OG&E Tower

[dmoor82]

Boston is pretty cool. Boston is actually one of the few cities I'd ever consider living in up north. Portland, Maine is a pretty kick ass city to. As far as Boston being better than Dallas, I'd just simply disagree with you. Dallas has done suburbs right and is beautifully sprawled out. If you are looking for major density such as NYC, Dallas is not your city. If you are looking for world class suburbs with a growing mass transit system, amazing highways, ever growing downtown with huge new urbanism projects, expensive car dealerships, world class airport, huge world class shopping districts, then I'd say Dallas is your city.

I respect Your opinion! I am a city type person, I don't care for suburbs but I understand their significance. As far as transit, walkability, historical significance, World class Universities, World class Hospitals, The Ocean and other things are why I would choose Boston or say it is "better" but that would be my opinion! Boston's core city population is slightly larger than OKC's but in an area the size of Midwest City, and another reason I'd choose Beantown is you don't need a car to survive there!

[dmoor82]

Pete, sorry to derail this thread, feel free to delete!

[Plutonic Panda]

I respect Your opinion! I am a city type person, I don't care for suburbs but I understand their significance. As far as transit, walkability, historical significance, World class Universities, World class Hospitals, The Ocean and other things are why I would choose Boston or say it is "better" but that would be my opinion! Boston's core city population is slightly larger than OKC's but in an area the size of Midwest City, and another reason I'd choose Beantown is you don't need a car to survive there!

I hear you. Really, at this point in time, if I had a choice of where to live, Dallas or Boston, I'd probably choose Boston. I want to live in an urban environment for awhile and see how it is. Every picture I've seen of Boston is awesome. Portland, Maine is a really awesome city also. I've been there, and I loved it. If you haven't heard much about it, I'd suggest looking it up. Very cool vibrant urban downtown with awesome architecture and history.

As far as education, ocean front, history, and mass transit, Dallas doesn't even hold a candle to Boston with that lol.

[dmoor82]

I hear you. Really, at this point in time, if I had a choice of where to live, Dallas or Boston, I'd probably choose Boston. I want to live in an urban environment for awhile and see how it is. Every picture I've seen of Boston is awesome. Portland, Maine is a really awesome city also. I've been there, and I loved it. If you haven't heard much about it, I'd suggest looking it up. Very cool vibrant urban downtown with awesome architecture and history.

I've been there, it is awesome for a smaller city. I love Maine all together.

[Plutonic Panda]

I've been there, it is awesome for a smaller city. I love Maine all together.

Never really got to explore Maine in depth, unfortunately for me, I had a few hours to explore the downtown of Portland and then I had to transport a 1004 Bronco back to my dad's car lot in Moore.

P.S. I also wanted to included this piece in case you missed it

As far as education, ocean front along with other natural features, history, and mass transit, Dallas doesn't even hold a candle to Boston with that lol. I don't even think Texas has an Ivy League College.

[dmoor82]

FWIW, I don't hate Dallas, it's an incredibly expansive metropolis with a monster of an airport and it has grown leaps and bounds in all areas very quickly in a short period of time, given how old the city is! DFW is a monster, love it or hate it!

[ljbab728]

Hmm? Is this thread about the Stage Center Tower? I think we have a couple of other Dallas love or hate threads.

[Bellaboo]

Never really got to explore Maine in depth, unfortunately for me, I had a few hours to explore the downtown of Portland and then I had to transport a 1004 Bronco back to my dad's car lot in Moore.

P.S. I also wanted to included this piece in case you missed it

As far as education, ocean front along with other natural features, history, and mass transit, Dallas doesn't even hold a candle to Boston with that lol. I don't even think Texas has an Ivy League College.

Rice University in Houston matches about any Ivy League school, imo.

[OKCSteel]

I've said this a few times but people on here only hear what they want. The city gave Stage Center a very acceptable chance to stay. They gave one year for true, viable, self-sustaining proposals to be presented to the city. There was one taker in a year. Their proposal was not self sustainable. Tax dollars would need to subsidize it monthly. That is when they put the property up for sale. The city can't be asked for anything more. They gave everyone a chance to save Stage Center and no one stepped up to sink anything into the money pit.

This recent challenge and any future challenges should be thrown out the window and let the demolition begin.

[kevinpate]

Substitute in 'non-profit foundation' for 'city' and you pretty much nailed it. It wasn't the city's structure to do anything with.

[OKVision4U]

When do we think we will see the "New Renderings" for this tower? ...or is this it?

[hoya]

It's fine for OKC to model itself on other cities. We have different "bones" than those cities do, so even if we do everything in our power to look like Boston, or New York, or San Francisco, or Dallas, we aren't going to be exactly like them. OKC has the "spread out suburb" thing down cold. We don't really need any help in that. We need to model our downtown area after cities that have very successful downtowns.

