Why we need to stop comparing OKC to OKC of the 90's

[Pete]

This is a fantastic article by Aaron Renn for Governing, "Big Aspirations Aren’t Just for Big Cities Anymore", about how most middle-tier cities now have great amenities and thus not only compete with bigger cities more directly, but with all the other middle tier cities:

Last year, I lived in Indianapolis for 10 months, and I discovered that today the city in many respects has more and better stuff than Chicago did back in 1992. There’s amazing coffee in Indianapolis. There are so many microbreweries that I couldn’t make it to all of them. The food is infinitely better than it was. And then there’s the equalizing effect of the Internet: Wherever you are, you have access to the same music, books, clothing brands and other products as anywhere else. New York’s Metropolitan Opera simulcasts have even put world-class arts within reach.

These days, America’s smaller big cities -- those with metropolitan populations of roughly 1 to 3 million -- are in the game for business and residents in a way and at a level that they never could have dreamed just a couple decades ago.

Big Aspirations Aren?t Just for Big Cities Anymore


This is a fantastic observation that demonstrates the continual harping on 'how far we've come' isn't particularly relevant in the broader perspective. The progress is great and rewarding and fun to people who can remember the dark days but otherwise not at all the proper measuring stick.

Nor -- with all due respect to our friends up the turnpike -- is continually comparing ourselves to Tulsa, a smaller city that is growing much less rapidly and started from a similar deep hole.

I love OKC and particularly all the local people who are investing so heavily in it, but a trip to Milwaukee or Kansas City or even Fort Worth or Wichita quickly reminds you that we don't have anything they don't, and in many ways not as much.


Simply put, there isn't a single American city that hasn't made light years of progress since the 90's, and they can't point to an oil bust or a horrific bombing.

It's great to celebrate the progress but constantly patting ourselves on the back without taking an objective, hard look at similar communities leads to too much hubris and stands in the way of not expecting better development and much more progress.

[jerrywall]

Eh, yes and no. I feel we should celebrate our progress regardless. And we should expect more. There's nothing wrong with patting ourselves on our back, IMO, as long as we keep in mind there's always progress we can make. I do think there are things that are happening, less so on the construction scene and more on the cultural scene, that are unique or at least rare. I've had out of town visitors comparing our cultural scene to Austin and Portland, which I think is amazing, and we SHOULD be proud.

[Pete]

Didn't say we shouldn't celebrate and be proud and we do that here more than anywhere else.

I'm saying blind boosterism and endless cheerleading without a proper perspective is myopic and can stand in the way of OKC reaching it's full potential.

[adaniel]

While I agree with everything you wrote Pete, I think it's important to keep it in perspective. I would have to wonder how widespread pride and hubris in OKC really is.

Yes you will see a lot of people, either on here, or IRL living in gentrifying inner neighborhoods or prosperous suburbs, who are very bullish on OKC, some to an extreme. Outside of that group, it gets more complicated. I still think there is a significant population in this area that is still not quite sold on Oklahoma City. People on this board ragged on bchris. While he was extreme, I knew quite a few self loathing defeatist types in OKC who you would have thought were living in the first circle of hell. A lot of these people were "lifers" meaning that they've been here and nowhere else and seen the rebirth of OKC from the 90's until now, so their negativity was surprising. Lately, it has probably not helped that OK has had a pretty rough 2015 in the national press. IMO transplants and natives who have lived in other places tend to engage more in the cheerleading.

I was just in Piedmont for a wedding this weekend; in making small conversation with folks, when I would tell them that I now lived in Dallas, I got more than a few comments like "it must be so much better there!" or "you're so lucky you got out." These are not comments you would expect from a population that engages in "blind boosterism." Granted this was more of a blue collar crowd, not your types hanging out in Midtown or in the Plaza. But still, it was kind of jarring, considering the circle I hang out could probably be described as pretty pro-OKC.

As i repeated earlier, I don't disagree with your point. I was in the Norfolk-Virginia Beach area last month (I've been traveling like crazy this summer). This is an area with roughly 350K more people but is considered a peer metro to OKC. It also has a reputation as a bland, sprawling, military dominated place. But I was quite impressed with it. Great historical district (Ghent in Norfolk), nice, if not slightly disconnected urban areas, mass transit, surprisingly diverse, and quite a bit of construction. The beach wasn't anything special, but still it was a nice, moderately growing mid sized region.

These areas are making just as much improvements as OKC is and have some built in advantages that OKC does not. So a periodic gut check is needed. At the same time, I am not so sure we are at a point where people en masse are too caught up admiring our progress. There is nothing wrong with a little civic pride.

[hoya]

Honestly, OKC is like a 500 lb fat guy who goes on a diet. He starts out in a really bad place. After several years of exercise and healthy eating, he's down to a svelte 300. He's not an underwear model by any means, but he's made tremendous progress. The city was a cultural wasteland, there was almost nothing to do and nationally we were getting zero attention. That's all changed now. Are we competitive with cities like Denver or Virginia Beach? No, not really. We aren't an underwear model yet.

