Re-urbanizing Downtown

[Just the facts]

The development has an intangible benefit of bringing hundreds of high-income people to live downtown. Those people will spend money downtown and want services downtown and it will be a win win for everyone,...

This is kind of the same logic used to promote tax cuts for businesses and the 1%ers. Just make the rich happy and the rest of us can live off the crumbs and table droppings. This just in, most of us don't shop at the same places the 1% shop at. This can't be more evident than the power brokers (LN and crowd) trying to lure Nordstrom's and white-cloth restaurants downtown when 'the people' are asking for a Target and low to moderate priced locally owned diners. It is two different worlds.

[bchris02]

This is kind of the same logic used to promote tax cuts for businesses and the 1%ers. Just make the rich happy and the rest of us can live off the crumbs and table droppings. This just in, most of us don't shop at the same places the 1% shop at. This can't be more evident than the power brokers (LN and crowd) trying to lure Nordstrom's and white-cloth restaurants downtown when 'the people' are asking for a Target and low to moderate priced locally owned diners. It is two different worlds.

Who said anybody is trying to lure Nordstrom downtown instead of a Target? It would be great for downtown to have a quality grocer period but they won't come due to "not enough rooftops." When people are actually living downtown - which the ClayCo development will bring in by the hundreds - then the grocers will see a market there and will eventually build. Some people are so blinded by their idealism they lose sight of the way economics works.

Want a Target? Downtown OKC has to have the demographics in place to support it and right now it's not there. Developments like the Clayco development is another stepping stone towards that goal.

[Plutonic Panda]

Who said anybody is trying to lure Nordstrom downtown instead of a Target? It would be great for downtown to have a quality grocer period but they won't come due to "not enough rooftops." When people are actually living downtown - which the ClayCo development will bring in by the hundreds - then the grocers will see a market there and will eventually build. Some people are so blinded by their idealism they lose sight of the way economics works.

Want a Target? Downtown OKC has to have the demographics in place to support it and right now it's not there. Developments like the Clayco development is another stepping stone towards that goal.

+1

[Just the facts]

Who said anybody is trying to lure Nordstrom downtown instead of a Target?

Maybe you missed it but in the renderings for Core to Shore they depicted a Nordstrom's and several OKC leaders (both Civic and Elected) expressed that desire. And if I had a dollar for every time LN said he wanted a fancy restaurant downtown I would be almost as rich as him.

http://newsok.com/development-appear...rticle/5363302

[Plutonic Panda]

Maybe you missed it but in the renderings for Core to Shore they depicted a Nordstrom's and several OKC leaders (both Civic and Elected) expressed that desire.

Those renderings are purely fictional and conceptual. Besides, would you rather have a Nordstroms come to Memorial or Penn Square or downtown in Core2Shore where it will it will attract more people.

[boitoirich]

Yes, downtown OKC needs rooftops, but we do not need to give away the farm to get there. We also might want to start to develop some standards for the built environment. Having a Nordstroms or Target downtown would be nice, but I'm not willing to give away tons of money to a developer just for getting the ball rolling. Any TIF money needs to be tied to performance and changes to the site plan that add appeal to the city (subducted parking, for example).

[Just the facts]

Those renderings are purely fictional and conceptual. Besides, would you rather have a Nordstroms come to Memorial or Penn Square or downtown in Core2Shore where it will it will attract more people.

If it involved public money I would just as soon a Nordstrom's go to Penn Sq. and save public money for an Urban Target. Here is the thing though - the renderings don't just happen by accident.

[bchris02]

If it involved public money I would just as soon a Nordstrom's go to Penn Sq. and save public money for an Urban Target. Here is the thing though - the renderings don't just happen by accident.

I don't think OKC will have any problems attracting a downtown SuperTarget once it has enough population to fit into the formula Target uses, or at least close enough where a small incentive could convince them to pull the trigger. Regardless, I don't understand why you are so put off by the Nordstrom in the conceptual plan for Core2Shore. It's very unlikely to happen and even if it does it will be years after downtown's grocery needs are met.

[Rover]

If it involved public money I would just as soon a Nordstrom's go to Penn Sq. and save public money for an Urban Target. Here is the thing though - the renderings don't just happen by accident.

