OG&E Tower

[Teo9969]

You're absolutely correct. OCU has long been one of the premier performing arts universities in the country.

That's a credit to the dance school, which is Top 5-10 in the country, not the music school, which as a whole is somewhere between Top 40 and Top 60. The Opera/Music Theater program is the strongest focus and is a Top 20 - 25 school in the country for that focus, but the instrumental program has some major deficiencies.

[Teo9969]

Count Basie's Orchestra and the modern jazz rhythm section have roots in Deep Deuce, before they ended up in Kansas City (which claimed the history). Charlie Christian was the first featured soloist on an electric guitar and a major influence on everyone from Chuck Berry and BB King to Jimi Hendrix. He was playing a Gibson ES-150 with the "Charlie Christian pickup" years before Les Paul designed his solid body electric, and he's in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame as an early influencer.

Bob Wills relocated to OKC from Waco before he found his biggest fame, and his jilted Texas sponsor hadn't extorted the OKC radio station carrying his show, OKC's Farmers Public Market Building would probably today be known as The Home of Bob Wills instead of Cain's in Tulsa.

OKC was very influential in the early Rock and Roll movement, including being home to the first female rock star, Rockabilly queen Wanda Jackson, who still lives here and is ALSO in the RnR HOF. As mentioned, great performing arts history out of OCU, which has produced multiple Broadway performers/stars.

When you factor the influence OKC and the surrounding metro has had on country music including Vince Gill, Toby Keith, Garth Brooks (the greatest-selling artist of all time list reads: 1. Beatles 2. Elvis 3. Garth), I think it's fair to say that OKC has actually had a pretty profound influence on music and the performing arts.

So…tell me where in OKC I can go to see a world-class musical act once every week?

The history means nothing if the culture doesn't care to embrace it and foster it.

Same thing with the Stage Center. We have a significant piece of architecture sitting on our porch, but that means nothing to anyone either from inside or outside the city because our culture doesn't embrace and foster it.

[Of Sound Mind]

So…tell me where in OKC I can go to see a world-class musical act once every week?

The history means nothing if the culture doesn't care to embrace it and foster it.

Same thing with the Stage Center. We have a significant piece of architecture sitting on our porch, but that means nothing to anyone either from inside or outside the city because our culture doesn't embrace and foster it.

What does that say about the arts community itself, that it couldn't seem to sufficiently fund and properly support this "treasured" piece of architecture?

[MustangGT]

What does that say about the arts community itself, that it couldn't seem to sufficiently fund and properly support this "treasured" piece of architecture?

An open secret within the arts community is they have never had much use for the building and secretly most of them would probably prefer to see it GONE. Structural art is not something the snooty pinky finger extended crowd cares very much about.

[bchris02]

OKC gets little recognition for its music history. You think Seattle, you think grunge. You think New Orleans, you think jazz. We don't have any association like that. The average person doesn't think OKC equals any of the people he just listed off.

That's not saying we don't have good musical talent that has come out of here. But people don't traditionally associate us with it.

And I am highly offended he left off Color Me Badd.

This.

It's not that OKC has not had any great talent or music come out of here. Quite the contrary. This simply isn't a city known for its musical legacy like many others. People outside of OKC probably know the Flaming Lips, Toby Keith, and Garth Brooks but it pretty much ends there.

[Teo9969]

What does that say about the arts community itself, that it couldn't seem to sufficiently fund and properly support this "treasured" piece of architecture?

lol…the arts community…

There is a fundamental misunderstanding of the Arts by the majority of this country. The Arts are not a commodity created/manufactured and disbursed to individuals…that is called entertainment. The Arts are a COLLABORATION between those who study and train to express themselves in a variety of media (artists) and those who are interested enough to engage the artists and seek to find expressions that edify and describe the world around them (community).

When the majority of the community cannot be bothered to collaborate because entertainment is a far easier (and "less expensive") avenue to satisfy their visual/aural/spatial/etc. cravings there's so little artists can really do to bring art to life in a meaningful way.

The subject of the linked article is the second such attempt in as many years.