There's still a lot of work to be done. Improvement to the city will hopefully be a never ending process. I hope that 20 years from now, we'll look back and say "I know we're not San Francisco, but look how far we've come from OKC of 2015!" And then somebody will say "We should be comparing ourselves to Denver and Portland, not our crappy past selves with only one professional sports team and no supertall skyscrapers".

[dankrutka]

I also think that those of us who follow developments religiously can forget what OKC now has. We can kind of take it for granted because we read about the newest developments every day on this site. You even commented on your last visit how far OKC has come in terms of great options to eat, drink, and socialize. I think a lot of out-of-towners are also pleasently surprised too. Of course, blind boosterism is of no use, but I do think there is a healthy amount of criticism of the city from the people reading this.

[bradh]

I think a lot of out-of-towners are also pleasently surprised too.

This is absolutely true. Lackmeyer was going on and on via Twitter last week about the CVB "We've been expecting you, but were you expecting this?" signage at the airport, about how it's dated, blah blah (you know the general bitch of the day type thing), when in fact if you talk to people that work at the CVB, it's 100% correct in feedback and in surveys to out of towners who come to visit, that in fact, no, they were NOT expecting this Oklahoma City.

[Bellaboo]

I work with several software contractors, generally those just a few years out of college and they all find plenty of things to do and when speaking with them they are very surprised on what's going on. Last weekend they went to H&8th, saw some movie at the MBG and then on Sunday rented kayaks in the boathouse district. On a weekend in June they hiked the Wichita Mtns trails. A girl from Louisiana told me she couldn't believe Oklahoma had so much elevation......

[Just the facts]

Yes OKC is making progress, but the reality is that progress isn't happening near fast enough. While OKC might be going faster than it ever has, it isn't keep pace with other cities. If this was economics, OKC wouldn't be keeping up with inflation.

Jacksonville vs Sarasota: Revitalizing Downtown | Metro Jacksonville

Here is an interesting quote:

While Jacksonville ponders the future of its struggling convention center, Sarasota doesn't even have one.

[dankrutka]

Yes OKC is making progress, but the reality is that progress isn't happening near fast enough. While OKC might be going faster than it ever has, it isn't keep pace with other cities. If this was economics, OKC wouldn't be keeping up with inflation.

Jacksonville vs Sarasota: Revitalizing Downtown | Metro Jacksonville

Here is an interesting quote:

How are you defining "progress" and how are you evaluating which cities are progressing "fast enough"?

[Just the facts]

How are you defining "progress" and how are you evaluating which cities are progressing "fast enough"?

Answering that will take us way off topic, so in the name of thread integrity I'll take a pass. However, those who have followed my 2020 prediction will understand.

[bchris02]

Yes you will see a lot of people, either on here, or IRL living in gentrifying inner neighborhoods or prosperous suburbs, who are very bullish on OKC, some to an extreme. Outside of that group, it gets more complicated. I still think there is a significant population in this area that is still not quite sold on Oklahoma City. People on this board ragged on bchris. While he was extreme, I knew quite a few self loathing defeatist types in OKC who you would have thought were living in the first circle of hell. A lot of these people were "lifers" meaning that they've been here and nowhere else and seen the rebirth of OKC from the 90's until now, so their negativity was surprising. Lately, it has probably not helped that OK has had a pretty rough 2015 in the national press. IMO transplants and natives who have lived in other places tend to engage more in the cheerleading.

I was just in Piedmont for a wedding this weekend; in making small conversation with folks, when I would tell them that I now lived in Dallas, I got more than a few comments like "it must be so much better there!" or "you're so lucky you got out." These are not comments you would expect from a population that engages in "blind boosterism." Granted this was more of a blue collar crowd, not your types hanging out in Midtown or in the Plaza. But still, it was kind of jarring, considering the circle I hang out could probably be described as pretty pro-OKC.

I will completely agree with this. Right now, its like there are two OKCs co-existing in the same city. Where you live and who you surround yourself with here makes all the difference in what your experience will be. I made the mistake of moving to the outer burbs. It's worked in other cities I've lived in but wasn't the best fit for me here.

I have been spending a lot of time exploring the urban core on foot lately. When I am in places like the Plaza District and the Paseo, I can really feel the energy and optimism here. It's like I am in a completely different city. Living in the burbs and driving into the core to go to Fassler Hall or spend an evening in Bricktown doesn't cut it and isn't a replacement for actually living there. When I return to my drab apartment in the outer burbs, its like the life gets sucked right out of me again. That is why if all goes as planned, I will be living downtown within a few months. It won't be the answer to all of my [personal] issues but it will be the change in pace I have been needing and I am very excited about it.

In terms of OKC comparing itself to the 90s, I think it is a good thing to celebrate how far the city has come but its also important to keep things in perspective. OKC is improving but so are many other cities around the country.