It's a class warfare conspiracy to keep the little people down. Power to the people!!!! (sorry, you may be too young to remember that chant)

[DenverPoke]

Here in Denver we have about 20,000 residents downtown (and rapidly increasing) and another 35,000 or so within a mile and a half and getting a City Target here isn't a certainty. Heck the first of two grocery stores isn't opening until 2016. I guess my point is it takes a very long time for these things to happen, even if the head count seems to justify it sooner.

[Just the facts]

Here in Denver we have about 20,000 residents downtown (and rapidly increasing) and another 35,000 or so within a mile and a half and getting a City Target here isn't a certainty. Heck the first of two grocery stores isn't opening until 2016. I guess my point is it takes a very long time for these things to happen, even if the head count seems to justify it sooner.

That is kind of crazy - downtown Jax has 3 grocery stores (Publix, Fresh Market, and Winn-Dixie) plus multiple 7/11's and foodmarts - not to mention all the ethnic and health food stores.

[bchris02]

That is kind of crazy - downtown Jax has 3 grocery stores (Publix, Fresh Market, and Winn-Dixie) plus multiple 7/11's and foodmarts - not to mention all the ethnic and health food stores.

Doing just a quick Google search I find Denver has a Safeway very close to downtown at 20th and Park Ave and a King Soupers at 13th and N Speer. While they may not have a City Target or a grocer right in their CBD, they are light years ahead of OKC in this department. Jacksonville has the advantage of being in a state with lax liquor laws and with well-established regional grocers, both things that OKC doesn't have. It takes a smaller head count to have a grocery store when you can rely on alcohol sales for profit. The Harris Teeter in downtown Charlotte has a much larger alcohol selection than your typical Harris Teeter does.

OKC needs a quality grocer in its core, period. It could be in Midtown or even Uptown and would be much welcome. Having to drive to NW Expressway or S May and SW 104th defeats the purpose of living downtown. I have made up my mind that I will not consider living downtown until there is a quality grocery store in the core.

[DenverPoke]

Yes sorry I didn't mean to imply that one would have to drive 10 miles to find a grocery store in Denver. But if one lives downtown you aren't walking to any grocery store. Strangely the two being built downtown (King Soopers and Whole Foods) are going to be less than 3 blocks apart.

But I do think Denver is a good model for OKC to follow. Both lost a ton of urbanity and wonderful old building stock during not-so-distant "urban renewal"and have grown organically. Downtown Denver was a ghost town and had the highest office vacancy in America in the late 80s and has slowly transformed itself into a very vibrant place and one of the most desired living locations in the country.

[Urbanized]

Yes sorry I didn't mean to imply that one would have to drive 10 miles to find a grocery store in Denver. But if one lives downtown you aren't walking to any grocery store...

If the rumored grocery store (worst-kept secret in town) arrives where it is supposed to, nobody will be walking to it, either. Well, actually a few hundred will be able to, but many of them will still drive, as will the bulk of downtown residents. Certainly not enough people will walk to make a quality SUPERMARKET viable. The vast majority of customers will still be driving, and THEY are the ones that will make the supermarket work.

There is this sill fantasy that has existed for a while that people downtown will be able to live a Manhattan lifestyle, walking to the market, etc.. Honestly, most of them will probably always drive. People in Manhattan don't walk to supermarkets, they walk to bodegas. The disconnect with reality is sometimes extreme around here.

Right this very moment in time you can live downtown and drive to grocery stores (some are even acceptable) that are closer than what many people in Edmond or Deer Creek or Yukon or Mustang have. It is NOT a currently-unacceptable situation. Can it be greatly improved? Yes. But it shouldn't stop anyone from living downtown, and the fantasy of skipping to the Whole Foods quality supermarket across the street is NEVER going to happen, unless you live in a very specific block of downtown.

[bchris02]

Right this very moment in time you can live downtown and drive to grocery stores (some are even acceptable) that are closer than what many people in Edmond or Deer Creek or Yukon or Mustang have. It is NOT a currently-unacceptable situation. Can it be greatly improved? Yes. But it shouldn't stop anyone from living downtown, and the fantasy of skipping to the Whole Foods quality supermarket across the street is NEVER going to happen, unless you live in a very specific block of downtown.

