OG&E Tower

[shawnw]

OKC needs to drive in its own direction

I see what you did there.

[Bellaboo]

Sometimes it's hard to fathom what all has happened on this land we call Oklahoma through the ages. Sometimes we forget it didn't suddenly pop-up in 1889.

Exactly, I have personally found extremely unique artifacts that have been dated to 8,000 years old in creek beds just south of OKC.

[OKVision4U]

For all these people screaming for 40 floors who swear OKC is "screaming" for the space, I wonder what market information they have regarding demand for space at the price that it would command. Is this based on knowledge or just emotion? Fact or hope? It is easy to say they should risk another $200 million or $300 million when it isn't your money. It is quite different getting the loan for it.

Let's just make him build something world class at the street and forget about that extra 10-15 floors on top.

DEVON spent $1B in downtown OKC while adding 1 Mil sf. of Class A space in OKC. This was expected to "flood the tennant market" and leave a void in the demand. Once the building was completed the demand for Class A space has increased 4x. This is why they / Raney W. are building in the first place. The demand for this space IS screaming for it.

The first $50 - 100 Mil is the Highest Risk. If you go too small, and place an average space in a high demand area, the new developer across the street, may build their version of "World Class" and then all the new customers want to be in that building. So ask yourself Mr. Banker, what is the true risk? ...giving less money in a short return ( keeps your exposure to a specified limit) or providing them the $$$ to be SO successful, that they need to build another 40 Story World Class Building? This is not a down market. This is not a bubble market. This is THE time when you loan the money for a great partnership ( called your customer ). IF you allow your customer to build that ICONIC World Class sturcture, it will take out ALL the risk for ALL parties. If you
're gonna hit a homerun, don't leave it short of the fence.

[Rover]

DEVON spent $1B in downtown OKC while adding 1 Mil sf. of Class A space in OKC. This was expected to "flood the tennant market" and leave a void in the demand. Once the building was completed the demand for Class A space has increased 4x. This is why they / Raney W. are building in the first place. The demand for this space IS screaming for it.

The first $50 - 100 Mil is the Highest Risk. If you go too small, and place an average space in a high demand area, the new developer across the street, may build their version of "World Class" and then all the new customers want to be in that building. So ask yourself Mr. Banker, what is the true risk? ...giving less money in a short return ( keeps your exposure to a specified limit) or providing them the $$$ to be SO successful, that they need to build another 40 Story World Class Building? This is not a down market. This is not a bubble market. This is THE time when you loan the money for a great partnership ( called your customer ). IF you allow your customer to build that ICONIC World Class sturcture, it will take out ALL the risk for ALL parties. If you
're gonna hit a homerun, don't leave it short of the fence.

Just curious as to if you arrived at this after talking to commercial realtors and commercial lending companies or if this is an extrapolation of bits and pieces of optimistic reporting. I do not believe that the demand has increased anywhere near 400% since Devon. While everyone is optimistic, I don't think a professionally done marketing study would arrive at near the same conclusions. Or, we would see a couple of spec towers right now.

And, the risk of the first is NOT the highest if you have a guaranteed tenant for long term which guarantees success vs. spending money for purely speculative offices in an expensive building. OG&E isn't going to be lured across the street...lol. They will sign a long term contract. Plus, large companies don't just up and move every so often...it is very expensive and disruptive to operations to make a major move.

[OKVision4U]

Just curious as to if you arrived at this after talking to commercial realtors and commercial lending companies or if this is an extrapolation of bits and pieces of optimistic reporting. I do not believe that the demand has increased anywhere near 400% since Devon. While everyone is optimistic, I don't think a professionally done marketing study would arrive at near the same conclusions. Or, we would see a couple of spec towers right now.

If his was Houston, you would see those (2) towers breaking ground immediately. They spend money in big ways. Dallas is the same way, they are used to doing business that way. I agree.

In OKC, we move slow... we think smaller & more conservatively. Thus, our debate. The demand IS there. If you create your own momentum, then that lowers your risk. If Raney W. placed an Iconic Tower 40 - 50 stories, he would NOT have an issue filling the demand. ...but if he goes small, then he is placing his product up against More competition.