I think at this point, what OKC really needs is one neighborhood that is a cut above everything else and that really has a "wow" factor. I think that is probably the biggest thing OKC is missing in 2015 that might cause people to say it compares unfavorably to its peer cities. Bricktown started out on that trajectory, but I believe it is behind where it should be after 20 years of development and doesn't really offer anything that similar entertainment districts in other cities don't also have. I think Midtown, Film Row, and 23rd St are OKC's real chances for greatness.

[Pete]

Midtown, once it fills in, will be OKC's showpiece.

It will also eventually tie together most the other districts, such as Uptown, Film Row, Farmer's Market and Auto Alley.

My one huge emerging concern for Midtown is the complete lack of for sale residences. SoSA is the only place you can buy right now, and that means 80% of the rest of Midtown will be apartments and restaurants, bars and some office with almost no one owning.

[bchris02]

I also think N Robinson and Park Ave could be a contender after First National Center gets refurbished. If done right, that part of the CBD could really have that wow factor.

[AP]

Glad to have you back after your brief time away bchris, and am very happy to see that you've decided to pursue living downtown. I think you'll love it. I agree that Park Ave could be great after First National is finished. What was the result of the retail study that was done?

[TU 'cane]

I think simply finding balance between "boosterism" and cautious optimism is key.
Unfortunately, I see too many negative Nancys on here who think the world is coming to an end because this or that, when they don't look at the bigger picture.

I think at this point, what OKC really needs is one neighborhood that is a cut above everything else and that really has a "wow" factor. I think that is probably the biggest thing OKC is missing in 2015 that might cause people to say it compares unfavorably to its peer cities. Bricktown started out on that trajectory, but I believe it is behind where it should be after 20 years of development and doesn't really offer anything that similar entertainment districts in other cities don't also have. I think Midtown, Film Row, and 23rd St are OKC's real chances for greatness.

Agreed.

I say it often, and I just said it in another thread this morning, but Bricktown has to remain one of the main, if not THE main focus of development while maintaining it's historic charm and relevance. It's such a vital catalyst to OKC's image and quality of life.
BT must be allowed to continue its growth.

[bradh]

The one thing that I think Bricktown is really missing is legit shopping to make it what I think bchris02 is hinting at. I think of other integrated entertainment districts in an urban setting (my first though is Denver's 16th Street Mall), and they have other things besides entertainment and food/drink. Any clue why shopping hasn't been a bigger hit there (not just talking about small local outfits, but national retailers).

sorry for the thread jack

[bchris02]

There are many things I can point to that have or still are preventing Bricktown from realizing its full potential. Rather than going into all of them, I just want to say the district needs to evolve into a live/work/play neighborhood and not just a place for suburbanites to spend the evening. Get more people living in Bricktown and retail and other more ambitious developments will follow. I also think the district needs to move away from its reputation as a club district. I think that dance clubs have their place in any city but having them clustered together as they are in Bricktown is a cause of problems, both real and perceived. A lot of other cities have one dance club per urban district or two at the most, which is a model I think would greatly benefit OKC.

I definitely agree that Bricktown, being the most well-known district and where tourists will usually end up, is pivotal to OKC's image.

[Spartan]

OKC needs to diversify economically.

[Rover]

Diversification is a great ideal. We have the following concentrations: energy, agriculture, biomed, aerospace, government. We have a fairly good concentration of manufacturing in non-oilfield, like several major HVAC manufacturers. So, what additional areas would be at the top of your list for diversification into? Finance has been very volatile. Many on here believe automotive is a doomed industry. Steel and other metals are hard for us to compete in worldwide and we don't have a great mineral base outside O&G. We don't have much of a talent base for a major push into silicon technology. Where would you all concentrate on?

[Pete]

Of course the energy business impacts OKC but I think that is much more psychological than real.

This is the latest list of largest employers and the 3 energy companies only comprise 4% of the total shown here.

Surprised Paycom isn't on this list but I'm sure they soon will be.

[Rover]

Thanks for putting it perspective. Facts beat emotion anytime.

[mkjeeves]

On blind boosterism, it's noteworthy how small a percentage of those jobs are in the inner core.

[hoya]

The biggest problem Bricktown has is that as soon as it started to take off, some of the property owners there thought "Jackpot! I'm rich, bitch!" And they immediately demanded super-high prices for everything. They wanted someone to come in and buy them out, to pay top dollar for their building or piece of land or whatever. Well if everybody is doing that, nobody is improving the district. Too many property owners were willing to simply sit and wait for the Magic Money Fairy to come along. That's why Midtown has been growing so much faster. The property owners there have been cooperating and investing.

Bricktown works pretty well as a tourist destination. People from all over the state go there and get a little taste of "the big city". It's a fairly easy walk from downtown hotels, the convention center, and the basketball arena, There's a bunch of restaurants and some bars and some stuff to do. We'll see how it develops after the Steelyard is completed and once The Hill fills up. I'd bet it still stays mostly tourist-oriented though.

[Rover]

Yes, Btown seems more speculator owners and midtown & DD more "developers" They seemed to think once the city spent the Maps money there they could sit back and rake in the money. Still way too many vacant lots and underdeveloped properties.