OG&E Tower

[catcherinthewry]

If they can save the Marion, they could have saved Stage Center.

Who is "they"? The Marion is being restored because a developer saw a chance to make a profit. SC had the same chance but NO ONE stepped up.

[coov23]

If they can save the Marion, they could have saved Stage Center.

Not a good comparison. The Marion is 100x cheaper to repair. I get what you're saying here, but it's still apples to oranges. I'm sad to see the building go. I grew up going to it. It is what it is at this point.

[Spartan]

Who is "they"? The Marion is being restored because a developer saw a chance to make a profit. SC had the same chance but NO ONE stepped up.

The Marion isn't totally profit driven - the developer considered demo seriously and decided it was worth preserving a potential landmark.

[catcherinthewry]

The Marion isn't totally profit driven - the developer considered demo seriously and decided it was worth preserving a potential landmark.

I never said it was totally profit driven. In the case of SC, apparently NO DEVELOPER "decided it was worth preserving as potential landmark". RIP SC.

[Spartan]

I never said it was totally profit driven. In the case of SC, apparently NO DEVELOPER "decided it was worth preserving as potential landmark". RIP SC.

You mean the sham RFP process?

[soonerguru]

Who is "they"? The Marion is being restored because a developer saw a chance to make a profit. SC had the same chance but NO ONE stepped up.

The developer could not do the Marion profitably. They did, however, receive historic tax subsidies, which make the project more feasible. They have stated publicly, however, that the value of the building will increase the value of their other buildings, even if it does not turn a profit. Pretty big-picture thinking. As a non-rich person, I admire them for doing this project that is in no way guaranteed to become profitable.

[catch22]

^guru

I believe the city tied their funding eligibility in with the other two buildings they are renovating across the street. So both the city and the developer used some creative big picture thinking to ensure it was renovated.

The stage center just did not have any political or developer support in being saved. Even if the city wanted it saved, there were still almost no proposals for renovating it. You still need a developer...

[catcherinthewry]

You mean the sham RFP process?

How long did the SC sit empty and unused? Developers had ample opportunity to restore it, but none chose to.

[hoya]

Who is "they"?

"They" are people with technical knowledge who do, umm, magic stuff, or something, to old buildings to make them not fall down. Architecturists and building constructors.

[hoya]

How long did the SC sit empty and unused? Developers had ample opportunity to restore it, but none chose to.

A far shorter time than the Marion did. From what I remember, the Marion was already vacant when Stage Center was first built. Hence why it's such an awesome example for me to use.

[catcherinthewry]

A far shorter time than the Marion did. From what I remember, the Marion was already vacant when Stage Center was first built. Hence why it's such an awesome example for me to use.

And in all those years it sat vacant how many times did some one propose another use for it? That's the difference, SC was vacant for long time and RW proposed another use for it.

[catcherinthewry]

"They" are people with technical knowledge who do, umm, magic stuff, or something, to old buildings to make them not fall down. Architecturists and building constructors.

If you do magic stuff to SC to make it not fall down, but still can't find anyone to redevelop it and use it then it just becomes an expensive piece of public art. And I use the term "art" loosely.

[Spartan]

How long did the SC sit empty and unused? Developers had ample opportunity to restore it, but none chose to.

How long was it legitimately available and not in the hands of corporate interests?

[Spartan]

^guru

I believe the city tied their funding eligibility in with the other two buildings they are renovating across the street. So both the city and the developer used some creative big picture thinking to ensure it was renovated.

The stage center just did not have any political or developer support in being saved. Even if the city wanted it saved, there were still almost no proposals for renovating it. You still need a developer...

The Marion is also worth pointing to as a sterling example of a public private partnership that moved the needle for an iffy preservation scenario. It is not an example of a slam dunk quick buck deal like the anti-HP crowd are constantly looking for.

[Urbanized]

OMG the idea that SC was not physically salvageable just drives my crazy. It is the most intellectually dishonest part of this whole discussion. Anyone who falls back on that is either being intentionally dishonest or knows nothing - NOTHING - about the building arts. It is essentially a concrete bunker. The flood basically ruined carpet, drywall, electrical and HVAC systems, all if which could have been easily (though not inexpensively) replaced.