[OKVision4U]

If his was Houston, you would see those (2) towers breaking ground immediately. They spend money in big ways. Dallas is the same way, they are used to doing business that way. I agree.

In OKC, we move slow... we think smaller & more conservatively. Thus, our debate. The demand IS there. If you create your own momentum, then that lowers your risk. If Raney W. placed an Iconic Tower 40 - 50 stories, he would NOT have an issue filling the demand. ...but if he goes small, then he is placing his product up against More competition.

Thus, the commercial lending groups need to help him get there. From the outside in, they need to help insure his success by getting this going. They are in the market of lending. It only works when you lend it out.

[warreng88]

If his was Houston, you would see those (2) towers breaking ground immediately. They spend money in big ways. Dallas is the same way, they are used to doing business that way. I agree.

You are talking about the fifth and fourth largest metropolitan areas on the country that have a 2012 population estimate of 6.7 million and 6.2 million, respectively. OKC is 42nd with 1.3 million. Why not compare our building with some places closer to our population as opposed to the largest two cities in the second largest state in the country? Austin is 35, Nashville 36, Virginia Beach, Jacksonville, Memphis, Louisville, Richmond, etc all cities within 500,000 people of OKC so better comparisons.

[hoya]

Dallas is one of the most successful cities in the world during the last decade. Anybody making claims that Dallas is any sort of failure has 0 credibility when discussing it. Oklahoma City actually owes a decent amount of its success due to its close proximity to Dallas.

Also, We also aren't a European city. In fact, we aren't ANY other city. Sure, we can take cues from other cities and apply some of the successes of those cities but striving to be like any specific city entirely is just outright ridiculous. Learn to love OKC for what it can uniquely and organically become, or GTFO.

Dallas is prosperous, to be sure. But walking around downtown Dallas, it just feels like a larger version of OKC, which is not very impressive for a city of its size.

--

We aren't a Eupoean city, but that doesn't mean we can't adopt some of their design philosophies and try to grow into something kinda like them. New York and Chicago do skyscrapers right. We can absolutely try to mimic them when it comes to new buildings in our CBD. We won't be those cities, not even close, but it doesn't mean we can't strive for a great skyline. We can also push for urban neighborhoods with abundant midrises that maintain as much historical character as they can, similar to a European city. We don't have 1000 years of history like London or Paris, but that doesn't mean we can't take lessons from those cities.

In the end, OKC will be OKC. No one is proposing we build an exact copy of Paris (or Manhattan) here in central Oklahoma. But saying "they do it this way over there" can be a very helpful guideline for future growth.

[OKVision4U]

You are talking about the fifth and fourth largest metropolitan areas on the country that have a 2012 population estimate of 6.7 million and 6.2 million, respectively. OKC is 42nd with 1.3 million. Why not compare our building with some places closer to our population as opposed to the largest two cities in the second largest state in the country? Austin is 35, Nashville 36, Virginia Beach, Jacksonville, Memphis, Louisville, Richmond, etc all cities within 500,000 people of OKC so better comparisons.

warreng, Dallas & Houston IS the best sample. They are in our region. West Coast is a different animal / East Coast too. What happens in North Texas ( OKC's close neighbor) is a geat example of "how they are successful vs. OKC is the Best comparison. fyi.

[warreng88]

warreng, Dallas & Houston IS the best sample. They are in our region. West Coast is a different animal / East Coast too. What happens in North Texas ( OKC's close neighbor) is a geat example of "how they are successful vs. OKC is the Best comparison. fyi.

Then by that reasoning, why not use Wichita? They are in the same region, only three hours away and are about half our size as opposed to five to six times our size.

[bchris02]

Dallas is prosperous, to be sure. But walking around downtown Dallas, it just feels like a larger version of OKC, which is not very impressive for a city of its size.

Downtown Dallas feels a lot more polished and glitzy. The lights on the towers make it feel much more vibrant. There is constantly construction cranes and new towers going up. It really has more of an energetic, moving forward feel. I will say it is not as impressive as downtown Houston, but it's no slouch for a major city in this region of the country.

