety officers, we’re grateful to have this opportunity. But that option goes away without passage of MAPS 3.”

From that same news conference, Mr. Prater said:

“It will assure us that through the rest of this fiscal year and next fiscal year we will see no cuts of police officers. Period. No matter what we experience in our sales tax revenue shortfalls.”

http://www.newsok.com/maps-3-use-tax...adlines_widget
MAPS 3 use tax to fund safety in Oklahoma City (11/13/09)

Oklahoma City officials on Thursday announced plans to use MAPS 3-related revenue for public safety if voters approve the package next month.
...
“I can assure you that if MAPS does not pass, our public safety issues multiply,” Mayor Mick Cornett said at a news conference called in response to union opposition to MAPS 3.

Cornett said if MAPS 3 passes, the city will give MAPS 3 use tax revenue to public safety.
...
“The MAPS use tax can be used to help ensure that public safety remains a top priority. We will not have that option if MAPS 3 does not pass,” Cornett said.
...
District Attorney David Prater said he’s convinced the city has a good plan to address the staffing concerns that are at the heart of the unions’ opposition to MAPS 3 and their contract dispute.

Prater, a former police officer, said the use tax plan guarantees no police officers will lose their jobs in the next two years. He also said the plan convinced him to support MAPS 3.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n42094064/
Oklahoma City mayor speaks out about MAPS 3 opposition info (Journal Record, 11/15/09)

Cornett said that if MAPS 3 passes, the city will supplement its public safety departments with use tax revenue.

About $15.9 million of an estimated $60.3 million in use tax collected from the MAPS for Kids issue has already been applied to support public safety on materials such as police cars, firetrucks, police helicopters, technology and fire stations. On $777 million, the use tax is projected to be about $90 million, city officials said.

(Only an unspecified portion of the use tax and only for 2 years)

“We believe the use tax could add new police officers and firefighters, while also protecting current positions,” Cornett said. “In a time that cities across the nation and in Oklahoma are laying off public safety officers, we’re grateful to have this opportunity. But that option goes away without passage of MAPS 3.”

Oklahoma City union contract disputes continue (11/21/09)

“I would anticipate this being for a couple of years until the economy can rebound,” Cornett said. “It’s not a long-term solution, but it can help us ride out the tough period so we don’t have to be like most other municipalities in the country and lay off positions.”
Cornett said the city can begin paying for the positions out of its general fund when the use tax money runs out, assuming tax revenues improve.
Ward 4 Councilman Pete White said the city has only pledged to fund the positions out of the MAPS 3 use tax temporarily. Although Cornett said he intends to keep the positions funded permanently, White said he would never have supported creating the new positions if it was permanent.
...
The offer by the city also guaranteed no police officers or firefighters would be laid off for the next two years — if MAPS 3 passes.

From MAPS 3 campaign commercial (Mayor Cornett speaking):

“A Yes vote for MAPS puts more police and firefighters on the streets. Hundreds of millions of dollars are coming for streets and public safety.”

Yet how much of the Use Tax is actually being utilized? In a video blurb played in between Council playback, apparently from the 2010-11 Budget, approved 6/15/10

Public Safety Positions

51 uniformed positions cut ($5M "value")

$10M in "one time money" used
$7M from the MAPS 3 Use Tax
$3M from fund balances

http://www.okc.gov/council/mayor/sta...010/index.html
Mayor Cornett’s 2010 State of the City address

And compared to other cities, we are still in an enviable position. In good times, we have handled our money conservatively. Early last year, at seemingly the first sign of trouble, our City Manager instituted a hiring freeze. Now, with the passage of MAPS 3, and accompanying “use tax,” we are in a position to buffer any shortfall, protect public safety, and actually increase the number of officers and firefighters on the street.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../?tag=rel.res2
Mayor’s use of pronouns clouds OKC tax revenue woes (Journal Record, 1/14/10)

“We’ve committed to expanding the size of the (emergency services) force and using the use tax to do so,” Cornett said. “It’s a verbal commitment, but nonetheless it’s one I intend for us to stand behind.”

And yet when asked to elaborate on whether he thinks he’s got the full council’s support, Cornett said, “I don’t want to speak for them.”

So who is the “we” that promised the hires? Cornett said, “The mayor and council. But it doesn’t take nine.”
...
White said that if the pro-MAPS 3 campaign group promised hirings, then they should pay for those jobs.
...
Cornett said that he expects a unanimous vote by council members to support using the use tax to hire more police and firefighters.

Chamber of Commerce was asked if they were going to make sure the promises of the campaign were kept. The denied any responsibility for the campaign, saying they were only responsible for making sure MAPS passed. Apparently with no regard to truthfulness (as evidenced by the blatant spin, half-truths and in some cases out right lies of the campaign flyers and the Chamber paid for “MAPS Facts website”).

