OG&E Tower

[pw405]

Hmmm..... Stage Center: OKC planners recommend denying application for razing of old theater | News OK

[Prunepicker]

What are you talking about? I wasn't even referring to the Stage Center.

You are absolutely correct, however, two nights ago you were dreaming
about the Stage Center and was agreeing with my former post.

Believe me. I was there.

[Plutonic Panda]

You are absolutely correct, however, two nights ago you were dreaming
about the Stage Center and was agreeing with my former post.

Believe me. I was there.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmmmm, ok.

[Mississippi Blues]

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmmmm, ok.

Run….

[soonerguru]

Okay, back to discussing the proposed Stage Center project...

The Downtown Design Review Committee meets Jan. 16th to consider the demolition application. Conceptual drawings were submitted as well but for information only, as the exact design will have to be reviewed by the committee separately. Also, remember that the committee cannot withhold demolition approval based on what is to be built (or not built) in the future.

Rainey Williams submitted the 164-page report done by Webb Management Services on behalf of the former Stage Center owners, which demonstrated the need for millions in renovations.

The only conceptual drawings were the ones we have already seen and are attached in the article on the top of this thread.

There was a formal protest letter from the Central Oklahoma Institute of Architects, with 76 pages of supporting documents.


However, two interesting things of note: 1) The planning staff is recommending to deny the application to demolish (see first image below); and 2) In the conceptual plan introduction, it's revealed that the second 8-12 story building would be marketed to other developers, not developed by Williams (second image, item #2):

OK. I've been patiently awaiting more information, but this surely doesn't fit the bill for "world class."

Another example of over promising and under delivering. OKC's history is littered with them, but we've grown up a little. I'm not sure what demonstrable credibility Williams had earned, but put me in the group that is rapidly souring on this whole deal.

[pw405]

Speaking of Stage Center, does anybody have thoughts about the recent news regarding that it should stay?

(This would mean that the proposed "Stage Center Tower" would not be built, or at least not on this site.)

Ahh... now that I think about, let's fill these pages with bickering instead!!

[soonerguru]

Speaking of Stage Center, does anybody have thoughts about the recent news regarding that it should stay?

(This would mean that the proposed "Stage Center Tower" would not be built, or at least not on this site.)

Ahh... now that I think about, let's fill these pages with bickering instead!!

Hint: go back and read a couple of pages.

[soonerguru]

Forgive me for being a newbie OKC resident (only 5 years), but what is the big deal with Stage Center? Are people...

a.) that attached to it
b.) if not attached to it, would rather leave it be until someone guaranteed a better offer than what is out there from RW
c.) are there other lookers at this piece of property?

It's the most internationally renowned piece of architecture in OKC. So, regardless of our feelings about it, it is noteworthy.

People have said it cannot be rehabilitated and attempts have been made to find a use for it that have thus far failed.

As to your final question: who knows? This was conducted behind closed doors. However, we have heard about the potential for other suitors to that property. So, it's entirely possible that this was the best possible use of the property pitched to the people behind closed doors. It's also entirely possible that the pitched uses of other suitors were better.

[soonerguru]

I was the first person who posted that possibility in this thread and everybody said I was just being extremely negative and glass half empty.

We all have to realize Rainey isn't building this for civic/community pride. It's about money and if Rainey can pave this into surface parking, flip it, and make a few million it will be a success as far as his pocketbook is concerned.

Well then you should read that OKCBiz piece. He goes on and on about his love for the city and his grand vision for our skyline -- and the "gleaming tower" of at least 20 stories he was planning. At this point, whatever credibility he had has taken a serious hit. What can we actually believe, considering the "world class" hyperbole he's already used to pump up this project?

[Mississippi Blues]

OK. I've been patiently awaiting more information, but this surely doesn't fit the bill for "world class."

Another example of over promising and under delivering. OKC's history is littered with them, but we've grown up a little. I'm not sure what demonstrable credibility Williams had earned, but put me in the group that is rapidly souring on this whole deal.

It's the most internationally renowned piece of architecture in OKC. So, regardless of our feelings about it, it is noteworthy.