In my opinion OKC could better its skyline without having to build more towers, especially at night.

[AP]

Downtown Dallas feels more like a larger version of Charlotte than OKC.

How did I know that was coming.

[OKVision4U]

Just curious as to if you arrived at this after talking to commercial realtors and commercial lending companies or if this is an extrapolation of bits and pieces of optimistic reporting. I do not believe that the demand has increased anywhere near 400% since Devon. While everyone is optimistic, I don't think a professionally done marketing study would arrive at near the same conclusions. Or, we would see a couple of spec towers right now.

And, the risk of the first is NOT the highest if you have a guaranteed tenant for long term which guarantees success vs. spending money for purely speculative offices in an expensive building. OG&E isn't going to be lured across the street...lol. They will sign a long term contract. Plus, large companies don't just up and move every so often...it is very expensive and disruptive to operations to make a major move.

OG&E as a tenant can sign a long term 20/30 year contract, sure. This is why I said "if Raney W is building to sell". I'm not sure what his intentions are once built. But if I'm Raney W and the market is demanding a 40 story tower vs. a 16 story tower, then I would want the latter. ...that is real estate, ...buy less, improve, sell high.

[catch22]

how did i know that was coming.

lol.

[zookeeper]

How did I know that was coming.

bchris02: We are all hoping your New Year's resolution list has somewhere near the top: "Only type 'Charlotte' once per week at OKCTalk."

[Spartan]

Dallas is one of the most successful cities in the world during the last decade. Anybody making claims that Dallas is any sort of failure has 0 credibility when discussing it. Oklahoma City actually owes a decent amount of its success due to its close proximity to Dallas.

Also, We also aren't a European city. In fact, we aren't ANY other city. Sure, we can take cues from other cities and apply some of the successes of those cities but striving to be like any specific city entirely is just outright ridiculous. Learn to love OKC for what it can uniquely and organically become, or GTFO.

----

I walked around the Myriad Gardens and stood at the Northwest corner and tried to imagine what this new tower will look and feel like once complete. First off, it was hard letting go of the stage center which actually surprised me. I didn't think I was that emotionally tied to it but it is a really unique structure and it makes an impression on you. But past that, this new tower won't be AS BAD as I originally thought either. It will create a decent wall along the Westnorth corner, and if there are shops along ground level it will be pretty cool. Still absolutely HATE the fact the view down California will be blocked. This fact is starting to irk me more so then how short the tower will be. But another point on height, it won't be that short either. 14 stories will still make you feel like you are "in downtown". You just won't have to tilt your head back to see the top of it. From far away though, it will still be short. Especially right next to Devon.


Side note**** the Myriad Gardens are absolutely dreadful. Plants are dead everywhere (I know its been cold, but come on.....) and the whole place is just not maintained at all. At least 90% of all the fish are dead or dying. It is really a disaster at this point.

Are you architect2014? About mid-way through I recalled reading something this abrasive in the past and then it hit me...

Dallas is a travesty. There are two really excellent articles I tried digging up, one on Fort Worthology (a great new urbanist website that used to take digs at Dallas/N. Texas, but alas, no longer exists) and another in the Dallas Observer from a Cornell architecture professor critiquing the Dallas Arts District developments. The Cornell professor was a riot, arguing that the wide open-range starchitecture has the subtlety of a bull mounting a comely heifer. Won't forget that analogy for a while, plus he was spot-on.

The Dallas school of thought is to throw ungodly gobs of money at something and then call it world class because of ungodly sums of money. Either it's 800 feet tall (another great article read in the Morning News: the Mean Tower Architecture review: Museum Tower is 'classic mean girl: privileged, superficial, manipulative' | Dallas Morning News) or it was designed by the love child of Rem Koolhaas and Norman Foster (starchitecture x 2, take that world, hook 'em!!).