There is a HUGE gulf between the 18th and Classen Homeland and a Whole Foods quality supermarket. A lot of people who haven't lived in other cities don't understand how dire the grocery store situation is in OKC. It's terrible city-wide, with only a handful of stores in the entire metro that are half-way decent at all. It's especially bad in the urban core. The Wal-Mart Neighborhood Market at 23rd and Penn would probably be acceptable for most. If the 18th and Classen Homeland is unacceptable and you don't want to shop at Wal-Mart, then your closest option if you live downtown is the Buy for Less on NW Expressway. That is unacceptable.

Hopefully the proposed Uptown Grocery at MLK and 23rd happens sooner rather than later (though I think there are some complications with it). While it wouldn't be acceptable as a downtown grocer in other cities because of distance, it will be much closer and more convenient than what is currently available to downtown OKC residents.

[Urbanized]

I have Trader Joe's Metropolitan Market, Safeway, and Bartells all within a few blocks of me in Seattle.

Sometimes the disconnect is extreme. But you've got it backwards.

Hmmm, I have it backwards how exactly?

[Urbanized]

When I'm saying it "isn't unacceptable," I only mean it is a weak excuse for not living downtown; a red herring. It is no more inconvenient than a lot of other "desirable" parts of the metro. Does that mean that there is not HUGE room for improvement? Of course not.

But the idea that within any of our lifetimes downtown OKC will be replete with NYC-style bodegas every few blocks (the only way everyone living downtown will be able to walk to the grocery) is ludicrous. And the idea that a single great supermarket locating downtown (which will almost certainly happen in the next few years) will create the same walkable result as the bodega solution in Manhattan? Also ludicrous. The vast majority of a downtown supermarket's customers will still be arriving by automobile, now matter how some of us might wish it were different.

I'm mostly just saying the "I'll move downtown when I can walk to a great grocery store" position is a total cop out. If that's your position, you honestly just don't REALLY want to live downtown.

[Urbanized]

I don't disagree with that; however don't plan on a downtown supermarket in OKC being built without LOTS of parking, most likely of the surface variety.

And yeah, I DO think some on this board over the years have advanced the fantastical notion of everyone living downtown being able to walk to the grocery. If that ever happens, it will be a generation or two down the road. And "the grocery" will look a lot more like Native Roots or even Walgreens than Whole Foods or Albertson's.

[bchris02]

I don't disagree with that; however don't plan on a downtown supermarket in OKC being built without LOTS of parking, most likely of the surface variety.

As long as it's behind the store rather than in front of it, I don't see an issue with that.

Also, nobody is expecting NYC bodega style grocery shopping here. It would be nice though to have a quality grocery store closer than a 15 minute drive from Deep Deuce or Midtown. I think lack of amenities is still a valid reason for choosing the suburbs over downtown in OKC.

All of that said, grocery stores for the most part leave a lot to be desired all over the metro thanks to the fact that OKC lacks a strong, established chain other than Wal-Mart. There are nice, upscale suburban areas here that are food deserts that would be well served if they were in any other city.

[BoulderSooner]

I don't disagree with that; however don't plan on a downtown supermarket in OKC being built without LOTS of parking, most likely of the surface variety.

And yeah, I DO think some on this board over the years have advanced the fantastical notion of everyone living downtown being able to walk to the grocery. If that ever happens, it will be a generation or two down the road. And "the grocery" will look a lot more like Native Roots or even Walgreens than Whole Foods or Albertson's.

Hopefully. There will be a 3 or 4 story garage just across the street from the grocery just to the east

[Jim Kyle]

All of that said, grocery stores for the most part leave a lot to be desired all over the metro thanks to the fact that OKC lacks a strong, established chain other than Wal-Mart. There are nice, upscale suburban areas here that are food deserts that would be well served if they were in any other city.