As far as Stage Center Tower, there's very little that can be said at this point. We don't have a final design, and everyone has basically given their reactions. Like the Mystery Tower thread, this one is going to drift for a while.

[progressiveboy]

cosmopolitan flair, class? To me Dallas is a sprawled out ugly mess, cities like Boston laugh at Dallas' lack of cosmopolitan flair and "class" as you say. When I visit the East Coast's smaller cities ( Providence,Hartford etc..) I feel I'm in a city with more "class" or Cosmopolitan flair as you put it! Dallas is a big city, but lets not put Dallas on a pedestal, and also not compare OKC to metro's 5-6 times as large!

As a resident of Dallas, I agree that Dallas has massive sprawl but ugly? Their highway system is far superior to anything that OKC ever will have! Developers spend more money on their buildings and developments than OKC. OKC has some "cheap" developers that are looking to make a fast buck. Look at all these ugly "prefab" and precast block buildings in OKC. Very uninspiring for a city that claims to be a "big league city". Yes, the east coast is far more cosmopolitan, quaint and diverse than Dallas, however, Dallas has tremendous wealth such as the toney Highland Park and Preston Hollow neighborhoods, putting Nichols Hills to shame. So with that being said, Dallas is way more cosmopolitan and forward thinking than OKC. Finally, I think OKC has so much potential to becoming a exciting place, however some people are just going to need to "change their mentality".

[s00nr1]

As a resident of Dallas, I agree that Dallas has massive sprawl but ugly? Their highway system is far superior to anything that OKC ever will have! Developers spend more money on their buildings and developments than OKC. OKC has some "cheap" developers that are looking to make a fast buck. Look at all these ugly "prefab" and precast block buildings in OKC. Very uninspiring for a city that claims to be a "big league city". Yes, the east coast is far more cosmopolitan, quaint and diverse than Dallas, however, Dallas has tremendous wealth such as the toney Highland Park and Preston Hollow neighborhoods, putting Nichols Hills to shame. So with that being said, Dallas is way more cosmopolitan and forward thinking than OKC. Finally, I think OKC has so much potential to becoming a exciting place, however some people are just going to need to "change their mentality".

Way overboard buddy. There is no need for the attack on OKC.

[progressiveboy]

Way overboard buddy. There is no need for the attack on OKC.

As I have stated in this thread numerous times, I am a native OK Cityan, born, raised, went to school and college in Oklahoma. OKC has great potential, however, will it live up to it's potential? Maybe a work in progress, however my hometown still needs lots of work to become a more exciting, vibrant city!

[soondoc]

Way overboard buddy. There is no need for the attack on OKC.

Actually he was 100 percent spot on. Until OKC changes its Minor League mentality, that's all it will ever be. Sadly, we do EVERYTHING at the cheapest, minimal standard, to developers filling their own pockets. Devon is one of the great achievements this city has seen in its history and I hope its not the last. We have a negative vibe around here that we can't do or achieve greatness. We tell ourselves why we can't do something rather than dream big and make things happen.

[Teo9969]

Actually he was 100 percent spot on. Until OKC changes its Minor League mentality, that's all it will ever be. Sadly, we do EVERYTHING at the cheapest, minimal standard, to developers filling their own pockets. Devon is one of the great achievements this city has seen in its history and I hope its not the last. We have a negative vibe around here that we can't do or achieve greatness. We tell ourselves why we can't do something rather than dream big and make things happen.

This is so monumentally wrong.

We do some things the cheapest, we do some things as conservatively as we can. But you're painting with an obscenely broad brush.

MAPS isn't cheap. Things like the Steel Yard and the 10th/Shartel Apts have not been cheaped out. Brands like Kitchen 324 located in an incredibly fantastic renovation of the Braniff is not cheap. Devon was not cheap. OCU has built several world-class facilities on their campus in the last 10 years. The Boathouse district has been anything but cheaped out, and OKC is regularly and more frequently landing developments like 21c. Hotel, Ambassador, things like the Fassler Hall/Dust Bowl development.

OKC is gaining developments like the GE research center and seeing lots of small but incredibly high quality development going on in more than just a handful of districts.

Are there still some not so great developments? Yes. Are we where we want to be? No. But you said EVERYTHING and that just makes your post look myopic and silly.

[Plutonic Panda]

Way overboard buddy. There is no need for the attack on OKC.

He was correct in that analysis. In fact, Dallas is already seeing billions of dollars in new investment along 635 due to the new reconstruction of the highway while people here are saying highways provide no economic benefit when in fact, highways drive, directly and indirectly, a huge percentage of the growth of cities. Dallas has an amazing road and highway network, one the OKC should try to emulate on a smaller scale that fits our needs.