It could stand abandoned for decades if not a century in its present condition and still be fully renovated. There are dozens of local examples of much more damaged and fragile buildings other than the Marion - many currently being renovated - that stood abandoned and open to the elements for many decades longer than the few years SC has been empty. It's just a ridiculous argument and ignores facts.

The reasons SC is coming down are simple:

1. Location
2. Location
3. Location
4. It's probably impossible to pay for upkeep with proceeds generated from its intended use
5. It's difficult to reconfigure for a different use
6. Lots of people don't like it, many of them important people
7. It never developed the following it deserved, in part thanks to reasons above
8. Nobody with deep enough pockets or a viable plan (that appealed to someone with deep pockets) came forward during its lifetime (in part thanks to reasons above)
9. Location

It's a sad story, but if there is a plus side it's that it's about to be behind us.

[Pete]

It would have been easy to save as part of Project 180, but you never even heard a peep about that possibility.

We're redoing just about everything else downtown these days: Parks, streets, sidewalks other public spaces. I know this property is not owned by the City but that could have been easily arranged. And almost every older structure has been renovated or there are plans to do so.

Simply no one in a position of power, influence or wealth seemed to care about it whatsoever.

[Urbanized]

Does anybody think the Overholser Mansion cash flows? The Oklahoma Governors Mansion? The Round Barn in Arcadia? Marland Mansion in Ponca City? Frank Phillips' home in Bartlesville? Price Tower? Robie House in Chicago? Taliesin West? They are preserved because they are important places for one reason or another. In some cases thanks to the occupant, in some cases thanks to the designer or a movement it embodies.

By the way, as long as I mentioned his buildings, Frank Lloyd Wright designs were/are notorious for leaks, engineering failures and poor function. Wright was famous for forcing design ideas on clients. He made you use his furniture - designed for your house - which was uncomfortable as hell, and made you leave it where he placed it. If you were a patron, you accepted that - even embraced it - as a consequence of owning a building designed by Wright. You valued that you were a part of moving the needle in the world of architecture.

I'm sure that sounds really dumb to some people.

Stage Center was important enough that we should have been recognized locally as such a generation ago and its ARCHITECTURAL HERITAGE brought to bear rather than the continuous head-beating-against-the-wall of trying to force theater tickets and little nonprofit organizations to pay for it. We missed as a community and failed on this one. Life goes on.

[Urbanized]

It would have been easy to save as part of Project 180, but you never even heard a peep about that possibility.

We're redoing just about everything else downtown these days: Parks, streets, sidewalks other public spaces. I know this property is not owned by the City but that could have been easily arranged. And almost every older structure has been renovated or there are plans to do so.

Simply no one in a position of power, influence or wealth seemed to care about it whatsoever.

Exactly. And in some cases just the opposite; they hated it. Nobody who had the dollars to save it wanted to pick a fight with the ones who wanted it gone.

I still don't agree that it required tax dollars. Only earlier intervention. This problem should have been solved in the seventies or eighties. Any time an architectural fight is done in the eleventh hour it generally is a losing battle and ALWAYS costs the preservationists political capital.

[hoya]

And in all those years it sat vacant how many times did some one propose another use for it? That's the difference, SC was vacant for long time and RW proposed another use for it.

Stage Center was only vacant for a few years.

If you do magic stuff to SC to make it not fall down, but still can't find anyone to redevelop it and use it then it just becomes an expensive piece of public art. And I use the term "art" loosely.

We don't know that someone wouldn't redevelop it. There was a very limited window to find someone to renovate it. The Rock Island Plow building sat empty for decades. And the design of Stage Center Tower shows that it's basically an excuse to build a giant parking garage.

[catcherinthewry]

We don't know that someone wouldn't redevelop it. There was a very limited window to find someone to renovate it. The Rock Island Plow building sat empty for decades. And the design of Stage Center Tower shows that it's basically an excuse to build a giant parking garage.

The difference between the Marion, the Plow and SC is that someone wanted to redevelop the SC site. As Urbanized said earlier, it was location, location, location. If SC was in a less desirable location its unworkable design may have sat empty for decades. Unfortunately or fortunately depending on your POV, it sits on prime real-estate so some one has found a better use for it.