People have said it cannot be rehabilitated and attempts have been made to find a use for it that have thus far failed.

As to your final question: who knows? This was conducted behind closed doors. However, we have heard about the potential for other suitors to that property. So, it's entirely possible that this was the best possible use of the property pitched to the people behind closed doors. It's also entirely possible that the pitched uses of other suitors were better.

Well then you should read that OKCBiz piece. He goes on and on about his love for the city and his grand vision for our skyline -- and the "gleaming tower" of at least 20 stories he was planning. At this point, whatever credibility he had has taken a serious hit. What can we actually believe, considering the "world class" hyperbole he's already used to pump up this project?

Get out of my head. It's like we're connected. Everything you said, I agree 120%.

[PWitty]

At this point I would not be sad to see the SC demo permit be denied. But I would want a new tower proposal to eventually take its place, not have it continue to sit there. We'll see I guess.

[tomokc]

There are still several steps to go, but this deal has simply become this:

The site was purchased for $4.275 million. A 14-16 story office building will be constructed on the east side as a build-to-suit for a local utility company. A large parking garage will be built to the south. The west side will be sold to another development group.

I know many people supported the initial promise of this development, but what it has become is vastly different, and many have changed their minds about it. Some feel lied to. I suspect that proponents of this original project will now be reserving judgment until all the facts are in, because new - and disturbing - ones seem to be coming out all the time.

[OkieNate]

This smelled bad from the very begin. Rainey Williams has zero regard for Oklahoma City. Hoyasooner called it early also that all RW really wanted to do was build a parking garage. The second I try to shake some skepticism, I get the most potent dose of reality. Are DDRC meeting open to the public?

[jccouger]

Welcome to the bandwagon, everybody. We saved a spot for you.

Williams has lied to us over and over and over again at the expense of him being able to make a deal that involves ZERO risk or chance. "world class" "something okc citizens can be proud of" "at least 20 stories" . Hes been taking a safe route, with the guarantee of making a profit. Is this what business leaders should do? No. Risk should be a part of all business deals, and he has taken NONE.

First, he got a sweetheart deal on the property. Even if he decided to sell the property today he'd make millions of dollars.
Second, Hes building a giant parking garage (the sole purpose of this entire development) because he knows the demand is high for parking downtown. Though it is needed, IT IS NOT NEEDED ON THE MOST PRIME REAL ESTATE IN THE STATE
Third, He has a guarantee from a company (a public monopolistic utility company) that will be occupy every single available space in his building, and he is willing to decrease the size of his building at the drop of a hat to keep them as the tenant.
Fourth, there is now a POSSIBILITY he can make EVEN MORE MONEY by leasing space for SOMEBODY ELSE to build another building on his property.

He didn't even have the study done to prove that the stage center isn't viable anymore, the people that sold it to him did. He hasn't even have to put in the work to tear down the Stage Center.

This. Is. Bull****.

[Pete]

I'm sure Rainey Williams is not a bad guy, just someone who doesn't have the resources to pull off anything more than a build-to-suit office building with the most stable of all long-term tenants, and a parking garage which everyone knows will be full the day it opens.

He probably wanted to do a bigger building with spec space and another project on the same block that would be truly his own development (rather than OG&E's) but couldn't pull it off. For all we know, he may need to flip the other parcel just to make this deal work.


I suspect what we are now seeing is quite different than what he pitched to the foundation that chose him over others. And I would love to know what the other projects would have been.

[betts]

This smelled bad from the very begin. Rainey Williams has zero regard for Oklahoma City. Hoyasooner called it early also that all RW really wanted to do was build a parking garage. The second I try to shake some skepticism, I get the most potent dose of reality. Are DDRC meeting open to the public?

DDRC meetings are not only open to the public, but you can speak if you wish, before they vote.

[LakeEffect]

I'm actually not sure about that...

I thought the City Council only got involved if the applicant wanted to appeal a decision.

DDRC makes a "final" decision. If RW is denied, he can appeal to the Board of Adjustment. If the BOA denies his appeal, he can go to Circuit Court.

