OG&E Tower

[metro]

Just wondering how tall is the new school going to be? The project for stage center site will be about as tall as the Colcord Hotel if they stay at 14 floors. The Colcord doesn't even register in most skyline pics that I see. What a waste of prime real estate.

The school is 2 stories and exterior near complete.

[Urbanized]

That's always been a part of this... We all just assumed there was going to be something great on that spot, so losing the Stage Center wasn't the end of the world.

But what if from the beginning it was clear were would be getting a 14-16 story building, maybe another 8-12 story building and a huge parking lot with virtually nothing for the public, no new jobs coming downtown, etc. ?

How many people would have been for losing the Stage Center if we knew all along that's what we'd be getting??
...

Quite a few, according to posts I've read. Haven't you heard? We'd be better off even if it was replaced by only a dirt lot for the next 20 years.

[Of Sound Mind]

How many people would have been for losing the Stage Center if we knew all along that's what we'd be getting??

I would be one.

I've been quite taken aback by the hyperbolic negativity and disappointment about this project. It befuddles me why people think the Stage Center, which has been grossly neglected for many, many years with no one stepping forward to do anything about it, is now somehow better than this new project, which may not be as spectacular as the Devon Tower but is respectable to most reasonable people and represents a substantial investment in downtown with new construction — an infinitely greater investment than the Stage Center has seen in its lifetime. I just don't understand the unrealistic expectations, especially when those with pie-in-the-sky visions for the OKC skyline have so little actual skin in the game — i.e. their own financial stake in bringing these visions to reality.

[bchris02]

I would be one.

I've been quite taken aback by the hyperbolic negativity and disappointment about this project. It befuddles me why people think the Stage Center, which has been grossly neglected for many, many years with no one stepping forward to do anything about it, is now somehow better than this new project, which may not be as spectacular as the Devon Tower but is respectable to most reasonable people and represents a substantial investment in downtown with new construction — an infinitely greater investment than the Stage Center has seen in its lifetime. I just don't understand the unrealistic expectations, especially when those with pie-in-the-sky visions for the OKC skyline have so little actual skin in the game — i.e. their own financial stake in bringing these visions to reality.

I am leaning more and more towards this. Let me say in no way do I think this mid-rise is the best use of that land and wish something better and truly special was proposed, but it wasn't. OKC, despite the transformation that had already occurred, is not in the position a city like Houston, Dallas, or Austin is in where they could block this development in hopes of a better one coming along and have it actually pan out as envisioned. If this 14-story tower gets blocked, there is no counting on a 40 story tower being built there. In fact, I would say its a pie in the sky possibility. We have to take the cards we've been dealt. We can demand certain things in regards to the project, such as adherence to urban principles to avoid a Lower Bricktown fiasco, but to say this is just not good enough for the site and not build it completely isn't something OKC is currently in a position where that would be wise.

[AP]

I would be one.

I've been quite taken aback by the hyperbolic negativity and disappointment about this project. It befuddles me why people think the Stage Center, which has been grossly neglected for many, many years with no one stepping forward to do anything about it, is now somehow better than this new project, which may not be as spectacular as the Devon Tower but is respectable to most reasonable people and represents a substantial investment in downtown with new construction — an infinitely greater investment than the Stage Center has seen in its lifetime. I just don't understand the unrealistic expectations, especially when those with pie-in-the-sky visions for the OKC skyline have so little actual skin in the game — i.e. their own financial stake in bringing these visions to reality.

+1

[Bellaboo]

I would be one.

I've been quite taken aback by the hyperbolic negativity and disappointment about this project. It befuddles me why people think the Stage Center, which has been grossly neglected for many, many years with no one stepping forward to do anything about it, is now somehow better than this new project, which may not be as spectacular as the Devon Tower but is respectable to most reasonable people and represents a substantial investment in downtown with new construction — an infinitely greater investment than the Stage Center has seen in its lifetime. I just don't understand the unrealistic expectations, especially when those with pie-in-the-sky visions for the OKC skyline have so little actual skin in the game — i.e. their own financial stake in bringing these visions to reality.

This ^^^ We went over 20 years with little to no major construction downtown. Now we get another tower, it will be the second within 5 years and whether it's mid rise or not, it still will transform the West side of the MBG. They are proposing a large parking facility.....are we not short on parking currently ?. If done right, this parking could be okay if the perimeter is developed correctly, and at this point we really don't know about that. It's real easy to spend someone else's money when we think there are short comings with the development. I'm hoping for the best.

[David]

I would be one.

