OG&E Tower

[Pete]

Yes, I 100% understand this, that is why I worded my question they way I did. I asked about the real estate. I know you cannot put a value on what something COULD be, but that 3.15 acres in downtown OKC for 4.275, seems like it would be worth more. Especially given what is currently around it, MBG, Devon, up and coming AA, and Film row.

As I've mentioned, I'm surprised at the relatively low sales price as well.

Several other properties around OKC have sold for more per acre.

[OkieNate]

Very much apples and oranges here. You are comparing the square footage of raw land that will have to to remedied to a fully functioning, largely leased out shopping center. And I take some issue with this notion that there were better deals out there because, simply put, nobody knows how those would have transpired. The history of this city is rife with grand, somewhat unrealistic promises that never see the light of day.

Do not put words in my mouth. I said other offers, not better offers. Obviously they liked RW's best since they picked him. Thanks for you input though, I thought the property/business on the land at Brixton for sure had something to do with the price. Yet I still think $4.275 mil for 3.15 acres of prime downtown real estate sounds like a sweetheart deal.

[Pete]

Although it's always hard to compare downtown properties, the City offered the Brewers $6 million for the Santa Fe Station and it sits on about 1.25 acres.

[catch22]

Although it's always hard to compare downtown properties, the City offered the Brewers $6 million for the Santa Fe Station and it sits on about 1.25 acres.

A functioning building with a tenant, more leasable space pretty much ready to go, and a rail line on top of it. Also brings in parking revenue.

[Richard at Remax]

Pete, any way to know what his promised development was to the committee to get the nod? and if so what are their reactions to the site plan? makes you wonder what every other entity was proposing...

[Pete]

Pete, any way to know what his promised development was to the committee to get the nod? and if so what are their reactions to the site plan? makes you wonder what every other entity was proposing...

The meeting is set for Jan. 16th, which means they will soon be uploading the agenda and all the materials that were submitted.

I suspect it will merely be the renderings that have already been shared, but we'll know for sure in a few days.

[Snowman]

Although it's always hard to compare downtown properties, the City offered the Brewers $6 million for the Santa Fe Station and it sits on about 1.25 acres.

Did they up the offer, I thought at one point it was closer to 2 than 6

[Pete]

Did they up the offer, I thought at one point it was closer to 2 than 6

Yes, to try and avoid going to trial with the Brewers, who were insisting on $23 million.

[Urbanized]

Pete, you know as well as anyone on here that was just a negotiation tactic. They were obviously trying to send a message by countering with an over-the-moon price as much as they believed they were being low-balled. At the end of the day the first offer in that negotiation proved to be woefully low, so it seems there might have been something to it. Nobody (including the Brewers) expected them to get anywhere near $23 million.

By the way, if you were going to build that train station in that location to that standard from scratch today, you would probably end up spending closer to $23 million than $2 million. And in this case there is no doubt that the buyer wanted that place as much for the existing facility as for the land.

[Pete]

Did the deal end up being struck for $6 million for SF Station?

[PWitty]

Portland is one of the most sophisticated urban environments in the world. They don't compare themselves to Dallas, but rather Paris and Berlin. They are a real example of American exceptionalism, a term which has actually come to mean crappiness that we like. SLC is also a dynamic, new urbanist stronghold. Completely Republican, very comparable culturally, and their downtown skyline is basically the NWX with a Temple. They like it that way to preserve the sight lines of mountains and the Temple.


A long ways to go? OKC has a phenomenal skyline for a metro of 1.3 million. Probably the best skyline in class.

Spartan, you read my mind. I was going to post this exact thing about Portland last night but didn't.

[PWitty]

Great post.

This is one reason I compare OKC to Charlotte. Other than the fact I lived in Charlotte and loved it, there are some development similarities. The first picture of Charlotte above looks very OKCish pre-Devon, except that Charlotte lacked urban bones. Despite that though, Charlotte today is far and away ahead of OKC in terms of urban feel, and its all because of relatively recent development. OKC though has enough history left that if it experienced half the boom Charlotte did, it could come out ahead.

