Funding Approved for Education System - Taken from ODOT

[Buffalo Bill]

Hmmmm. From what I've seen, Austin seems to have way better roads than we do. Their interchanges are much better as their highways seem to be designed better as well.

Look at the freeways of Austin and of Oklahoma City on Google maps with the traffic layer on. Right now there is quite a bit of red on the Austin highways. Very little on those of OKC.

[Plutonic Panda]

Look at the freeways of Austin and of Oklahoma City on Google maps with the traffic layer on. Right now there is quite a bit of red on the Austin highways. Very little on those of OKC.

I am well aware of that. There are plenty of factors that make that so, not just Austin having 1.8 million people either.

[bluedogok]

I lived in Austin for 9 years, most of the roads in or near downtown are just as bad as anywhere else. Some interchanges are better but they can actually take longer in the design to construction cycle because of how TxDOT manages projects. Benham quit doing work for TxDOT because of it, they used to have offices in San Antonio, Austin and Houston and eventually closed them, the San Antonio office was pretty large and my father worked down there often.. When ODOT commits to a project it is usually one project through completion, TxDOT will have designers do the design and then put it on the shelf for a few years until the construction portion can be budgeted. Then they pull it off the shelf and expect the budget figures from a few years before to be correct, maybe send it to the designer for some changes (at the firms expense) and then might let a construction contract out. They would get very frustrated dealing with TxDOT, that is part of the reason why there are a few large firms that do the bulk of the work for TxDOT. Ben White was under construction when my wife moved to Austin in 1988, it was still under construction when we sold our house in May of 2012, they had just started the other half of the interchanges at I-35 and Mopac.

CDOT has many of the same issues that ODOT and TxDOT have, just the nature of the beast of high public expectations and the lack of efficiency that a massive governmental agency operates at. Then you also have massive politics in play which is why Dallas and Houston have much more when it comes to highways than Austin or San Antonio. If you think the OKC-Tulsa infighting is bad it is nothing compared to the Texas city battles, then you also had the "don't build it and they won't move here" mentality that the Austin city council had in the boom of the 90's which is when they should have addressed their infrastructure.

Remember TxDOT had a $1.5 billion "accounting error" about 5 years ago and some talk of them being "sunsetted" because of that.

[Just the facts]

Maybe someday enough people will wise up and we can have transportation and education systems we can afford, because it is apparent people don't want to pay the level of taxation it takes to get the services they say they want.

[Plutonic Panda]

Maybe someday enough people will wise up and we can have transportation and education systems we can afford, because it is apparent people don't want to pay the level of taxation it takes to get the services they say they want.

It can be funded at sustainable levels, the politics is so screwed up, money gets diverted and doesn't go where it supposed to go, so we end up in this situation.

[Plutonic Panda]

This really sucks. Their projects already take long enough and now we're looking at this happening...

Oklahoma Transportation Chief Warns Of Project Delays

Posted: Apr 07, 2014 2:23 PM CDT
Updated: Apr 07, 2014 2:23 PM CDT
By Associated Press

OKLAHOMA CITY - Oklahoma's transportation director says road projects across the state will face significant delays if the Legislature pushes forward with a plan to divert transportation funding to education over the next several years.
Director Mike Patterson updated members of the Oklahoma Transportation Commission on Monday about a bill passed by a Senate committee last week that would divert hundreds of millions of dollars from transportation directly to public schools.

The bill next goes to the full Senate, although Senate President Pro Tem Brian Bingman said last week he doesn't support the measure in its current form.

Patterson said the bill likely will delay completion of the agency's eight-year road and bridge construction plan by about four years, from 2018 to 2022.

- Oklahoma Transportation Chief Warns Of Project Delays - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |

[venture]

This really sucks. Their projects already take long enough and now we're looking at this happening...

They either need to bite the bullet and cut spending in areas that we don't desperately need it (transportation and education) or bite the bullet and look to increase revenues.

[HangryHippo]

Exactly. We're going to actually have to start seriously looking at increasing revenues, or drastically reducing funding in areas where we currently waste so much. Ironically, ODOT should be on the hook on both counts.

[Plutonic Panda]

This is my comment on News9. Anyone who disagrees with it or finds something wrong, please correct me.

Wow, how stupid. Our projects already take long enough and now the money is going to be diverted to education? So we're attempting to solve one problem by creating another? What the hell happened to the funds from the lottery? Oh, I know, it never increased the education funding, it only allowed them to substitute the cuts with funds from the lotto.... great job Oklahoma!

