Should City look at other options for the Convention Center?

[andy157]

I apoligize for under estimating your vast knowledge of how the City of OKC's budget works, can you ever forgive me. What would we ever do without your knowledge and input. (other then get correct facts)

You really are clueless, and all this time I thought it was just an act. What does having, or not having knowledge of how the Citys budget works have to do with the City not spending dedicated tax revenue in accordance with the ballot?

[rcjunkie]

You really are clueless, and all this time I thought it was just an act. What does having, or not having knowledge of how the City's budget works have to do with the City not spending dedicated tax revenue in accordance with the ballot?

I so apologize Sir Andy, but it's apparent that I'm no longer qualified to communicate with someone that's has so much more knowledgeable and is more intelligent then I, from now on, I'll refrain from commenting. Good Day and Good Life my friend.

[metro]

Maybe he should work for the police and fire unions with his superior knowledge

[rcjunkie]

Maybe he should work for the police and fire unions with his superior knowledge

Not me, after hearing all of the whining and complaing. The equipment is falling apart, they never get anything as promised, they are over worked and under paid, why would anyone want to work there.

[sgray]

I so apologize Sir Andy, but it's apparent that I'm no longer qualified to communicate with someone that's has so much more knowledgeable and is more intelligent then I, from now on, I'll refrain from commenting. Good Day and Good Life my friend.

This is retarded. On posts like this, please DO refrain from commenting.


My two cents is that the convention center should remain at the bottom of the project list until we know what is going to give us the best return on our investment. As others have pointed out, it's a competitive market out there. Other cities have lots of attractions, mass-transit linkage to/from the airport, etc. Before we just go and build a convention center, we should 1) determine what else besides the convention center itself is needed, and 2) have a gameplan in-place to compete with these other cities.

[metro]

sgray, I think the question you are missing or others are failing to ask is that what benefits me vs. what benefits the city more. Many don't realize the convention center pays for itself fairly quickly by all the out of state tax revenue generated, not to mention all the new exposure of our city, that could lead to further out of state investments and expenditures that are hard to directly track, however it is the least sexiest of all to locals who very rarely use it, as that's not what they are geared to be.

[sgray]

sgray, I think the question you are missing or others are failing to ask is that what benefits me vs. what benefits the city more. Many don't realize the convention center pays for itself fairly quickly by all the out of state tax revenue generated, not to mention all the new exposure of our city, that could lead to further out of state investments and expenditures that are hard to directly track, however it is the least sexiest of all to locals who very rarely use it, as that's not what they are geared to be.

I don't think there is a dividing line between benefiting me and benefiting the city. If there is an influx of visitors spending money here, it will benefit me as well, no doubt.

But you've got to get conventions & people into the place to begin with. What are Cox's current numbers compared to similar spaces in similar markets? Given a new convention center, what is the plan to get conventions into the place and attract visitors? Without a plan, how do we keep from having an empty convention center all the time.

One thing is very true. Other cities, some mentioned here, are very skilled in selling their product and they are not opposed to undercutting us to keep the business in their city.

[okclee]

If anyone will do the "undercutting" it would be Okc.

The new convention center when finished will be debt free. Just like all of our MAPS project, they are paid for when completed. This is the beauty of MAPS, quality projects and improvement with no debt.

Okc will be very aggressive in selling the new convention center.

[kevinpate]

If anyone will do the "undercutting" it would be Okc.

The new convention center when finished will be debt free. Just like all of our MAPS project, they are paid for when completed. This is the beauty of MAPS, quality projects and improvement with no debt.

Okc will be very aggressive in selling the new convention center.

Well, largely debt free. However, it may not be entirely debt free. The city can incur debt and sell bonds in order to establish whatever capital improvement projects they utlimately approve under M3

[sgray]

If anyone will do the "undercutting" it would be Okc.

This is a bold statement...from a city that has little experience in hosting larger conventions. How do you know that OKC would be the best proposal? What if a competing city offers to pay a convention to come to town and they have a kickass transit system and TONS of 24/7 entertainment, which we do not have? What if another city offers to pay a convention a million bucks so they can make an expected two million profit on the revenue from the visitors?

Perhaps there is more to the "undercutting" than just giving away the space for free or cheap.

[okclee]

I don't know.

I do know Okc does a good job with the Cox center in attracting customers. I have to assume Okc will do a better job with better facilities.

