Burying 235 Between I40 and I44?

[bombermwc]

For those of you that think it should be removed, what exactly would you propose we do with the 100K+ people that use it as a main artery through the middle of OKC? It's the main connector between south and north. We don't exactly have a transportation system that could absorb that traffic. If anything, the southern end near I-40 needs to be expanded to correct completely stupid lane merging/shuffling.

There aren't any "alternatives" either. I-35 is close at the I-40 side, but it's much further away at the 44 side. Not to mention then you're just pushing traffic over to a different road. You'd split between 44 (which is already far exceeding capacity) and 35 which isn't built to handle any more than it is now...with another stupid 35S flow.

I'm not the least bit worried that it will ever go away, but I don't really see how it's acting as a barrier. Homes were taken out for the construction, not businesses...almost exclusively. It killed a thriving African American community. If you take the highway out now, what you'll find is a bunch of wealthy (mostly older white) folks moving into the upscale town homes and lofts that will be built there. Yeah, don't think that would piss me off if I were a former resident at allll....sarcasm.

If you bury it, you can't put it deep enough in Oklahoma for it to allow anything to be built on top of it. So as Cuatro's picture showed, yeah you'll get some green space, but you have to cut off access to/from the road to claim back room on either side from the ramps. But if you look at the area just north of the image from JTF, you'll see a MUCH different use of space. The elevated sections have buildings right up to the columns. ODOT did a much better job of preserving things....but again, it's commercial space. For some reason they deemed it more important to maintain than the residential space. It's actually a quite dense construction with the rail yard, drainage system (that wasn't there before), etc. If you don't believe me, just go check out a google map of today. The image above is the absolute "worst case" section of the highway. The rail line serves as MUCH more of a barrier than the highway. OSSM exists in that same section BECAUSE of the highway "clearing" work. And freeing up that residential space is actually part of what's been instrumental in building the Health Complex. Can't have it both ways folks.

[Just the facts]

For those of you that think it should be removed, what exactly would you propose we do with the 100K+ people that use it as a main artery through the middle of OKC? It's the main connector between south and north. We don't exactly have a transportation system that could absorb that traffic. If anything, the southern end near I-40 needs to be expanded to correct completely stupid lane merging/shuffling.

Studies in cities after cities that have removed urban freeways shows that all the people who are using the road STOP driving. Those car trips don't go anywhere - they simply evaporate. This is the magic of induced demand. Build a road and people drive, remove the road and people stop driving. Just look at the 95,000 cars a day ODOT says will use the new OKC boulevard. Where are those 95,000 cars today? Answer, they don't exist and they won't exist unless the road is built. There is a common misconception that roads are widened in a response to demand, but really it is the other way around - demand increase in response to increased capacity.

[OKCisOK4me]

Studies in cities after cities that have removed urban freeways shows that all the people who are using the road STOP driving. Those car trips don't go anywhere - they simply evaporate. This is the magic of induced demand. Build a road and people drive, remove the road and people stop driving. Just look at the 95,000 cars a day ODOT says will use the new OKC boulevard. Where are those 95,000 cars today? Answer, they don't exist and they won't exist unless the road is built. There is a common misconception that roads are widened in a response to demand, but really it is the other way around - demand increase in response to increased capacity.

Ok, but the problem is, this is Oklahoma City, not all those cities where those urban studies were created. OKC metro area is an auto culture.

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[Just the facts]

Ok, but the problem is, this is Oklahoma City, not all those cities where those urban studies were created. OKC metro area is an auto culture.

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6 Freeway Removals That Changed Their Cities Forever

This isn't an auto culture? You are half right - it isn't an auto culture NOW. If Dallas succeeds in removing I-345 I wonder how many people in OKC will change their position on I-235.

Before


After

[AP]

Ok, but the problem is, this is Oklahoma City, not all those cities where those urban studies were created. OKC metro area is an auto culture.

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Right. It's impossible to compare OKC to other cities because we are a complete anomaly. No city has ever been like us and no city ever will be. Studies don't apply to us because we're ~*different*~

[OKCisOK4me]

That before pic isn't Dallas, there's mountains off in the distance. Try again!

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[AP]

That before pic isn't Dallas, there's mountains off in the distance. Try again!

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Who said Dallas? Those pictures are from China, bub.

[Geographer]

*Korea

[OKCisOK4me]

Who said Dallas? Those pictures are from China, bub.

He said and I quote "if Dallas succeeds in removing I345...". I assumed before and after pics were of said Dallas freeway.

Missed ya last night at the FBT get together. Out of town on business?

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[AP]

He said and I quote "if Dallas succeeds in removing I345...". I assumed before and after pics were of said Dallas freeway.

It's all good. I called it China when it's actually Korea.

[OKCisOK4me]

Welcome neo to the OklahomaCityTalk forum!

I'm glad you found us and hope you will take the opportunity to spread the word. We appreciate any suggestions you may have good or bad.

Take Care,

OKTALK

I thought it looked funny ;-)

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[betts]

Ok, but the problem is, this is Oklahoma City, not all those cities where those urban studies were created. OKC metro area is an auto culture.