[Buffalo Bill]

OMG the idea that SC was not physically salvageable just drives my crazy. It is the most intellectually dishonest part of this whole discussion. Anyone who falls back on that is either being intentionally dishonest or knows nothing - NOTHING - about the building arts. It is essentially a concrete bunker. The flood basically ruined carpet, drywall, electrical and HVAC systems, all if which could have been easily (though not inexpensively) replaced.

It could stand abandoned for decades if not a century in its present condition and still be fully renovated. There are dozens of local examples of much more damaged and fragile buildings other than the Marion - many currently being renovated - that stood abandoned and open to the elements for many decades longer than the few years SC has been empty. It's just a ridiculous argument and ignores facts.

The reasons SC is coming down are simple:

1. Location
2. Location
3. Location
4. It's probably impossible to pay for upkeep with proceeds generated from its intended use
5. It's difficult to reconfigure for a different use
6. Lots of people don't like it, many of them important people
7. It never developed the following it deserved, in part thanks to reasons above
8. Nobody with deep enough pockets or a viable plan (that appealed to someone with deep pockets) came forward during its lifetime (in part thanks to reasons above)
9. Location

It's a sad story, but if there is a plus side it's that it's about to be behind us.

You forgot:J - it was never any good at its intended purpose, being a theater. Saw many a production there. It sucked. "Tray" system? Terrible. Non air conditioned herding chutes? Awful.

[soonerguru]

OMG the idea that SC was not physically salvageable just drives my crazy. It is the most intellectually dishonest part of this whole discussion. Anyone who falls back on that is either being intentionally dishonest or knows nothing - NOTHING - about the building arts. It is essentially a concrete bunker. The flood basically ruined carpet, drywall, electrical and HVAC systems, all if which could have been easily (though not inexpensively) replaced.

It could stand abandoned for decades if not a century in its present condition and still be fully renovated. There are dozens of local examples of much more damaged and fragile buildings other than the Marion - many currently being renovated - that stood abandoned and open to the elements for many decades longer than the few years SC has been empty. It's just a ridiculous argument and ignores facts.

The reasons SC is coming down are simple:

1. Location
2. Location
3. Location
4. It's probably impossible to pay for upkeep with proceeds generated from its intended use
5. It's difficult to reconfigure for a different use
6. Lots of people don't like it, many of them important people
7. It never developed the following it deserved, in part thanks to reasons above
8. Nobody with deep enough pockets or a viable plan (that appealed to someone with deep pockets) came forward during its lifetime (in part thanks to reasons above)
9. Location

It's a sad story, but if there is a plus side it's that it's about to be behind us.

Of all these on the list, number 6 annoys me the most. Who are these people and why do they hold such sway? Based on your other post, it sounds like some of these bigwigs are still trying to settle a score from decades ago when this building was "forced" on them. Absolutely petty and ridiculous. I think I know who you are talking about, by the way.

[soonerguru]

The difference between the Marion, the Plow and SC is that someone wanted to redevelop the SC site. As Urbanized said earlier, it was location, location, location. If SC was in a less desirable location its unworkable design may have sat empty for decades. Unfortunately or fortunately depending on your POV, it sits on prime real-estate so some one has found a better use for it.

So far, it's arguable whether this is a "better use." So far, we have bupkus, but we have all sorts of assurances that Rainey Williams is a really swell guy and we have his assurances that he's going to put something "world class" there.

Then, we have the incredible shrinking tower that seems to be a modest office building with a massive parking garage.

Better use? We're tearing down an iconic piece of architecture with a bland office complex and a spec site.

[betts]

So far, it's arguable whether this is a "better use." So far, we have bupkus, but we have all sorts of assurances that Rainey Williams is a really swell guy and we have his assurances that he's going to put something "world class" there.

Then, we have the incredible shrinking tower that seems to be a modest office building with a massive parking garage.

Better use? We're tearing down an iconic piece of architecture with a bland office complex and a spec site.

At best. The lack of information on this project is astonishing, and coupled with Williams complete lack of resume, it is pretty shocking that he was given permission to destroy this.

[5alive]

+1