I am actually more familiar (sometimes painfully so) with our beloved #BigD than anyone on here probably realizes. There are actually some great pockets of human scale neighborhood vitality that are almost very un-Dallas-like, such as the Bishop Arts District. I also dig the human scale of Knox Avenue and the grittiness of Deep Ellum. Dallas is arguably a world-class city. But it's also an enigma and it's also (read:) NOTHING AT ALL TO ASPIRE TO BE. Dallas is the worst and the best rolled into one weird, psychotic, megalomaniac metroplex.

But then again at times I feel like the point I am trying to make is a little too complex for the collective psyche of this thread (note: the unspoken division in what I just said, juxtaposing this thread against the forum at large where certain posters aren't going nuts in other threads). Just to bring this back to the topic at hand, you can't coherently open saying that Dallas has no flaws and has never failed AND that OKC owes its success to close proximity to Dallas (funny because that shadow has really hurt us, and now that we've made long strides we're finally out of their shadow, and have cities like Tulsa and Wichita in our shadow instead) and then overcompensate later by saying I should "GTFO" if I don't embrace OKC's Middle America-ness.

----------------
Schizophrenia (/ˌskɪtsɵˈfrɛniə/ or /ˌskɪtsɵˈfriːniə/) is a mental disorder characterized by a breakdown of thought processes and by impaired emotional responses.

[CuatrodeMayo]

Are you architect2014? About mid-way through I recalled reading something this abrasive in the past and then it hit me...

Dallas is a travesty. There are two really excellent articles I tried digging up, one on Fort Worthology (a great new urbanist website that used to take digs at Dallas/N. Texas, but alas, no longer exists) and another in the Dallas Observer from a Cornell architecture professor critiquing the Dallas Arts District developments. The Cornell professor was a riot, arguing that the wide open-range starchitecture has the subtlety of a bull mounting a comely heifer. Won't forget that analogy for a while, plus he was spot-on.

The Dallas school of thought is to throw ungodly gobs of money at something and then call it world class because of ungodly sums of money. Either it's 800 feet tall (another great article read in the Morning News: the Mean Tower Architecture review: Museum Tower is 'classic mean girl: privileged, superficial, manipulative' | Dallas Morning News) or it was designed by the love child of Rem Koolhaas and Norman Foster (starchitecture x 2, take that world, hook 'em!!).

I am actually more familiar (sometimes painfully so) with our beloved #BigD than anyone on here probably realizes. There are actually some great pockets of human scale neighborhood vitality that are almost very un-Dallas-like, such as the Bishop Arts District. I also dig the human scale of Knox Avenue and the grittiness of Deep Ellum. Dallas is arguably a world-class city. But it's also an enigma and it's also (read:) NOTHING AT ALL TO ASPIRE TO BE. Dallas is the worst and the best rolled into one weird, psychotic, megalomaniac metroplex.

But then again at times I feel like the point I am trying to make is a little too complex for the collective psyche of this thread (note: the unspoken division in what I just said, juxtaposing this thread against the forum at large where certain posters aren't going nuts in other threads). Just to bring this back to the topic at hand, you can't coherently open saying that Dallas has no flaws and has never failed AND that OKC owes its success to close proximity to Dallas (funny because that shadow has really hurt us, and now that we've made long strides we're finally out of their shadow, and have cities like Tulsa and Wichita in our shadow instead) and then overcompensate later by saying I should "GTFO" if I don't embrace OKC's Middle America-ness.

----------------
Schizophrenia (/ˌskɪtsɵˈfrɛniə/ or /ˌskɪtsɵˈfriːniə/) is a mental disorder characterized by a breakdown of thought processes and by impaired emotional responses.

[adaniel]

The Dallas school of thought is to throw ungodly gobs of money at something and then call it world class because of ungodly sums of money. Either it's 800 feet tall (another great article read in the Morning News: the Mean Tower Architecture review: Museum Tower is 'classic mean girl: privileged, superficial, manipulative' | Dallas Morning News) or it was designed by the love child of Rem Koolhaas and Norman Foster (starchitecture x 2, take that world, hook 'em!!).