How about letting ODOT be able to take out loans on construction projects so we can actually save money by avoiding inflation and not having to work on segments of the road we started on during phase 1 because it took 20 years to complete phase 5... want an example, look at I-35. The widening project started 20 year ago and we are just now finishing it; look at Main Street in Norman or I-235/I-44 interchange. This is ridiculous. This could all be solved by allowing ODOT to take out loans for major projects that could be finished quicker and we could a have a nicer final product instead of the half cloverleaf/ half flyover crap like what we're getting on the I-44/235 interchange, which they do because it would take too long to do all flyovers due to the way they fund the projects.

This is really a bad decision and needs to be reversed. I understand education is important, but there are other ways of doing this. Road, highway, and other transit funding are just as important as education funding. If they want to cut the income tax, fine. But the property tax needs to be raised in order to substitute that and the gas tax also needs to be raised fairly significantly and perhaps a mileage tax needs to be implemented due to the increasing fuel efficiency of the vehicle.

I understand it good to have lower taxes and I'm not trying to suggest we need to become like California, but you HAVE the right amount of taxes in order to make sure you don't go into the red. Also, taking out debt on major projects is not bad, just as long as it isn't abused. In some cases, Texas is able to pay their off in less than 5 years. It can add to the local economy, it also guarantees that since it is paid for upfront, there is no thread of inflation, which lessens the chances of going over budget.

[venture]

This is my comment on News9. Anyone who disagrees with it or finds something wrong, please correct me.

Nothing really sticks out as inaccurate. Of course you'll have the derps come after you for even suggesting raising revenues. LOL

[Plutonic Panda]

Nothing really sticks out as inaccurate. Of course you'll have the derbs come after you for even suggesting raising revenues. LOL

Yeah, I'm pretty much expecting that. haha... sucks that people want to see education funding increased, but don't want any new taxes and support and idiotic governor who insists on lowering them. I am just dumbfounded by it.

[venture]

Yeah, I'm pretty much expecting that. haha... sucks that people want to see education funding increased, but don't want any new taxes and support and idiotic governor who insists on lowering them. I am just dumbfounded by it.

Well you have a populace that has been brainwashed with talking points and no longer have the skill of rational thinking and common sense. Should we be shocked? Mattress Mary will get another 4 years this year probably with 68% of the vote.

[jn1780]

Well you have a populace that has been brainwashed with talking points and no longer have the skill of rational thinking and common sense. Should we be shocked? Mattress Mary will get another 4 years this year probably with 68% of the vote.

Maybe we should have a lottery that increases revenue and then lower taxes that decreases revenue and then have the derps wonder why the lottery didn't solve our problems. Oh wait! We already did that!

[bombermwc]

My problems with our roads are many:

1) The city/county/state continually spends money patching patches of previously patched patches. These are ruining my suspension.
2) The expansion joints at the beginning and end of our bridges are vicious. These are also ruining my suspension. If you need an example of what I'm talking about, drive I-40 WB at Meridian or MacArthur. You'll understand.
3) The design of highway interchanges is abysmal. The fact that we still have cloverleafs or two lane bridges for major interstates in new designs is outrageous.
4) The length of time it takes to complete a project is outrageous. Ironically, so is the length of time it takes for the new projects to start deteriorating. Example: the onramp to I-40 EB at Penn (or Western?) or the bridge over the Bricktown Canal portion. Or the fact they didn't realize that the roadbed was too high for the new Main St. bridge project in Norman so they had to redo that.
5) They widened I-40 to El Reno to three lanes but we leave the I-44/I-40 interchange bridges all at two lanes with crumbling concrete (even though they've been working on it for two years). WTF kind of planning and financial prudence is this?
6) There is a lot of waste in the number of signs that are placed for special names and "attractions." Not to mention the signs are put up poorly (gaps between the panels, signs tilted, bent, blown over, run over, etc).
7) Traffic signal timing. We don't have it in most places here apparently.
8) They obviously are not laying appropriate roadbeds because the roads sink and crack about 10 months after opening throughout the city.
9) Why can't they smooth the area where two surfaces of road meet. Example: they resurfaced an asphalt portion of one of the area turnpikes. However, when they got to the portion where the road turned back to concrete, the asphalt was slightly lower than the concrete. So, instead of smoothing this transition out (like I see done in Texas and Kansas), vehicles have now destroyed the beginning of the concrete portion from slamming into it and now there are chunks missing. It's now a game of chicken to see if your tires will stay mounted if you happen to hit one of these holes.