[andy157]

LOL. Are you trying to say that OKC voters were sold a box full of "guaranteed" excrement?

But yes, it was promised that positions would be added, that none would be cut and they even used the word "guaranteed"



http://www.okc.gov/news/2009_11/Impa...ic_Safety.html
Mayor, District Attorney, Councilman address impact of MAPS on public safety (11/12/09)


From that same news conference, Mr. Prater said:


http://www.newsok.com/maps-3-use-tax...adlines_widget
MAPS 3 use tax to fund safety in Oklahoma City (11/13/09)



http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n42094064/
Oklahoma City mayor speaks out about MAPS 3 opposition info (Journal Record, 11/15/09)



(Only an unspecified portion of the use tax and only for 2 years)




Oklahoma City union contract disputes continue (11/21/09)



From MAPS 3 campaign commercial (Mayor Cornett speaking):


Yet how much of the Use Tax is actually being utilized? In a video blurb played in between Council playback, apparently from the 2010-11 Budget, approved 6/15/10




http://www.okc.gov/council/mayor/sta...010/index.html
Mayor Cornett’s 2010 State of the City address



http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../?tag=rel.res2
Mayor’s use of pronouns clouds OKC tax revenue woes (Journal Record, 1/14/10)


Chamber of Commerce was asked if they were going to make sure the promises of the campaign were kept. The denied any responsibility for the campaign, saying they were only responsible for making sure MAPS passed. Apparently with no regard to truthfulness (as evidenced by the blatant spin, half-truths and in some cases out right lies of the campaign flyers and the Chamber paid for “MAPS Facts website”).

Yet the Firefighters and Police Officers are still considered the bad guys/gals by many.

[andy157]

The unions seriously squandered their credibility by putting it all on the line and showing they were completely anemic when it came to influencing public opinion. The MAPS 3 numbers were better than the MAPS 1 numbers for the yes side. So I guess the strategy now is to go double or nothing? Or something like that? Why not just be team players and work for the betterment of the whole city than their own respective fiefdoms?

Were we not team players when we gave the City 25K for M4K, 5K for the 2000 G.O. Bond election, rolled our contracts after 4/19/95, 5/3/99? How about the year 2 swimming pools were to be closed and we gave the City 10k so both could be opened and were? I guess those don't count?

[Midtowner]

Were we not team players when we gave the City 25K for M4K, 5K for the 2000 G.O. Bond election, rolled our contracts after 4/19/95, 5/3/99? How about the year 2 swimming pools were to be closed and we gave the City 10k so both could be opened and were? I guess those don't count?

So you were team players 10-11 years ago. Police and fire were not part of Maps III. They fought a deceptive, dirty campaign, just as dirty as you accuse the other side of fighting. Police and fire lost. In doing so, they have shown the city that as a force trying to convince the public that the city's wrong, police and fire are not powerful enough to really get anything done.

What needs to happen is we need to have another quarter-cent sales tax allocated to emergency services. Why not campaign for that instead of trying to rob public works?

[bombermwc]

Becuase they want that public attention rather than to problem solve.

[CaseyCornett]

I'm still waiting to see a sourced document that claims "the politicians" claimed that by Sept 1, 2010 the use tax would be used for more public safety...

Maps 3 was only 5 months into its 92-month "fundraising" effort and the unions decide to send out a mailer claiming everyone lied. sheesh.

[Midtowner]

http://www.okcommerce.gov/Site-Selec...Approve-MAPS-3

That said, using the Use Tax portion to hire new employees is fiscally irresponsible. New employees should be funded by permanent funding sources rather than 92-month temporary taxes. I'd have no issue with using the Use Tax portion to upgrade police and fire infrastructure and equipment, but to hire new employees? There needs to be a permanent source for that money. Not some fluctuating tax with an expiration date on it.

[andy157]

So you were team players 10-11 years ago. Police and fire were not part of Maps III. They fought a deceptive, dirty campaign, just as dirty as you accuse the other side of fighting. Police and fire lost. In doing so, they have shown the city that as a force trying to convince the public that the city's wrong, police and fire are not powerful enough to really get anything done.

What needs to happen is we need to have another quarter-cent sales tax allocated to emergency services. Why not campaign for that instead of trying to rob public works?

The very thing (loss of manpower)they said would happen, happened, how is that being deceptive.

I agree with you, another 1/4 of a cent would be nice. The P & F have talk to the City about doing that very thing. However , City leaders were not interested, for a couple of reasons. One, they don't like the concept of dedicated taxes, two, funny you mentioned robbing public works.

[andy157]

I'm still waiting to see a sourced document that claims "the politicians" claimed that by Sept 1, 2010 the use tax would be used for more public safety...

Maps 3 was only 5 months into its 92-month "fundraising" effort and the unions decide to send out a mailer claiming everyone lied. sheesh.