Being in the shadow of Dallas will tamper OKC's economic growth prospects. Most corporate relocations are going to go to Dallas and not OKC. I don't think OKC will or even can experienced the type of boom Charlotte did that created the skyline you see above. This city just doesn't have the momentum they do. That doesn't mean it can't transform its skyline with a few modern looking skyscrapers and continue to infill with low-rise residential.

Bchris, how close is Atlanta to Charlotte? Isn't it about the same distance? It doesn't seem that it's proximity to Atlanta hampered its development. I don't see why OKC can't do the same.

[soonerliberal]

Bchris, how close is Atlanta to Charlotte? Isn't it about the same distance? It doesn't seem that it's proximity to Atlanta hampered its development. I don't see why OKC can't do the same.

Atlanta is often seen as Charlotte's big brother. It's about 245 miles, a very similar distance as OKC is to Dallas. Charlotte has thrived largely because of BofA and Wachovia. It is amazing how many native New Yorkers live here. However, the city has been able to diversity a decent amount.. there are over 10,000 energy related jobs here now as well.

[bchris02]

Bchris, how close is Atlanta to Charlotte? Isn't it about the same distance? It doesn't seem that it's proximity to Atlanta hampered its development. I don't see why OKC can't do the same.

Atlanta is slightly farther from Charlotte than DFW is from OKC. You don't see a lot of Atlanta envy in Charlotte and in fact most people I knew never went to Atlanta except for maybe to go to a Braves game. There is no need to as Charlotte has pretty much everything. Charlotte has grown out of Atlanta's shadow in a way OKC has not yet escaped Dallas' influence. Economically speaking, one HUGE difference is Charlotte has a hub airport that is the ninth largest in the US. This somewhat severs the city's reliance on Atlanta as well. While OKC has a decent amount of flights for a spoke airport, it has been said numerous times on this board and elsewhere that having a hub dramatically increases desirability when it comes to corporate relocations.

[Pete]

What is happening in Salt Lake City is interesting and perhaps OKC could learn from much of what they've done and are planning. But even though it's a socially conservative city, that doesn't at all mean that the two places are closely correlated. SLC and Utah are fully half Mormon, and there is a very tight-knit, well-organized group all pulling on the same rope. I've done quite a bit of business there and it's a completely different animal than almost anywhere else due to the Mormon presence. They are also geographically constrained by the Great Salt Lake, the mountains and other geographical features. That in itself forces density and is completely different from Great Plains cities.

Portland is amazing -- I've spent a ton of time there. However, OKC couldn't be any more different culturally and geographically so I don't see how there is any remote hope of copying what they've done. Maybe some small pieces, but they are nowhere near a realistic model for OKC.

I haven't heard one person say they want to use Dallas or Houston as a model, and Austin is awesome but again, unique in a way that wouldn't translate to OKC except in some very limited ways.

I think the most realistic model would be Denver. Even though there are mountains they don't really constrain growth and yes, it's a million times more liberal than OKC, but you could say that about most larger cities outside of Texas. Big chunks of Colorado are very conservative, after all (see Colorado Springs).


Of course we all want the walkability of Berlin and Paris and Portland and Boston, but that's not realistic in practice or even in concept.

[Spartan]

Pete: While I disagree that OKC can't be exceptional, I agree that Denver is definitely our closest/best model. The vibe OKC is building is very Denver-like. Especially at I-40 and Council, in the shadow of Trash Mountain.



Denver, btw, actually has very few skyscrapers that would be tall enough for the posters in this thread. Maybe 5 would be acceptably tall enough. The skyline is exceptionally garnished and built-up with mid-rises and legit DENSITY. I could be wrong on this but I think they actually had a law on the books preserving sight lines of the mountains from the Capitol.

[Pete]

Never, ever said or implied that OKC could not be exceptional -- just that there is more than one path to that goal.

I consider Denver pretty exceptional, especially their downtown and urban core.