The Arts are still recovering from a very tumultuous century, and not all communities are making the strides to see that recovery…Entertainment has taken over in the last 75 years, and in this particular market the sports variety of entertainment has seen huge gains thanks to OU football.


ON EDIT: In other words, Artists can't be expected to be business people, and they are NEVER EVER EVER going to look at something from the perspective of "Does this make financial sense". Ever. Never will that happen. Expecting them to come up with a fiscally viable plan is symptomatic of a complete misunderstanding of the Arts.

[Teo9969]

An open secret within the arts community is they have never had much use for the building and secretly most of them would probably prefer to see it GONE. Structural art is not something the snooty pinky finger extended crowd cares very much about.

And this, my friends, is the average Oklahoman's perspective:

Arts Community = The Snooty Pinky Finger Extended Crowd

[OKVision4U]

This.

It's not that OKC has not had any great talent or music come out of here. Quite the contrary. This simply isn't a city known for its musical legacy like many others. People outside of OKC probably know the Flaming Lips, Toby Keith, and Garth Brooks but it pretty much ends there.

...Reba... Carrie Underwood.... Neal Schon ( Journey ) They were kinda big for the past few decades.

[LocoAko]

...Reba... Carrie Underwood.... Neal Schon ( Journey ) They were kinda big for the past few decades.

I didn't realize Checotah and Chockie were in the immediate OKC metro...

[betts]

Jeff Speck's take on the Stage Center Tower graphics currently available:

The replacement bldg is banal, unimaginative, and adds nothing to the streetscape. A better bldg would make this easier.

[Pete]

Way, way off topic here gang.

This thread is about the Stage Center Tower.

Thanks.

[Just the facts]

Jeff Speck's take on the Stage Center Tower graphics currently available:

The replacement bldg is banal, unimaginative, and adds nothing to the streetscape. A better bldg would make this easier.

Just so I can save Steve the time, Jeff Speck hasn't seen the plans for the new building. None of us have.

This is why we should just do away with demo permit process and make the demo implied in the issuance of a building permit. No demos until everything is in place to build something else.

[catch22]

Just so I can save Steve the time, Jeff Speck hasn't seen the plans for the new building. None of us have.

This is why we should just do away with demo permit process and make the demo implied in the issuance of a building permit. No demos until everything is in place to build something else.

Exactly. I like Jeff, but he is wrong on this.

[Rover]

That's a credit to the dance school, which is Top 5-10 in the country, not the music school, which as a whole is somewhere between Top 40 and Top 60. The Opera/Music Theater program is the strongest focus and is a Top 20 - 25 school in the country for that focus, but the instrumental program has some major deficiencies.

Voice/performing arts is considered top 10 in the country. Very hard to get a scholarship position. BTW, OU performing arts is top 10 as well.

[Spartan]

Just so I can save Steve the time, Jeff Speck hasn't seen the plans for the new building. None of us have.

This is why we should just do away with demo permit process and make the demo implied in the issuance of a building permit. No demos until everything is in place to build something else.

Agreed. This is standard in most cities that have this urban process unfolding.

I so hate to keep using Cleveland as an example, but its a good demolition case study bc by 1900 the current city limits were completely filled out and most of the city was built by 1850. My hood is a former Civil War campground. Cleveland's history is nothing more than this insane churning of history and neighborhoods and structures, entire chunks of a huge city shifting uses every few decades, industry moving around and spreading its impact around, and so on. The reason I bring Cleveland up with regards to zoning issues is bc it and NYC are the origin of Euclidian zoning (ie., Euclid, OH of Euclid v. Ambler fame).

Euclid Avenue (Cleve's "Main Street") is arguably the most historically dynamic street in American history with the extremely dramatic changes it has experienced, some tragic, some magnificent. This whole process relies entirely on a demolition permitting procedure.

Thus, having a good demolition permitting procedure is absolutely the smallest thing you can do to make the greatest impact in how an existing built environment changes. When you link the process of taking the old and replacing with new what you do is create a bargaining position that didn't exist before. Suddenly the new is viewed within context of the old and clear, cogent decisions are made. The public review process works to ensure that the new is as good as the old, not worse.