[dmoor82]

Again, let's not even try to compare OKC to Dallas, it really isn't fair! TO ME, Dallas is ugly,and when I'm in Dallas I don't feel like I'm in a big city imo! OKC isn't pretty by any means either, but let's not make Dallas out to be a great oddity, it's not!

[okcpulse]

We need to stop holding OKC responsible for the condition of our highway system and stop pretending that Dallas on their own drives their freeway system. These are federally funded and maintained highways. The expansive freeway system in Dallas by design is out of necessity. The DFW metroplex population has exploded over the last 25 years, and the construction we've seen in the last decade is a reaction to that growth and a remediation for projected growth at the same rate. We easily forget that the transportation network in DFW is high volume, and not only moves a lot of passengers daily but high volumes of heavy freight as well that forces the infrastructure to take a beating around the clock. The aesthetics of the freeway system in Dallas is very nice, but this is something Oklahoma has not ignored in recent highway construction projects.

Meanwhile in Oklahoma City, which is a different animal than Dallas altogether and by no means should be compared, deals with steady growth. Oklahoma City's challenge is aging infrastructure that moves a steadily increasing volume of traffic and freight. Yes, OKC has outgrown its current freeway system but we can't act like it isn't being addressed. But again, out of necessity, a high-five interchange is not a need in Oklahoma City, it's a want. We shouldn't be building massive interchanges that belong in metro areas of 5 million+ designed to handle 250,000 or more vehicles a day. Oklahoma City can and is planning to construct the same type of interchanges but on a scale that fits the needs of a metro area that won't reach 2 million people until 2030 unless there is a drastic shift in growth patterns, something you can't sell to the U.S. department of transportation.

By 2030, it is likely that DFW will be in the neighborhood of 10 million people and city leaders there are being forced to plan and build accordingly. That alone does not make Dallas superior to OKC or is any more forward-thinking than we are. They have their own problems to deal with and solve. That's just the reality.

[Spartan]

I don't care where Spartan lives now, he is one of the more knowledgeable and informed posters on this site and he loves OKC. If you are trying to discredit him, you will have to do better than that. I don't always agree with his arguments but he has substance to his opinions.

Thank you Rover.

I agree with the sentiment shared by others in this thread that we tend to think small and this achieve small. I'm afraid Bricktown, not Devon Tower, is representative of the norm for us when we try and do something "world class."

[catch22]

We have not out grown our highways....

[josh]

cosmopolitan flair, class? To me Dallas is a sprawled out ugly mess, cities like Boston laugh at Dallas' lack of cosmopolitan flair and "class" as you say. When I visit the East Coast's smaller cities ( Providence,Hartford etc..) I feel I'm in a city with more "class" or Cosmopolitan flair as you put it! Dallas is a big city, but lets not put Dallas on a pedestal, and also not compare OKC to metro's 5-6 times as large!

That is apples and oranges.

Boston, along with most of the east coast, is some of the oldest real estate in this country. They were the first cities and metros. Their planning was considerably different than Dallas, which grew and developed post WWII. It, along with many of the sunbelt cities, developed in the era of the automobile and suburban tract housing. This is why the densest core city outside of NYC, Chicago, begins to sprawl out after a few miles as well.

OKC being better than Dallas is a subjective opinion. OKC being bigger than Dallas is a feat that will never happen. Just as Dallas will never be bigger than Los Angeles.

[dankrutka]

As a resident of Dallas, I agree that Dallas has massive sprawl but ugly? Their highway system is far superior to anything that OKC ever will have!

So, your first evidence that Dallas isn't ugly are their highways (which have far worse traffic problems than OKC - everything is relative to its environment)?!? I'm not here to say if Dallas or OKC is pretty or ugly in general as that's a pretty pointless and silly discussion, but the beginning of your argument FOR Dallas is pretty weak.

[HangryHippo]

As a resident of Dallas, I agree that Dallas has massive sprawl but ugly? Their highway system is far superior to anything that OKC ever will have! Developers spend more money on their buildings and developments than OKC. OKC has some "cheap" developers that are looking to make a fast buck. Look at all these ugly "prefab" and precast block buildings in OKC. Very uninspiring for a city that claims to be a "big league city". Yes, the east coast is far more cosmopolitan, quaint and diverse than Dallas, however, Dallas has tremendous wealth such as the toney Highland Park and Preston Hollow neighborhoods, putting Nichols Hills to shame. So with that being said, Dallas is way more cosmopolitan and forward thinking than OKC. Finally, I think OKC has so much potential to becoming a exciting place, however some people are just going to need to "change their mentality".

Spot on.