[metro]

This is a bold statement...from a city that has little experience in hosting larger conventions. How do you know that OKC would be the best proposal? What if a competing city offers to pay a convention to come to town and they have a kickass transit system and TONS of 24/7 entertainment, which we do not have? What if another city offers to pay a convention a million bucks so they can make an expected two million profit on the revenue from the visitors?

Perhaps there is more to the "undercutting" than just giving away the space for free or cheap.

What if the world ends in 2012? What if the tomato shortage continues and Wendy's has to permanently not offer tomato's on their hamburgers...what will we do? I think our track record speaks for itself and we have to plan with the facts and knowledge we do have.

[sgray]

What if the world ends in 2012? What if the tomato shortage continues and Wendy's has to permanently not offer tomato's on their hamburgers...what will we do? I think our track record speaks for itself and we have to plan with the facts and knowledge we do have.

Metro, you are starting to follow the path of rcjunkie here. We have enough people selling crazy around here, so let's leave that stuff out of the discussion.

My point was/is that we need to know our competitors and be prepared if we want to win some conventions. This is valid argument on the topic. You speak of a track record. May I ask what larger conventions we've pulled from other competing cities? You speak of planning on facts and knowledge we do have. What research on this has been done? Is there a planning team already assigned to this?

These are valid questions on the topic of the thread. The end of the world and Wendy's hamburgers are not.

[metro]

No, I think we have a good track record for what we do have, our convention center isn't even a real convention center, just the sign says it is. What all is being sold as crazy in OKC? We landed the national convention of mayors coming next month which is a HUGE land. We haven't landed major conventions, because we didn't have the hotels or facilities (ie real convention center) to host a real convention.

[rcjunkie]

Metro, you are starting to follow the path of rcjunkie here. We have enough people selling crazy around here, so let's leave that stuff out of the discussion.
My point was/is that we need to know our competitors and be prepared if we want to win some conventions. This is valid argument on the topic. You speak of a track record. May I ask what larger conventions we've pulled from other competing cities? You speak of planning on facts and knowledge we do have. What research on this has been done? Is there a planning team already assigned to this?

These are valid questions on the topic of the thread. The end of the world and Wendy's hamburgers are not.

Nice how you single me out when all I was doing is replying to someones posting ,what station do you work at.

[Northsider]

it seems like the whole build it and they will come method works..

look at all the "smart" locals that were agianst the first maps and after things were completed except for the Main attraction which was the ford Center they said scrap the plans and end the tax we will never use this arena to its full potential

well we all know how that worked out !!!!!!!!

[Laramie]

The convention center and modern street car system should be the first two projects we need to build (address).

Why?

The Convention Center will bring in tourist dollars and hotel construction immediately which will have the greatest economic impact.

The Modern Street Car system will further enhance the quality-of-life image profiles which will propell OKC in competition for future convention bookings.

[lonestarstatesux]

Based on all these ideas, I'd like to see the new convention center built. At first, I was down with the expansion idea we started with , but the more I think about it - I'd like to see a redone COX and a new main convention center without an arena.

How about keeping the Cox arena, but revamping much of the space for leasing out? I wonder if much of the exterior on the east and west could be redone to allow street access. The Reno facade could remain, allow entry to the arena, but inside have retail, business space? I would just like to see the space used rather than torn down. And I'm sure than businesses in there wouldn't mind all the foot traffic going on before/after/during arena events.

[Larry OKC]

I agree completely that the convention center should be one of the 1st things built (rather than one of the last, the Mayor's preferred way) for many of the reasons given. Primarily for the economic benefit achieved (if the Chambers numbers can be believed). The C.C. was THE economic engine of the various MAPS 3 proposed projects (according to the campaign materials). We are already losing business, much less the business lost in the next 10 years. Better to get that economic engine up and running sooner rather than later, which in turn will increase revenues coming in for the other MAPS 3 projects.

However there are some inherent problems with doing it first...

1) The $280M is the most expensive item in MAPS 3 and more than all of the the original MAPS projects combined (as sold to voters, “Major-league status sought voters to decide on $237.6 million plan” (Oklahoman, 11/14/93). Given the $100M/year average estimate on the sales tax revenue, that means nearly 3 years before the entire amount will be raised. This would also push back the time table of the remaining projects. (No, you don't have to wait until the entire amount for the finished project is in hand before design work etc can begin).

2) In order to meet its fullest potential, the Park ($130M = 1.3 years of tax) and the Streetcars ($130M = another 1.3 years of tax) need to be completed at the same time. Unlike previous MAPS, the projects in this one are more interdependent.