[betts]

Just so I can save Steve the time, Jeff Speck hasn't seen the plans for the new building. None of us have.

This is why we should just do away with demo permit process and make the demo implied in the issuance of a building permit. No demos until everything is in place to build something else.

Right. He's seen precisely as much as the DDRC did when they voted to demo. Which was part of the reason for posting Jeff's comment.

I agree. Why allow a demo if you are being told there are no architectural renderings for what will replace it and the placeholder sketches are banal and unimaginative?

[Teo9969]

Voice/performing arts is considered top 10 in the country. Very hard to get a scholarship position. BTW, OU performing arts is top 10 as well.

LOL @ OCU being in the Top 10.

Indiana, Eastman, Rice, Houston, Michigan, Curtis Institute, San Francisco Conservatory, Yale, Manhattan School of Music, Oberlin, Peabody, Colorado, Northwestern, North Texas, Texas @ Austin, Cincinnati CoM, USC, University of Missouri - Kansas City, Illionois are all substantially better music schools overall with ≥ vocal programs.

There are at least a handful more of schools I can't think of right now are better overall music schools than OCU but whose vocal programs are either about even with OCU's or slightly worse..

And I'd love to know who told you OU is remotely close to a Top 10 PA school…They're not even a better than average school amongst the Big 12.

[Rover]

LOL @ OCU being in the Top 10.

Indiana, Eastman, Rice, Houston, Michigan, Curtis Institute, San Francisco Conservatory, Yale, Manhattan School of Music, Oberlin, Peabody, Colorado, Northwestern, North Texas, Texas @ Austin, Cincinnati CoM, USC, University of Missouri - Kansas City, Illionois are all substantially better music schools overall with ≥ vocal programs.

There are at least a handful more of schools I can't think of right now are better overall music schools than OCU but whose vocal programs are either about even with OCU's or slightly worse..

And I'd love to know who told you OU is remotely close to a Top 10 PA school…They're not even a better than average school amongst the Big 12.

Not trying to argue, but your list is off as far as vocal music performance goes. I have a very close relative there now and went through all the recruiting, researching, etc. with her. Most professional vocal coaches would not agree with your list regarding vocal performance.

[blwarch]

Stage Center Tower is a project that I would welcome on nearly any other (mostly) open block in OKC. I would not trade it for Stage Center. I have been going to Stage Center since before I completed my degree in the late 80's. I have seen music, performances, plays, storytelling, and professional presentations at Stage Center. Stage Center used to house our local AIA chapter offices. Stage Center used to house OVAC. Stage Center was the designated host facility for the Statewide Historic Preservation Conference in the early 90's (pre-renovation, I think). In addition to great sight lines in the performance spaces, it offers many spaces that during intermissions and fund raising events lend themselves to casual interaction both inside and out. Rainey Williams can go anywhere with OG&E. This is a zero sum gain. Trade one building (or several) for a shiny new one.

I am an architect. I dig tall buildings. I like the idea of local firms getting opportunities to flex their design muscles. I believe we can compete with the best that there is out there from a design standpoint. The Stage Center Tower can begin to fill up some of the acres of open space in the CBD. I just don't want to have this at the expense of a singularly important (if not ugly) work of architecture. If we don't want to consider historic buildings in the Downtown Design District, just remove the language form the ordinance and I will shut up.

[HOT ROD]

^ here here

[coov23]

Stage Center Tower is a project that I would welcome on nearly any other (mostly) open block in OKC. I would not trade it for Stage Center. I have been going to Stage Center since before I completed my degree in the late 80's. I have seen music, performances, plays, storytelling, and professional presentations at Stage Center. Stage Center used to house our local AIA chapter offices. Stage Center used to house OVAC. Stage Center was the designated host facility for the Statewide Historic Preservation Conference in the early 90's (pre-renovation, I think). In addition to great sight lines in the performance spaces, it offers many spaces that during intermissions and fund raising events lend themselves to casual interaction both inside and out. Rainey Williams can go anywhere with OG&E. This is a zero sum gain. Trade one building (or several) for a shiny new one.