I am actually more familiar (sometimes painfully so) with our beloved #BigD than anyone on here probably realizes. There are actually some great pockets of human scale neighborhood vitality that are almost very un-Dallas-like, such as the Bishop Arts District. I also dig the human scale of Knox Avenue and the grittiness of Deep Ellum. Dallas is arguably a world-class city. But it's also an enigma and it's also (read:) NOTHING AT ALL TO ASPIRE TO BE. Dallas is the worst and the best rolled into one weird, psychotic, megalomaniac metroplex.

But then again at times I feel like the point I am trying to make is a little too complex for the collective psyche of this thread (note: the unspoken division in what I just said, juxtaposing this thread against the forum at large where certain posters aren't going nuts in other threads). Just to bring this back to the topic at hand, you can't coherently open saying that Dallas has no flaws and has never failed AND that OKC owes its success to close proximity to Dallas (funny because that shadow has really hurt us, and now that we've made long strides we're finally out of their shadow, and have cities like Tulsa and Wichita in our shadow instead) and then overcompensate later by saying I should "GTFO" if I don't embrace OKC's Middle America-ness.

----------------
Schizophrenia (/ˌskɪtsɵˈfrɛniə/ or /ˌskɪtsɵˈfriːniə/) is a mental disorder characterized by a breakdown of thought processes and by impaired emotional responses.

Since this thread is completely off subject now, I will say I agree with this as a former resident of the area. DFW has been, for at least the past 40 or 50 years, all about flash and excess. It is not a coincidence that the term "credit card millionaire" originated in Dallas circles in the 80's and 90's. This attitude has occasionally led to dramatic overbuilding and spectacular collapses, like the late 80's banking bust or the dot com bust of 2001. It is certainly not the direction I want OKC going in and I don't think it could even if it wanted to. And while, yes, we are very tied to Dallas economically and culturally, I have never understood the need some have here for OKC to be like Dallas. They are just as close distance-wise, but most people in Houston, Austin, or SA do not feel the same way.

With that in mind, there are lots of "human scale" developments in Dallas that tend to get overlooked by Oklahomans who are going down there on the weekend. It gets overshadowed but areas like M Streets, Lakewood, Bluffview are oozing with character.

[Rover]

If his was Houston, you would see those (2) towers breaking ground immediately. They spend money in big ways. Dallas is the same way, they are used to doing business that way. I agree.

In OKC, we move slow... we think smaller & more conservatively. Thus, our debate. The demand IS there. If you create your own momentum, then that lowers your risk. If Raney W. placed an Iconic Tower 40 - 50 stories, he would NOT have an issue filling the demand. ...but if he goes small, then he is placing his product up against More competition.

You need to go work for a bank commercial lending department. I am sure they will love the "build it and they will come" risk attitude and would let you lend lots of money for development. LOL

[jccouger]

Listen Spartan, you are smart and you understand text book urban design more than 99.9% of us. I get that, we get that, you get that.

Your street smarts however, are ridiculously lacking. If a city that has people and businesses flocking to it at rates higher then anywhere else in the world then I'm gonna consider that city a success, and I don't care what anti-dallas website article has to say otherwise. The quality of life there is outstanding, and the entertainment is endless. There have been no urban developments constructed there that has seriously stunted any kind of growth.

I respect your opinion and your input on anything regards to urban design, but I won't always agree with you. I also cuss a lot when I talk, so if I say something like "gtfo" its just who I am. Don't be so sensitive.

Past all this, I don't want us to be compared to Dallas. I want us to be compared to Oklahoma City. I'm tired of all comparisons in general.

[Plutonic Panda]

Dallas is one of the most successful cities in the world during the last decade. Anybody making claims that Dallas is any sort of failure has 0 credibility when discussing it. Oklahoma City actually owes a decent amount of its success due to its close proximity to Dallas.

Also, We also aren't a European city. In fact, we aren't ANY other city. Sure, we can take cues from other cities and apply some of the successes of those cities but striving to be like any specific city entirely is just outright ridiculous. Learn to love OKC for what it can uniquely and organically become, or GTFO.