It's just a general sense of no thought being put into anything, a lot of waste, and then doing everything as cheaply as possible. It gets old.

Some of this I agree with, but some of it I do not. I felt like it might be helpful to comment on some of it. I don't know this for a fact, but based on your comments, I'm going to guess you aren't from OKC, which might explain why you don't know why some of this stuff is done the way it is....or that some of this is already on the books to correct.


1 - Well first off, good luck blaming the road on your car's suspension. In a perfect world, we'd all have a smooth road to drive on, but we don't get to drive on a sheet of ice every day, so yeah, you're going to have bumps. Oklahoma is a place that has frequent freeze and thaw events close to one another. This is TERRIBLE for the road and causes it to break up...ie potholes. You can't really prevent that from happening....it's mother nature. What they do is at least patch it until a more permanent solution can be had. Often they do a pretty crappy job of it. Why is that? Because they use the quick setting asphalt from a bag to do the work. Why do they do that? Well first, it's cheaper than doing a whole big thing because you do it with a few people and some shovels. Second, if you close a lane for a day to do it proper, people piss and moan about the lane being closed. Not matter what, people are unhappy.

2 - I drive those expansion joints all the time. There's absolutely nothing wrong with them. They're quite smooth in comparison to others in town as well. You mention so many things here about your car, perhaps your car needs to be checked out. If you're going the speed limit here, you're not seeing problems.

3 - Interchanges do suck. You can thank the 60's for those wonderfully intelligent designs. Thankfully, we're almost rid of cloverleafs in OKC though. 240/35 is the last one and it's already on the plans to be replaced in the next 10 years.

4 - The length of time is financially based. In Oklahoma, most projects are funded before they are completed rather than the other way around. This is either through bonding or traditional funding. That way OK doesn't stay in a constant state of debt that could throw the state into a horrible situation after a bad funding year where it wouldn't be able to meet it's debt obligations. Look back to as recently as 2005 to see how that would have been terrible. It does mean that things take a long time and everyone gets frustrated by it, but I think I'd rather the state not go bankrupt.

5 - I agree on the 44/40 interchange 100%. As with any of the projects, they seem to complete the roads before the big money pit interchanges because they think it clears up traffic between the interchanges....except most people flow through those interchanges rather than exit on a side road. That and the 235/40 ones will do wonders to improve flow by getting the proper number of lanes in there.

6 - Can't say I've ever noticed an overabundance of signage here. I actually have come to appreciate the level of signage in OK when visiting other places. I get very aggravated in other cities when a major intersection only has a sign on one corner instead of on the light. Or when the don't include the address blocks on there as well.

7 - Timing does suck. There's no question about it. There are few lights in town that have any thought put into how they work outside of their default settings. But again, it costs a lot of money to do a traffic study. Unless someone wants to pay for it, we're stuck with it.

8 - Agreed. I will say, that OK also is more difficult than a lot of places because of the freeze/thaw thing. The ground expands and contracts a LOT compared to even down in Dallas or up in Wichita. In Dallas, it doesn't freeze as often, and in Wichita, it just stays frozen. Like with seasons/plants/landscapes, OKC is smack dab on a line that splits so many different things. The weather is a big influencer in how all of that works.

9 - This one bugs the crap out of me too. Especially with bridge approaches. Really, like they didn't see that there was a 6" FALL right there? And railroad crossings seem to be OKC least capable approach project.

*10* - I'm going to add one here too. PROJECT COMPLETION INSPECTION!!!! - The city sucks at road project inspection....especially when the repairs are done by OKC employees...ie pothole patrol. I've never received any updates on my complaints on their projects even though their system says it will do so. It feels like it goes in a black hole.

[thebigtamale]

If you can convince the legislature and the public to take on new debt, increase the gas tax, increase property taxes, or pass a mileage tax, they'll make you Secretary of Transportation, King, and Emperor for Life

[rte66man]

Quite a bit of the surface streets (long stretches of Portland, 23rd, 10th, May, Penn, Western, Reno, et al) are just pathetic in terms of potholes, patched potholes, patched patches, asphalt all scrunched up and bumpy, lanes not marked, traffic lights out (just the red or just the green, not the entire light), parts missing on traffic lights, etc.

Traffic signal timing is horrible on quite a few streets.

A lot of bridges are structurally unsound.

Some interchanges are badly designed and unsafe.

Taking forever to do a project (due to the city's (or ODOT's, can't remember which, might be both) own limitation of not borrowing to pay for construction, which *can* be admirable, but not when interest rates are this low and it will take *10* damn years to finish the I-44/235 interchange, which has been poorly designed and in bad physical shape for over *20* years already).