The Park is critical because that is the entry way into the proposed C.C. site. Having out of state visitors driving thru blighted land is not the most favorable impression (probably reinforce some of the negative perceptions). The Mayor wants the Park/Boulevard 1st and the unfunded Blvd cant go up until the new I-40 is open (2012+) and the old Crosstown is torn down. Putting the Park/Boulevard into 2014+ range.

The Streetcars are obviously needed to help get those people around (think it was said that if ordered today, the Streetcars are something like 3 years away).

Total tax time needed for these 3 interdependent projects is 5+ years.

3) Only way around it is to go into more bond debt which is fully authorized in the Ballot/Ordinance. I said more bond debt because around $6M was already issued to buy property in the Park area well BEFORE MAPS 3 was even put to a vote. The problem with going into even more bond debt is it goes against the whole "we-paid-for-it-debt-free" & it is a "pay-as-you-go-method" (it appears all MAPS incarnations have incurred debt, a couple of articles indicate that we may STILL be paying on 20 year bond debt from the original MAPS). As someone else mentioned, all you have to do is insert the word "primarily" before those phrases and you are fine.

That said, the more bond debt you have, not only does it lesson the whole MAPS philosophy but you end up paying even more than the announced sticker price for the projects. Which means less money for the remaining projects (presuming all remain within budget which is highly unlikely). Depending on the length of the bond and interest rate, the amount can easily double.

[metro]

Why are people so bent on revamping the Cox? I don't get it.

[mugofbeer]

Why are people so bent on revamping the Cox? I don't get it.

metro, I think it's a matter of trying to figure out how to put a still-functional building to its highest and best use without making it a competitor to the Ford Center or to the new convention center. Just as a large number of people are concerned about Sandridge knocking down those historic buildings, do we maintain the Cox Center or do we consider knocking it down and using it for the prime development land it would become? There are a lot of opportunities and alternatives.

[BigD Misey]

Why are people so bent on revamping the Cox? I don't get it.

The CCC is still a useful facility and is owned by the city. But, the occasional convention or sporting event isn't putting it at its best potential.
IE: Right now the Cox Center is an ominous monstrosity to walk around to attend other events at the ford center or during the day downtown. If OKC is going to continue with the core to shore and the gardens are being revamped to bring foot traffic in, I think the CCC should consider improving the west side of the facility. (The east side being next to a main thoroughfare I don’t think is a good idea unless somehow a new transit station were developed there, and I don’t see how that would fit)
Currently, there are 1000's of square feet of space that goes unused for large parts of the year. Could a large section of this space be converted to a retail area for those who would visit the events not only at the CCC, but the Ford Center, the Myriad Gardens and even those who work downtown?
Granted it would take several million to revamp the west side, but renting the space will offset the cost for the construction. Think about it: Most events won’t use but a fraction of the space and when there are no events, the Cox Center makes no money. But, Put in a handful of retail and the CCC (and the City since they own it) make money consistently and the businesses will be supported during the day from downtown patrons and on weekends during the days and nights from Myriad Garden visitors and the events held at the Ford center. And when the park is developed south of the Ford Center, the traffic will likely increase between the park and hotels and downtown businesses. I think the investment would pay off, but, I'm not a developer either.

[Larry OKC]

Not exactly sure what the retail situation is but from most of what I have been reading, there are plenty of retail opportunities all over downtown/bricktown already that are sitting empty. Not sure how adding more retail space into the mix helps matters.

Was down in Bricktown on Mother's Day and was amazed at all of the empty store fronts even along the Canal. The broken windows (in the buildings next to Zios) the canal level bare concrete supports and piles of dirt of those same buildings. This is what it looked like on the canal opening day July 4th weekend how may years ago now?

[megax11]

This city better not lie to me.

I voted YES because I kept hearing on websites, like this one -

Voters Approve MAPS 3 - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |

That on top of a new park (C2S element), a new convention center (C2S element), would be built.

It says so in that article.

I won't trust this city, if they keep ******* with my emotions.

[Larry OKC]

^^^
That is their stated INTENT, but as noted before, there is nothing legally binding them to that intent and the intent can be changed at anytime (see the change of intent concerning the 3 various Use Taxes that were used for the Bass Pro deal). The court ruled in the City's favor and the changing of intent is perfectly legal. We will just have to wait and see.