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OKC metro has been a car culture, but that is changing. As has been noted here before, Millenials aren't as interested in driving and in fact, look for ways to give it up. I have 4 children who are Millenials, one son-in-law and two significant others. Between the 7 of them there are 3 cars. And that's not because we chose not to buy them cars. They actually owned them and sold them and were thrilled to do so. Times are changing, even in Oklahoma City. As we have more mass transit options available, I think you'll find more and more people either choosing not to own cars or looking for places to live and recreate where they can do minimal driving. It's time to change the way we think about roads and transit.

[Just the facts]

He said and I quote "if Dallas succeeds in removing I345...". I assumed before and after pics were of said Dallas freeway.

Missed ya last night at the FBT get together. Out of town on business?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5

Sorry for the confusion. The picture were from South Korea. Property owners in Dallas are trying to get I-345 removed.

Homepage - A New Dallas :: A New Dallas

[OKCisOK4me]

OKC metro has been a car culture, but that is changing. As has been noted here before, Millenials aren't as interested in driving and in fact, look for ways to give it up. I have 4 children who are Millenials, one son-in-law and two significant others. Between the 7 of them there are 3 cars. And that's not because we chose not to buy them cars. They actually owned them and sold them and were thrilled to do so. Times are changing, even in Oklahoma City. As we have more mass transit options available, I think you'll find more and more people either choosing not to own cars or looking for places to live and recreate where they can do minimal driving. It's time to change the way we think about roads and transit.

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, I'm between those generations. While knowing I need that vehicle to travel out into the field, when I do come home (preferably Downtown OKC), I want to not have to use it while home.

I hung out with your son last night and he's a cool customer. ;-)

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[venture]

Looking realistically at this, in order to move OKC away from auto focuses to other forms of transportation will require doing things in steps. We would absolutely have it to have commuter/light rail deployed. I could see tearing out 235 only in the case where new rail lines could be put down along its footprint to provide a much more direct rail routing from Edmond. We would obviously need park and ride lots along it to start and slowly phase them out over time.

Will rail still lagging behind, removing 235 just simply won't be a real option for awhile. If at all...the state capitol folks probably wouldn't like to give their highway up.

[AP]

I thought it looked funny ;-)

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Where did this quote come from?

[warreng88]

In theory, how would this happen? Since 235 is only three lanes across, would they put everything to one side with no exiting up to 10th street, demolish one side, dig down to build the highway, then switch everything over to do the same thing on the other side? And when all that is finished, they would still need to basically add a roof overhead with the ability to hold millions of pounds of homes/parks, etc above. Yeah, I don't think people would think too kindly of that happening when all we hear about is how bad all the other roads are in the city and then you are spending a couple of billion on burying something that was perfectly fine where it was for some development.

[Just the facts]

Looking realistically at this, in order to move OKC away from auto focuses to other forms of transportation will require doing things in steps. We would absolutely have it to have commuter/light rail deployed. I could see tearing out 235 only in the case where new rail lines could be put down along its footprint to provide a much more direct rail routing from Edmond. We would obviously need park and ride lots along it to start and slowly phase them out over time.

Will rail still lagging behind, removing 235 just simply won't be a real option for awhile. If at all...the state capitol folks probably wouldn't like to give their highway up.

The only proposal is to remove I-235 when its life expectancy runs out. No one wants to remove it now, but at some point it is going to have to be replaced, so instead of replacing it why not start building OKC for the future generations instead of the past generations? Commuter rail from Norman to Edmond will be in place long before I-235 needs replacement. If people living in Edmond need to go downtown post 235 they can take the train - or drive on a city street from I-44 to downtown.

[OKCisOK4me]

Where did this quote come from?

JTF said it about 7 posts back.

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[AP]

JTF said it about 7 posts back.

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Unless I'm missing something this is your quote.

[Of Sound Mind]

The only proposal is to remove I-235 when its life expectancy runs out. No one wants to remove it now, but at some point it is going to have to be replaced, so instead of replacing it why not start building OKC for the future generations instead of the past generations? Commuter rail from Norman to Edmond will be in place long before I-235 needs replacement. If people living in Edmond need to go downtown post 235 they can take the train - or drive on a city street from I-44 to downtown.

Whatever it is you're smoking, you need to share...

[Just the facts]

Are you doubting how soon commuter rail will be in place or that people are incapable of driving on a city street?

[Richard at Remax]

commuter rail and 235 can coexist together

[DavidD_NorthOKC]

The only proposal is to remove I-235 when its life expectancy runs out. No one wants to remove it now, but at some point it is going to have to be replaced, so instead of replacing it why not start building OKC for the future generations instead of the past generations?

One need only look at the Boulevard discussion to see how it will probably end. OKC is blowing a once in a generation chance to fundamentally change the course of its development yet they are placing building a singular escape route to the suburbs over every other consideration. But the turd will be nice and shiny.

[Just the facts]

One need only look at the Boulevard discussion to see how it will probably end. OKC is blowing a once in a generation chance to fundamentally change the course of its development yet they are placing building a singular escape route to the suburbs over every other consideration. But the turd will be nice and shiny.

That is why we need to be out in front on I-235. Instead of letting ODOT set the agenda we need to be setting the agenda. Let ODOT pick their own battles. Everyone knows I-235 will need to be replaced at some point so lets plan for that now instead of just responding to ODOTs plans after the fact.