City Council has no official or unofficial role in this process, other than to make comments at meetings or appear before the Committee. I suppose they could even go so far as to pass a Resolution in support of one side, but that's advisory just the same.

[bchris02]

I'm sure Rainey Williams is not a bad guy, just someone who doesn't have the resources to pull off anything more than a build-to-suit office building with the most stable of all long-term tenants, and a parking garage which everyone knows will be full the day it opens.

He probably wanted to do a bigger building with spec space and another project on the same block that would be truly his own development (rather than OG&E's) but couldn't pull it off. For all we know, he may need to flip the other parcel just to make this deal work.


I suspect what we are now seeing is quite different than what he pitched to the foundation that chose him over others. And I would love to know what the other projects would have been.

The thing is these developments are ALWAYS scaled down from the original concept. However, the fact that RW's ambitions have been scaled down so much prior to even demolition is a terrible sign for this project. If this moved forward as is, I would say this is as bad if not worse than the Randy Hogan debacle.

[Pete]

DDRC makes a "final" decision. If RW is denied, he can appeal to the Board of Adjustment. If the BOA denies his appeal, he can go to Circuit Court.

City Council has no official or unofficial role in this process, other than to make comments at meetings or appear before the Committee. I suppose they could even go so far as to pass a Resolution in support of one side, but that's advisory just the same.

Thanks for the clarification!

Can you explain why some development items -- like PUD's and liquor licenses -- end up on the City Council docket?

[Spartan]

The thing is we all got Rainey'd. Steve Lackmeyer wrote in his article first announcing the sale: "If you doubt Rainey Williams, then you don't know Rainey Williams." He was right. Nobody knows Rainey Williams. And now we are supposed to let him tear down our most architecturally significant building and THEN use up our most-prime development site (because the only site that is better is being wasted for a convention center) for a no-risk small-scale development.

If OG+E wants a tower then they need to build it themselves. RW won't do as a shadow developer. DDRC can't evaluate his proposal, just his demo permit. That means those of you who want a better development better get on the Stage Center bandwagon, and quick. The question you've gotta ask is whether what we're getting is better than what we have or could have - most everyone would say the answer is no, so that makes you all preservationists on this day in history. Welcome aboard.

[Pete]

For the record, I also never believed that OG&E wasn't firmly attached to this project.

All the bluster about "trying to find an anchor tenant" and "don't assume anything about who the tenant(s) may be" seemed like subterfuge because I had heard from people that know that OG&E was involved long before the property sold, which I posted here months ago.

I also doubt Rainey Williams would have bought this property -- being a former Enogex board member -- without OG&E fully on-board. Especially now that it appears that's the only part of this development he'll be able to pull off.


So here we are months later, with all this speculation and conjecture and hints and promises and talk about a "world class high-rise" and it's nothing more than OG&E's new headquarters and a huge parking garage.

That in itself may be perfectly acceptable, but this feels like a complete manipulation just so OG&E can get the spot they wanted all along while at the same time claiming they are just a coincidental tenant in a project that was going to be built anyway.


If everyone would have been upfront about this, I wouldn't be so concerned. But the way this has all been handled seems like a throw back to the Old Boys Club where everything is done by a few well-connected people and then the public is manipulated into thinking it's all free enterprise at work.

[OkieNate]

For the record, I also never believed that OG&E wasn't firmly attached to this project.

All the bluster about "trying to find an anchor tenant" and "don't assume anything about who the tenant(s) may be" seemed like subterfuge because I had heard from people that know that OG&E was involved long before the property sold, which I posted here months ago.

I also doubt Rainey Williams would have bought this property -- being a former Enogex board member -- without OG&E fully on-board. Especially now that it appears that's the only part of this development he'll be able to pull off.


So here we are months later, with all this speculation and conjecture and hints and promises and talk about a "world class high-rise" and it's nothing more than OG&E's new headquarters and a huge parking garage.