----

I walked around the Myriad Gardens and stood at the Northwest corner and tried to imagine what this new tower will look and feel like once complete. First off, it was hard letting go of the stage center which actually surprised me. I didn't think I was that emotionally tied to it but it is a really unique structure and it makes an impression on you. But past that, this new tower won't be AS BAD as I originally thought either. It will create a decent wall along the Westnorth corner, and if there are shops along ground level it will be pretty cool. Still absolutely HATE the fact the view down California will be blocked. This fact is starting to irk me more so then how short the tower will be. But another point on height, it won't be that short either. 14 stories will still make you feel like you are "in downtown". You just won't have to tilt your head back to see the top of it. From far away though, it will still be short. Especially right next to Devon.


Side note**** the Myriad Gardens are absolutely dreadful. Plants are dead everywhere (I know its been cold, but come on.....) and the whole place is just not maintained at all. At least 90% of all the fish are dead or dying. It is really a disaster at this point.

Great post man! I haven't been to the Myriad lately, shame to hear about that.

[Plutonic Panda]

I see what you did there.

I didn't mean it like that lol. . . probably could've worded that a little better

[Plutonic Panda]

Are you architect2014? About mid-way through I recalled reading something this abrasive in the past and then it hit me...

Dallas is a travesty. There are two really excellent articles I tried digging up, one on Fort Worthology (a great new urbanist website that used to take digs at Dallas/N. Texas, but alas, no longer exists) and another in the Dallas Observer from a Cornell architecture professor critiquing the Dallas Arts District developments. The Cornell professor was a riot, arguing that the wide open-range starchitecture has the subtlety of a bull mounting a comely heifer. Won't forget that analogy for a while, plus he was spot-on.

The Dallas school of thought is to throw ungodly gobs of money at something and then call it world class because of ungodly sums of money. Either it's 800 feet tall (another great article read in the Morning News: the Mean Tower Architecture review: Museum Tower is 'classic mean girl: privileged, superficial, manipulative' | Dallas Morning News) or it was designed by the love child of Rem Koolhaas and Norman Foster (starchitecture x 2, take that world, hook 'em!!).

I am actually more familiar (sometimes painfully so) with our beloved #BigD than anyone on here probably realizes. There are actually some great pockets of human scale neighborhood vitality that are almost very un-Dallas-like, such as the Bishop Arts District. I also dig the human scale of Knox Avenue and the grittiness of Deep Ellum. Dallas is arguably a world-class city. But it's also an enigma and it's also (read:) NOTHING AT ALL TO ASPIRE TO BE. Dallas is the worst and the best rolled into one weird, psychotic, megalomaniac metroplex.

But then again at times I feel like the point I am trying to make is a little too complex for the collective psyche of this thread (note: the unspoken division in what I just said, juxtaposing this thread against the forum at large where certain posters aren't going nuts in other threads). Just to bring this back to the topic at hand, you can't coherently open saying that Dallas has no flaws and has never failed AND that OKC owes its success to close proximity to Dallas (funny because that shadow has really hurt us, and now that we've made long strides we're finally out of their shadow, and have cities like Tulsa and Wichita in our shadow instead) and then overcompensate later by saying I should "GTFO" if I don't embrace OKC's Middle America-ness.

----------------
Schizophrenia (/ˌskɪtsɵˈfrɛniə/ or /ˌskɪtsɵˈfriːniə/) is a mental disorder characterized by a breakdown of thought processes and by impaired emotional responses.

Dallas is not a travesty.

[OKVision4U]

You need to go work for a bank commercial lending department. I am sure they will love the "build it and they will come" risk attitude and would let you lend lots of money for development. LOL

Or how about I just make a few calls to the Boys in Texas, that are accustomed to making (larger investments) than a car loan or Camo'd 4 Wheeler.....????

[bchris02]

bchris02: We are all hoping your New Year's resolution list has somewhere near the top: "Only type 'Charlotte' once per week at OKCTalk."

I'll stop throwing out Charlotte all the time for comparison.

However, I don't understand all the Dallas hate here. Dallas is an amazing city in its own right. OKC will likely never be Dallas, they are just too different, but one day it would be nice if this city offered more of the amenities that Dallas does but in a smaller package, like some other city I won't name. That can be done without also repeating the mistakes of Dallas.