I am an architect. I dig tall buildings. I like the idea of local firms getting opportunities to flex their design muscles. I believe we can compete with the best that there is out there from a design standpoint. The Stage Center Tower can begin to fill up some of the acres of open space in the CBD. I just don't want to have this at the expense of a singularly important (if not ugly) work of architecture. If we don't want to consider historic buildings in the Downtown Design District, just remove the language form the ordinance and I will shut up.

There in lies the problem. Only a select few view that rundown building as, "historic". It had its time--very,very short time-- but it's not historic like film exchange, or Skirvin, was historic. That building has been more of an issue than it has been worth it. Again, are we deemed to pay for the minorities view on this, again? If so, it's another in a long line of few get their way over the many. Such a shame in society.

[Spartan]

So spell this out for me, are you making a civil rights based argument for demolishing Stage Center?

[catch22]

This is absolutely 100% ridiculous. This whole thing.

If I had an original Picasso, and announced to the world I was going to light it on fire. Someone would probably come out and buy it off my hands to save it.

The city of Detroit had private individuals rally to raise $300,000,000 to save some form of art up there. I don't recall what it was right now. But the people of that city raised $300 million to rescue the arts.

This developer has come in, and said, I want to tear down the Stage Center. The people with the resources to save it, turned their eye.

The people who had ideas to repurpose the Stage Center, couldn't convince anyone to fund their ideas.

What are you going to do to save it? Come out with more ideas? If the people who want to save this, can convince investors, or use their own finances to save this. Go for it. This has been literally rotting for the past several years. It's not like this was hidden and just now revealed to us. If someone wanted to save it, there has been plenty of time to do it. There has been plenty of time to draw up some plans, and gather financing. Again, this wasn't hiding behind a tarp or a fake facade (like the Uhaul Building) only now to be discovered. It has been sitting in front of us for years, never once being a profitable building. Never once being a regularly occupied building. And quite recently, acting as a storm water containment facility. Where have the people been to save this building when it wasn't under threat of demolition?

Is it only now important because it's being threatened? It was not important enough for anyone to generate a viable plan, while it rotted for years. Only now people want to save it?

No one has done it. Now that someone has purchased the property and the (literally) vacant and rotting building. People are up in arms. This is ridiculous.

[mkjeeves]

Kickstarter!

It's probably way too late for that.

[Spartan]

This is absolutely 100% ridiculous. This whole thing.

If I had an original Picasso, and announced to the world I was going to light it on fire. Someone would probably come out and buy it off my hands to save it.

The city of Detroit had private individuals rally to raise $300,000,000 to save some form of art up there. I don't recall what it was right now. But the people of that city raised $300 million to rescue the arts.

This developer has come in, and said, I want to tear down the Stage Center. The people with the resources to save it, turned their eye.

The people who had ideas to repurpose the Stage Center, couldn't convince anyone to fund their ideas.

What are you going to do to save it? Come out with more ideas? If the people who want to save this, can convince investors, or use their own finances to save this. Go for it. This has been literally rotting for the past several years. It's not like this was hidden and just now revealed to us. If someone wanted to save it, there has been plenty of time to do it. There has been plenty of time to draw up some plans, and gather financing. Again, this wasn't hiding behind a tarp or a fake facade (like the Uhaul Building) only now to be discovered. It has been sitting in front of us for years, never once being a profitable building. Never once being a regularly occupied building. And quite recently, acting as a storm water containment facility. Where have the people been to save this building when it wasn't under threat of demolition?

Is it only now important because it's being threatened? It was not important enough for anyone to generate a viable plan, while it rotted for years. Only now people want to save it?

No one has done it. Now that someone has purchased the property and the (literally) vacant and rotting building. People are up in arms. This is ridiculous.

Well there was a flood. Then there was a sham RFP. Then it was sold to a developer.

Help me understand how your narrative fits into what really happened.