At one time, we had a number of strong, established chains. Remember that the shopping cart itself was invented right here, by the patriarch of the Goldman clan, which operated Humpty Dumpty. That was the flagship of IGA, the Independent Grocers Association, which united literally scores of locally-owned mom-n-pop supermarkets all over the state. It was actually the marketing branch of one of the major distributors -- I can't remember whether it was Fleming or Scribner's -- but it did impose quite a few standards. When I moved to SoCal in 1959, I was amazed at how much WORSE the stores there were, compared to what I had left behind me here!

In addition to IGA, we had the RedBud stores, which as I recall was a similar organization run by the other distributor. After both distributors went under in the 1980s collapse of our entire economy, Associated Grocers moved into the vacuum and eventually set the standards now being followed by Homeland. Today's distributors seem to concentrate on simply moving product, with no effort to establish standards or chain-like reputations for their clients. Wal-Mart's position is, I believe, largely due to the fact that they are their own distributor and operate independently of their dinosaurish competitors. In days gone by, an IGA logo was pretty much a guarantee of quality...

As I recall, Crescent Market's move from Plaza Court out to Nichols Hills Plaza marked the end of "downtown" grocers. It's been a very long dry spell...

[Urbanized]

...Also, nobody is expecting NYC bodega style grocery shopping here. It would be nice though to have a quality grocery store closer than a 15 minute drive from Deep Deuce or Midtown...

No, but over the years a number of people commenting here have openly fantasized about a time when everyone living downtown could walk to the grocery store, without realizing that would require many small groceries rather than one supermarket.

Regarding your comment about the 15 minute drive to a quality grocery store from DD or midtown, that's simply not true. Whole Foods, for instance, is MAYBE 10. Homeland is obviously not optimal, but I'm there once a week or so. Other options exist within that 10 minute circle. Like I said, this is not THAT different from many other "desirable" locations in the metro.

Regarding your routine assertion that grocery shopping in general in OKC leaves much to be desired, you are of course correct, but that isn't relevant to the thread. Actually, it only supports my assertion that the grocery "penalty" associated with living downtown vs the suburbs is an overstatement.

[adaniel]

I lived in midtown for 4 years. In that time I NEVER found it to be difficult to go pick up something. I find people who make such claims to obviously have never lived in this area, just going off their own conclusions, which are wrong btw. If you want an easy big-box oriented lifestyle you will not find that in any urban area, period. And it's already been pointed out it's not that far of a drive to any other stores outside the core. Whole Foods and Sprouts were exactly 9 and 12 minutes from my place. CVS, Homeland, and Wal Mart were within 10, really not the end of the world. For comparison's sake, its a 15 minute walk from my friends co-op in Chelsea, NYC to the crappy little Duane Reade where they do their grocery shopping.

I am not so sure that a large scale grocery store is right around the corner for this area. I look at Uptown/Downtown Dallas, which combined has something like 75K people, and they are just now getting a Whole Foods. There's been a sad little Albertsons on the north side of Uptown, it was at best a half-step up from the 18th St Homeland. Most people I know in Uptown simply drove into other nearby districts or into Highland Park. Another poster pointed out the same thing in Denver. The point being, most big box grocery stores don't have urban environments completely figured out yet.

[Urbanized]

Great post, though I do believe we will see a high-quality grocery store downtown or extremely convenient to downtown within the next 5 years or so. Lots of people working hard to make this happen.

[bchris02]

I am not so sure that a large scale grocery store is right around the corner for this area. I look at Uptown/Downtown Dallas, which combined has something like 75K people, and they are just now getting a Whole Foods. There's been a sad little Albertsons on the north side of Uptown, it was at best a half-step up from the 18th St Homeland. Most people I know in Uptown simply drove into other nearby districts or into Highland Park. Another poster pointed out the same thing in Denver. The point being, most big box grocery stores don't have urban environments completely figured out yet.

I disagree with most of this. I'm not sure about Dallas, but Denver has a couple of quality supermarkets on the perimeter of their downtown, just none in downtown itself. The NYC example is irrelevant.

Most cities comparable to OKC may not have a supermarket right in their downtowns but they do have a supermarket similar in scale and location to the rumored Midtown grocery store that may arrive within the next 3-5 years. That grocery store will not only serve the needs of Midtown/Downtown/DD but also the greater core area of OKC.