OG&E Tower

[skanaly]

I hope the new office tower is all glass, and pushed to the street.

I'm sensing sarcasm

[Spartan]

[B]"There's no money for the Stage Center!"

But there's always money for sports, always money in "incentives", there's always money - it's what you choose to spend it on.

Very, very good point.

[betts]

People with enough money to make a difference have to care. We can't hold a bakesale to raise that kind of money.

[Praedura]

I was curious about the actual date for the 90 day limit, but didn't want to have to stare at a calendar and count them up myself... so I used this site:

Calculator: Add to or subtract from a date

Plugging in 7/26/2013 for the start date (when the announcement was made) and adding 90 days yields:

Thursday, October 24, 2013

So that's the outer time frame. Now Rainey Williams promised details within 90 days, so hopefully it will be even before then. But that's the max date we're looking at.

[Teo9969]

I hate to say it, but I know architects who are not as attached to the SC as one would seem to think, so although the AIA got the extension and is the professional association for architects, one can't assume that "every" architect is for saving the SC, especially considering the greater good that may come if it were gone. It's a stereotype. That being said, it is true those that are passionate about saving it will be extremely vocal, others may like to see it preserved, but understand that the building has had more chances than Morris the cat, and the impact of a potential new tower possibly housing a new HQ far outweigh hanging into a controversial building.

The SC is a different animal than say the Gold Dome. From what I gather, the "general public" as well as preservationists and the architectural community has an affinity for the GD for many reasons, so it has been essentially saved twice with the 2nd time coming from free enterprise with a local company stepping up who wants to renovate it and move into the iconic landmark that needs no address. The SC is not even close to that level of recognition because the "general public" has pretty much despised the facility since day 1. Therefore, free enterprise has not stepped up over the last few years. I suppose that could change now that the clock is officially ticking, maybe someone comes in and make Rainey Williams a profitable offer and he sells and turns around and buys another site in which to place this tower, but I highly doubt that will be the case. The SC is only a landmark to a small segment of the community.

Biggest difference between the 2 is not noteriety, it's the address...

[Questor]

It's an interesting contrast, the Gold Dome vs. Stage Center. GD wasn't built by Buckminster Fuller. In fact he had nothing to do with it at all. Someone else created that dome based upon his writings. So that's kind of like me being a big fan of Frank Lloyd Wright (which I am) and paying some random firm to build be a house that looks like one of his. Does that make my house something of historical note worth saving? Really? But maybe people like it, and so then being reminiscent of Wright or Fuller is good enough.

On the other hand we have a building, SC, that was designed and construction overseen by a world renowned architect, one of five who was a student of Wright that is credited with starting the current modern design era. It's been on the cover of Time magazine, it's won architectural awards, and it's so significant that not only is it discussed in architectural textbooks but also it's design plans and a miniature mock up of it are housed at the New York Museum of Modern Art.

Neither building has been particularly well functioning in recent years. Both require a lot of work. And in my gut I think we are about to save the GD again and lose SC. Sell the diamond and shine up the cubic zirconium.... Losing SC is bad enough, but knowing the latter is almost a double punch to the gut.

As for Steve's article this week... You know, I found it a whole lot more under-whelming then I would have thought. Could that have been the point? Back-dooring support for SC? Or perhaps it was an example of rushing a story out without many facts to keep from being scooped. I don't know. Maybe I'll feel better about whatever is replacing SC when I see the big announcement that is coming, whatever that is. Right now the whole thing just makes me sad.

[betts]

Neither building has been particularly well functioning in recent years. Both require a lot of work. And in my gut I think we are about to save the GD again and lose SC. Sell the diamond and shine up the cubic zirconium.... Losing SC is bad enough, but knowing the latter is almost a double punch to the gut.

As for Steve's article this week... You know, I found it a whole lot more under-whelming then I would have thought. Could that have been the point? Back-dooring support for SC? Or perhaps it was an example of rushing a story out without many facts to keep from being scooped. I don't know. Maybe I'll feel better about whatever is replacing SC when I see the big announcement that is coming, whatever that is. Right now the whole thing just makes me sad.

I agree. We have bemoaned all the open land in downtown. Surely there's an unsightly parking lot somewhere in the CBD that would serve as well. Does one hire a world famous architectural firm to build a gem of a spec tower that's 20 stories high. Color me pleasantly surprised if tha happens. If we replace the Stage Center with some mundane short tower done on the cheap we will not have served ourselves and future generations well.

[zookeeper]

I agree. We have bemoaned all the open land in downtown. Surely there's an unsightly parking lot somewhere in the CBD that would serve as well. Does one hire a world famous architectural firm to build a gem of a spec tower that's 20 stories high. Color me pleasantly surprised if tha happens. If we replace the Stage Center with some mundane short tower done on the cheap we will not have served ourselves and future generations well.