Not everyone

[Wambo36]

I'm still waiting to see a sourced document that claims "the politicians" claimed that by Sept 1, 2010 the use tax would be used for more public safety...

Maps 3 was only 5 months into its 92-month "fundraising" effort and the unions decide to send out a mailer claiming everyone lied. sheesh.

Have you read the flyer yet? if so, please point out anything that's not factual. Anywhere your dad was misquoted or his statements taken out of context? You see that's the thing about todays media, even if they don't want to hold your feet to the fire, the recorded statements are out there for those who do. I have to agree with Andy, it doesn't say everyone lied, it's pretty specific.
If you can tell me what else he meant when he said that passing the vote would insure no loss of positions in public safety, that might help.

[CaseyCornett]

Wambo, the point is things take time. What they said would happen, will happen. This is like sending out a flyer trying to outrage the public because the city leaders also claimed that a convention center will be built and senior centers will be built and they haven't been built yet...so I guess they lied. This is ridiculous.

The flyer makes claims to mislead the public into thinking the use-tax money went elsewhere and not to public safety. Ok, where did it go then? How much did the use-tax generate?? We don't know yet...why don't we know? Because we are only 5 months into a 92-month process.

(Come to think of it, we were also promised a 'central park' and they didn't build it in the past 5 months...I guess they lied. I'm angry. I should make a flyer.)

[Wambo36]

Wambo, the point is things take time. What they said would happen, will happen. This is like sending out a flyer trying to outrage the public because the city leaders also claimed that a convention center will be built and senior centers will be built and they haven't been built yet...so I guess they lied. This is ridiculous.

The flyer makes claims to mislead the public into thinking the use-tax money went elsewhere and not to public safety. Ok, where did it go then? How much did the use-tax generate?? We don't know yet...why don't we know? Because we are only 5 months into a 92-month process.

(Come to think of it, we were also promised a 'central park' and they didn't build it in the past 5 months...I guess they lied. I'm angry. I should make a flyer.)

Maybe you can explain the statement I asked you about. Why would he say it would prevent the loss of positions when the city manager was already demanding those position cuts from the dept. heads? I understand the wait and see aspect of the use tax fund, but that's not what he said, is it? He said that passing the measure would not only mean more manpower in the future but guarantee no loss of positions now. That's not exactly how it went down was it? Like I said, show me where he has been misquoted or accept the facts.

[barnold]

Casey,

Try and spin it how you like, the simple truth is in the staffing levels. Pre-maps 3 the firefighters had 948 positions. Mayor promises that a vote for M3 will actually add 10 more FF positions which would bring us to 958. M3 passes.

2010-2011 budget is approved after M3 is passed. 29 firefighters positions are immediately cut. Even if he were to add 10 positions back at the beginning of the year it wouldn't bring us up to the pre M3 staffing levels. That's either some really bad math on his part or a bold faced LIE. So which is it? A liar or an incompetent Mayor that didn't have the approval of the council when he went on TV every 30 minutes and promised the statement of adding personnel to PS?

[kevinpate]

Fair or not, I think it's somewhat clear that the populace heard the pro MAPs side and the Not this MAPs side, and the majority decided Yes, This Maps.
They may have wanted more, they may not have. Either way, the pro side may carried the day in December 2009.

Again, Fair or Completely Unfair, and perhaps to be discovered as being to the detriment of the citizens en masse, the majority of those who cared enough to bother to case a vote went for the growth, not for the protection.

It ought to be a tad telling that, nearly ten months later, the only folks truly beating the 'Hey it was unfair, and now you know, so now what' drum are some of the PS folks.

I think Steve and some others have suggested, numerous times, there's probably a better and more effective drum to beat if the PS folks want John and Jane Q to march to a different beat. I hope the PS folks find it.

[Steve]

I'm in the middle here: I think I've raised enough questions and challenged some assumptions to annoy both sides. I'm hoping those who are on the public safety side remember my days covering them and will know I'm not out to get them - this is just what I do. As for Mayor Mick - I think he's got a good grasp on who I am and how I do things.

[Larry OKC]

I'm still waiting to see a sourced document that claims "the politicians" claimed that by Sept 1, 2010 the use tax would be used for more public safety...

Maps 3 was only 5 months into its 92-month "fundraising" effort and the unions decide to send out a mailer claiming everyone lied. sheesh.

Casey, please read my post #32, it was mentioned more than once...

[andy157]

I'm in the middle here: I think I've raised enough questions and challenged some assumptions to annoy both sides. I'm hoping those who are on the public safety side remember my days covering them and will know I'm not out to get them - this is just what I do. As for Mayor Mick - I think he's got a good grasp on who I am and how I do things.

I'll vouch for you.

[Steve]

Thanks sir! Barnold, I hope we can meet in person soon.

[metro]

Next chapter? There is none until the union folks quit shooting themselves in the foot.