Yes, some roads are good in the metro, but there are a *huge* amount that are not.

The Metro street examples don't have anything to do with ODOT. Blame the city and county for that.

It is illegal for ODOT to borrow money (as is true for any State agency other than Higher Ed). We barely got by with GARVEE bonds.

[rte66man]

We always moan and groan about how bad the roads are or how underfunded education is, but what it boils down to is it is OUR OWN FAULT. We do not elect people who will work for the good of the state rather than worrying about he next election (I'm talking State level offices here). When the Legislature gets up the nerve to try to pass a tax increase (as they did in 2002 to increase the gas tax by 10 cents a gallon), they couldn't reverse themselves on that due to the ENORMOUS whining be people who didn't want to pay another $2.00 per tankful to pay for better roads and bridges. I don't see a lot of people signing up to help groups that support raising the gas tax or even reforming the tax system. Heck, most people don't even know who their rep or senator is.

[Klop]

First off, I'm all for dollars going to the classroom and education. But before we start raising the red flag and appropriating more money for such, I think we need to look hard at some consolidation in our educational system.

Oklahoma has 520 school districts in 77 counties. Does anyone see a problem there? Administration consolidation should be closely looked at first.

Consolidating administration = reducing overhead = more money for teachers and support staffs = more money in the classroom = a better learning environment for children.

[ou48A]

Regardless of where our tax money is being spent we should always demand efficiency.

While visiting several offices in the Oklahoma Department of education in OKC several years ago for about an hour I was struck by what I saw. There were a high number of water cooler type conversations, people reading news papers and sports magazines, on the phone with obvious personal issues.
There is a lot of waste in our state government that needs to be addressed.

[Geographer]

Every department for the state of Oklahoma acts as their own de-facto government. They all submit their own budgets and actively try to steal money away from the others. The "richest" departments are the ones that are the most organized and get the most money.

Here's a little government waste for ya: $3 million per year for the Oklahoma Space Industry Development Authority in Burns Flat...something that should have been cut FOREVER ago. THREE MILLION PER YEAR.

Here's their website: index

[Plutonic Panda]

Every department for the state of Oklahoma acts as their own de-facto government. They all submit their own budgets and actively try to steal money away from the others. The "richest" departments are the ones that are the most organized and get the most money.

Here's a little government waste for ya: $3 million per year for the Oklahoma Space Industry Development Authority in Burns Flat...something that should have been cut FOREVER ago. THREE MILLION PER YEAR.

Here's their website: index

I honestly think that could work if market right.

[Geographer]

I honestly think that could work if market right.

Lol. Okay.

Because that's what we should be doing...continuing to fund a fictional space port that will never happen. There's so many other things that could use that money! lol. I feel like I shouldn't have to argue that lol.

Oklahoma spaceport's blighted buildings rile town officials in Burns Flat | News OK

[venture]

I honestly think that could work if market right.

I have to go with Geographer here, after how many years do we stop throwing money at it? It really hasn't amounted to anything and just keeps taking money. Any previous start ups involved with the project took the cash from the state and then ended up folding or leaving the state. We really aren't getting any benefit at all from it.

[Plutonic Panda]

Lol. Okay.

Because that's what we should be doing...continuing to fund a fictional space port that will never happen. There's so many other things that could use that money! lol. I feel like I shouldn't have to argue that lol.

Oklahoma spaceport's blighted buildings rile town officials in Burns Flat | News OK

With that kind of thinking, yeah, it will never happen.

This might seem like a joke to you, but all these "science fiction movie crap" that people see these things as, are going to become very prominent and if we had any brains, we'd get a head start and try to lead the pack. But no, lets just go the Oklahoma way which is cheap, short sighted thinking and let Texas or California eventually build theirs.

[Plutonic Panda]

I have to go with Geographer here, after how many years do we stop throwing money at it? It really hasn't amounted to anything and just keeps taking money. Any previous start ups involved with the project took the cash from the state and then ended up folding or leaving the state. We really aren't getting any benefit at all from it.

I can understand where you are coming from, but I think it needs to be looked at better. With cuts to NASA, if we can make a case and have the right team put together to market this place, it could become a competitor to the Space Port America in New Mexico. There is no reason Oklahoma can't become a leader and competitor in the growing private space industry which will only continue to expand.

I honestly didn't even know the place existed until I visited this site and suggested one be built here, and I try to stay up to date on this stuff.