Very well said, betts. We are, after all, only temporary stewards of the past & present to pass along to those that come after us. (Sorry if that sounds corny, but it's true.)

[Plutonic Panda]

"There's no money for the Stage Center!"

But there's always money for sports, always money in "incentives", there's always money - it's what you choose to spend it on.

Just take a few minutes and really look at what we're losing. Nobody likes every building, but this is history and something that gave Oklahoma City a different image in the minds of strangers. It's always pointed out by visitors. "You don't expect to see this in Oklahoma!"

Like any art, even architecture, it's love it, or hate it. It should still stand to love or hate. It's known by many worldwide. Taken for granted around here? Absolutely.

There's LOTS of places to build a new tower. On top of Johansen's masterpiece should not be one of them.

Before it lies in a pile of rubble, please, take a few minutes...especially the short 9 minute film with Johansen and a look inside Stage Center.....at least say goodbye.

Iconic Stage Center by John M. Johansen

Saving Johansen’s Stage Center | News | Architectural Record

Stage Center Theater - Preservation OKC

Mummers-Theater_from Johansen Official Site

MUMMERS THEATER

Stage Center, Oklahoma City | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

About the Mummers Theater

A/N Blog . Dispute Could Doom John Johansen?s Iconic Mummers Theater

I actually agree with this now. If a super tall were being built , I would have less sympathy .

[Spartan]

Pete, we should update the info in the article

[G.Walker]

I guess no one else caught this from Steve's chat, but there was a totally different developer back in March that was proposing a new tower, that was probably our 40 story, 700ft tower, but that deal fell through, hence the the delay of announcement with new developer?

Gary T 10:03 a.m. Good morning Steve! Thanks again as always for doing these chats. I would also like to say that I miss your informative posts on okctalk.com. I understand your reasoning for wanting to distant yourself from it considering all the personal attacks you were taking on. I hope to see you on there again in a larger capacity maybe when things calm down a little. Now, a couple of Mystery Tower questions: 1) Since Rainey Williams (the person who bought Stage Center) is also a Director of OGE Enogex GP, LLC, is it safe to say the anchor tenant discussed in the article will either be OGE or the Enogex/Centerpoint entity?


Steve Lackmeyer 10:07 a.m. Thanks Gary. No, it's not safe to assume the tower anchor will be associated with OG&E, Enogex or Centerpoint. It's possible. But as I've said before, there are a lot of missing pieces. Consider what I've told you before; in March a completely different developer was on the verge of getting this contract for the Stage Center property. It was not a reflection on that developer that the deal fell through. He had other tenants lined up, and it is still quite possible he may build a tower elsewhere downtown. In the meantime, let my article sink in - this tower is being built by Rainey Williams, not OG&E, not Enogex, not Centerpoint. Could any mix of these three end up as tenants? Maybe. But don't make any assumptions. As for those who question whether Rainey Williams is just a front, and question his capacity for doing this development, well, you don't know Rainey Williams.

[Spartan]

I think that now, given that what we know is either a not a firm deal, or an insignificant building to justify demolishing the work of a renowned architect. OKC doesnt have much starchitecture. The Stage Center should remain where it is for now. 25 story towers can go on plenty other sites.

[bchris02]

Like I've said before, if the preservationists are able to get this tower project cancelled, I hope the Stage Center is rehabilitated and put to good use. I really want to see this tower but thinking about the Criterion theater I can completely understand the preservationist perspective. However, the last thing I want to see is the Stage Center saved and then left to rot.

[MustangGT]

Agree with Spartan. Unless it is a 50 story tower or more then Stage Center will have to labor on. A 20 or 25 story tower is a waste of the location and the plans of a very shortshighted developer.

[bchris02]

Agree with Spartan. Unless it is a 50 story tower or more then Stage Center will have to labor on. A 20 or 25 story tower is a waste of the location and the plans of a very shortshighted developer.

I wouldn't say 50 stories, but something that would make a serious mark on the skyline. A 20 story tower won't do that. It will be like the Renaissance Hotel built in the '90s.

[G.Walker]

I am pretty sure Mr. Williams knows what he is up against, he seems like a smart man, he stated the development will be "world class", so we will just have to wait and see. Too early to judge anything right now, but it would have helped his case if he had renderings when announcements made.

[pw405]

I am pretty sure Mr. Williams knows what he is up against, he seems like a smart man, he stated the development will be "world class", so we will just have to wait and see. Too early to judge anything right now, but it would have helped his case if he had renderings when announcements made.