That in itself may be perfectly acceptable, but this feels like a complete manipulation just so OG&E can get the spot they wanted all along while at the same time claiming they are just a coincidental tenant in a project that was going to be built anyway.


If everyone would have been upfront about this, I wouldn't be so concerned. But the way this has all been handled seems like a throw back to the Old Boys Club where everything is done by a few well-connected people and then the public is manipulated into thinking it's all free enterprise at work.

I've been holding off on this accusation because I realize how serious it is, but the time has come. This whole thing is looking like collusion more and more.

col·lu·sion noun \kə-ˈlü-zhən\
: secret cooperation for an illegal or dishonest purpose

[Pete]

^

I don't think it's a serious accusation... No laws were broken and these parties are free to act as they'd like. It's their properties and money, after all.

I just resent the ruse and see right through it.


And BTW, this isn't altogether different than what Devon is doing with Nick Preftakes. They are clearly underwriting all the property west of their new complex, which is the only reason he's been able to do absolutely nothing with that block for pushing seven years now.

At the same time, the beloved Lunch Box was evicted for some strange and unknown reasons and that space is just sitting empty along with everything else on that block except the city-owned building.

If Devon had just purchased those properties out-right, there would be much, much more scrutiny over the state of those properties and how they've handled tenants. As it is, not too many people care what Nick Preftakes does or doesn't do.

[jccouger]

The thing is we all got Rainey'd. Steve Lackmeyer wrote in his article first announcing the sale: "If you doubt Rainey Williams, then you don't know Rainey Williams." He was right. Nobody knows Rainey Williams. And now we are supposed to let him tear down our most architecturally significant building and THEN use up our most-prime development site (because the only site that is better is being wasted for a convention center) for a no-risk small-scale development.

If OG+E wants a tower then they need to build it themselves. RW won't do as a shadow developer. DDRC can't evaluate his proposal, just his demo permit. That means those of you who want a better development better get on the Stage Center bandwagon, and quick. The question you've gotta ask is whether what we're getting is better than what we have or could have - most everyone would say the answer is no, so that makes you all preservationists on this day in history. Welcome aboard.

Exactly. If somebody wants to get this done they need to take the lead. This whole Williams/OG&E duel partnership is so bogus and manipulative. Save the Stage Center. If we aren't getting something that is worthwhile to the public in any way shape or form then scrap this deal. Who cares if the city isn't currently collecting taxes on this one parcel of land, we are doing fine without it. It's not like we don't have thousands of other debilitated buildings around the city we also aren't collecting taxes on. If they build this building on any different parcel of land the city would still be collecting roughly the same amount of taxes regardless, so why tear down the most internationally recognized building in our entire state?

For the record, I also never believed that OG&E wasn't firmly attached to this project.

All the bluster about "trying to find an anchor tenant" and "don't assume anything about who the tenant(s) may be" seemed like subterfuge because I had heard from people that know that OG&E was involved long before the property sold, which I posted here months ago.

I also doubt Rainey Williams would have bought this property -- being a former Enogex board member -- without OG&E fully on-board. Especially now that it appears that's the only part of this development he'll be able to pull off.


So here we are months later, with all this speculation and conjecture and hints and promises and talk about a "world class high-rise" and it's nothing more than OG&E's new headquarters and a huge parking garage.

That in itself may be perfectly acceptable, but this feels like a complete manipulation just so OG&E can get the spot they wanted all along while at the same time claiming they are just a coincidental tenant in a project that was going to be built anyway.


If everyone would have been upfront about this, I wouldn't be so concerned. But the way this has all been handled seems like a throw back to the Old Boys Club where everything is done by a few well-connected people and then the public is manipulated into thinking it's all free enterprise at work.

B.I.N.G.O.

[BoulderSooner]

I've been holding off on this accusation because I realize how serious it is, but the time has come. This whole thing is looking like collusion more and more.

col·lu·sion noun \kə-ˈlü-zhən\
: secret cooperation for an illegal or dishonest purpose

This is ridiculous. What exactly do you think was done illegally?

This is a reasonable demo of a blighted non reasonably salvageable structure and it should go foward