There is something to learn from every city but you also have to create a realistic roadmap on how to get from where you are to where you want to be, otherwise the first steps will never even be taken.

People need to be able to articulate and visualize goals, and OKC using a city like Denver allows that.


We can also use Dallas and Houston as examples of what we DON'T want.

[bchris02]

I disagree with comparisons to Denver. OKC is by far the most conservative large city in the country. The only other city that is remotely comparable is Jacksonville, FL. Denver is very liberal. It's going to be difficult to recreate the kind of culture here that you see in places like Austin, Portland, and Denver. Other major cities are usually liberal or at least modern islands in their conservative states, but OKC tends to align more closely with rural Oklahoma than do most major cities do with their rural areas. Somebody correct me if I am wrong, and I hope I am, but from the perception I've seen, it would seem that the conservatism here is a deterrent to young, educated people relocating here from out of state. Even if its just perceived, there is this perception that if you aren't right wing you don't belong here. This is all going to affect what type of development we see here in one way or another.

I'll stop because I am getting off topic, but its an issue that OKC needs to address for so many different reasons.

[ethansisson]

I'm not sure about young, educated people not wanting to relocate here. I did. In the last six months my company has hired three out-of-state young (twenties), educated people for our OKC office. They weren't deterred.

[Spartan]

I disagree with comparisons to Denver. OKC is by far the most conservative large city in the country. The only other city that is remotely comparable is Jacksonville, FL. Denver is very liberal. It's going to be difficult to recreate the kind of culture here that you see in places like Austin, Portland, and Denver. Other major cities are usually liberal or at least modern islands in their conservative states, but OKC tends to align more closely with rural Oklahoma than do most major cities do with their rural areas. Somebody correct me if I am wrong, and I hope I am, but from the perception I've seen, it would seem that the conservatism here is a deterrent to young, educated people relocating here from out of state. Even if its just perceived, there is this perception that if you aren't right wing you don't belong here. This is all going to affect what type of development we see here in one way or another.

I'll stop because I am getting off topic, but its an issue that OKC needs to address for so many different reasons.

The problem, bchrs, is aren't you living out on NWX? Move downtown and get in with the cool kids.

[adaniel]

Yet more "OKC sucks" narrative from bchris02. Its getting old, frankly...why are you even here?

Once again. OKC ranked 12th in the nation in the increase in millennials and 4th in percentage increase.

FWIW Denver, Austin, and to a lesser extent Portland are more libertarian the liberal these days.

[Pete]

I can assure you that OKC is changing...

One of the backhanded benefits of sprawl is that more and more of the people who don't really care about the community no longer live within the city limits. While those that do, are not only staying in OKC but moving closer to the core.

Progressiveness comes from attracting and retaining the 20-somethings and that is happening to a huge degree now in OKC. And by creating an environment where those people can come together and start creating change... All that is definitely happening in OKC.

[PWitty]

Once again. OKC ranked 12th in the nation in the increase in millennials and 4th in percentage increase.

FWIW Denver, Austin, and to a lesser extent Portland are more libertarian the liberal these days.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Every statistic you see these days disagrees with that stereotype, yet it continues to find its way onto this board. I just graduated from KU this last year and will be moving to OKC once my field training is complete. I never once questioned my decision because of the political stereotypes of the city.

I'll also chime in and say that I don't think Denver, or Colorado in general, is as liberal as everyone is trying to make it out to be. Yes, they passed laws to legalize marijuana. But that doesn't make the entire state a liberal safe haven. After all, they are still big advocates of oil and gas development. Something most blue states can't say. Colorado saw legalizing marijuana as a good business opportunity, and it has turned out to be just that so far.

[Just the facts]

You don't see a lot of Atlanta envy in Charlotte...

I spend a lot of time in Atlanta and I can tell you from experience that the envy goes the other way - particularly when it comes to rail mass transit. I can't tell you how many times while listening to talk radio in Atlanta that callers would be frustrated that Georgia DOT was spending more money on roads while Charlotte was building the Lynx system and stealing jobs from Atlanta.

[Spartan]

On talk radio??