Can't help but to think that Rainey is following this thread... I would think he would.... I mean, if I were spending millions on a site/building/demolition, I'd at least want to see what the plebeians thought of my grand plans.

Rainey.... you out there, bro?

[adaniel]

Agree with Spartan. Unless it is a 50 story tower or more then Stage Center will have to labor on. A 20 or 25 story tower is a waste of the location and the plans of a very shortshighted developer.

Labor on and do what? Sit there and collect dust? Flood some more?

I will miss the Stage Center too but it used up its 9 lives a long time ago. Its different than the buildings in, say, Midtown or Film Row, which can be renovated into something that generates income (apartments, restaurants, hotel, etc.) I cannot think of anything that can be done to do the same with this. The children's museum was its last best hope, and even that fell through. Economics do matter.

I guess it can always be a theatre. But I have a few friends that work with one of the theatre productions in town and they hated the place, and according to them nobody in their field really wants to use the SC. Some of that feeling is probably due to the fact they lost half their stuff in the June 2010 floods, but its just wasn't very flexible space compared to other venues in town.

Remember when you are out enjoying your favorite downtown landmark either in OKC or Dallas, NYC, or wherever, something was probably torn down to make room for it. The CBD has surprisingly little land to develop, so this will not be the last time something like this occurs. Its early, but I am not detecting some groundswell of support to save this thing as much as this board indicates. Probably because most people would like to wait and see what the tower will look like before making judgement. If the plans for this building are what they say they are, then I have no problem with it.

Its time to let the Stage Center go.

[Romulack]

I won't miss Stage Center and I look forward to getting rid of it. It's an eyesore. For those who think it's a work of art, well, feel free to go down to the salvage yard and pick up some old pipe, storage containers, and what-not, and build a replica of Stage Center somewhere else, preferably next to a dump so it will fit in nicely with the landscape.

[Plutonic Panda]

Like I've said before, if the preservationists are able to get this tower project cancelled, I hope the Stage Center is rehabilitated and put to good use. I really want to see this tower but thinking about the Criterion theater I can completely understand the preservationist perspective. However, the last thing I want to see is the Stage Center saved and then left to rot.

I completely agree with all of this. Very good points!!!!!!!

[Plutonic Panda]

Agree with Spartan. Unless it is a 50 story tower or more then Stage Center will have to labor on. A 20 or 25 story tower is a waste of the location and the plans of a very shortshighted developer.

That's what I'm thinking. Unless a super-tall is built, I'm not for it. I just think a 20 or 30 story building would warrant a demo of the Stage Center.

[Plutonic Panda]

Labor on and do what? Sit there and collect dust? Flood some more?

I will miss the Stage Center too but it used up its 9 lives a long time ago. Its different than the buildings in, say, Midtown or Film Row, which can be renovated into something that generates income (apartments, restaurants, hotel, etc.) I cannot think of anything that can be done to do the same with this. The children's museum was its last best hope, and even that fell through. Economics do matter.

I guess it can always be a theatre. But I have a few friends that work with one of the theatre productions in town and they hated the place, and according to them nobody in their field really wants to use the SC. Some of that feeling is probably due to the fact they lost half their stuff in the June 2010 floods, but its just wasn't very flexible space compared to other venues in town.

Remember when you are out enjoying your favorite downtown landmark either in OKC or Dallas, NYC, or wherever, something was probably torn down to make room for it. The CBD has surprisingly little land to develop, so this will not be the last time something like this occurs. Its early, but I am not detecting some groundswell of support to save this thing as much as this board indicates. Probably because most people would like to wait and see what the tower will look like before making judgement. If the plans for this building are what they say they are, then I have no problem with it.

Its time to let the Stage Center go.

Sorry, but that is not a good way of looking at it. I don't think it ever had a certain number of lives and certainly think it could be restored and put to use with the right developer.

[TaurusNYC]

I think the Stage Center would make a very nice museum of modern art. Ever seen the Pompidou Museum in Paris?

[Mississippi Blues]

Sorry, but that is not a good way of looking at it. I don't think it ever had a certain number of lives and certainly think it could be restored and put to use with the right developer.

Well, where's that developer at? We've been waiting & calling on him for quite awhile, but we're still sitting here looking at an empty Stage Center.

[Mississippi Blues]

That's what I'm thinking. Unless a super-tall is built, I'm not for it. I just think a 20 or 30 story building would warrant a demo of the Stage Center.

Unless somebody can fix up the Stage Center & make it function properly again then I don't care if it's a 20 story tower or an 80 story tower, an unused building shouldn't just be sitting there doing nothing on such a prime spot that has proposals lined up to build something that will actually function with the rest of downtown.