I've been quite taken aback by the hyperbolic negativity and disappointment about this project. It befuddles me why people think the Stage Center, which has been grossly neglected for many, many years with no one stepping forward to do anything about it, is now somehow better than this new project, which may not be as spectacular as the Devon Tower but is respectable to most reasonable people and represents a substantial investment in downtown with new construction — an infinitely greater investment than the Stage Center has seen in its lifetime. I just don't understand the unrealistic expectations, especially when those with pie-in-the-sky visions for the OKC skyline have so little actual skin in the game — i.e. their own financial stake in bringing these visions to reality.

Same here. Fourthed, I guess?

[mkjeeves]

Some serious thoughts on Stage Center. Give me a minute or so?

In a quick answer to MustangGT, many thought otherwise. Very conservative people didn't like it one bit. If there was a computer forum of progressive city thinkers (like this board) when the Mummer's Theater was built, we would have all been thinking it was the coolest thing to ever hit Oklahoma City. As for the division, I remember it from the day it opened, but it wasn't one-sided. It certainly was "love it or hate it," but it was unique - in the truest sense of the word. Many loved it - many hated it. But the awards rolled in.

I've read people on this board write about how actors and producers of theater today don't even like it. But I know quite a few theater types who tell me that's a minority viewpoint and the intimate, close atmosphere was a chance to really showcase great talent.

With a last and faint breath, I argue that Stage Center could again be an incredible facility. In a time where we can turn the North Canadian River into the Oklahoma River, an abandoned warehouse district into Bricktown, renovate old, dusty, decrepit buildings into beautiful new urban landscapes, we can surely turn the Stage Center into a world-class facility. Is there the will? Probably not. But, is there a way? Of course. Things have been transformed all over this country from much worse. The propaganda campaign of such normally optimistic people in this city about so many things became so negative about Stage Center it finally wore down those who support this incredible building. It wasn't a matter of how, or if, or if there's a way, (there was always a way), it was just a matter of cost and will. There was simply no will. Art (no matter how well recognized around the globe) had no way to compete with very powerful monied interests who had their eyes on this property for a long time. They will most probably soon have their demolition permit in hand. So sad. So terribly, terribly sad.

Well said. The OG&E project should be out NW near Paycom and the like, or just about anywhere else. No need for it to be downtown at all. We have decentralized jobs now and that's a good thing. Not everyone and everything can be in one location nor needs to be in one location.

[bchris02]

Well said. The OG&E project should be out NW near Paycom and the like, or just about anywhere else. No need for it to be downtown at all. We have decentralized jobs now and that's a good thing. Not everyone and everything can be in one location nor needs to be in one location.

Are you serious?

[mkjeeves]

I'm pragmatic. 90% of OKC metro isn't downtown and doesn't need to be. Not only that, it can't be. If you think it can, lets start with you telling me how and where you plan to move Tinker, all the people who work for Tinker, all the places they shop and go to school. We can work from there. Downtown is a component of OKC metro. An important one but not the most important by a long stretch or any measure.

[Pete]

Same here. Fourthed, I guess?

I guess it's a good thing a lot of people are okay with this project because I'm quite sure it's going to happen pretty much as planned.

Not the end of the world just a lost opportunity, in my humble opinion.


My one remaining hope is that they add more public space/elements that everyone can access and enjoy.

[LakeEffect]

I'm pragmatic. 90% of OKC metro isn't downtown and doesn't need to be. Not only that, it can't be. If you think it can, lets start with you telling me how and where you plan to move Tinker, all the people who work for Tinker, all the places they shop and go to school. We can work from there. Downtown is a component of OKC metro. An important one but not the most important by a long stretch or any measure.

Your trolling has increased as of late.

NO ONE expects to move jobs like those at Tinker downtown. Ridiculous argument.

Downtown represents a synergy of business. Businesses want to locate downtown because they can easily interact with one another. Their employees can enjoy easy access to amenities, day and night, and can access the rest of the metro much more easily. Central locations are smart business.

[mkjeeves]

Your trolling has increased as of late.

NO ONE expects to move jobs like those at Tinker downtown. Ridiculous argument.

Downtown represents a synergy of business. Businesses want to locate downtown because they can easily interact with one another. Their employees can enjoy easy access to amenities, day and night, and can access the rest of the metro much more easily. Central locations are smart business.

I'm not sorry if my opinions don't fit your group think. I understand you would like to build downtown and add housing, density shopping etc. and the reasons why. Downtown does not have much of that now. We do have a lot of some of those items in other places in part because we do have decentralized jobs. There's nothing wrong with building that either. We are killing a landmark building with this project, 100% needlessly.

[David]

I guess it's a good thing a lot of people are okay with this project because I'm quite sure it's going to happen pretty much as planned.

Not the end of the world just a lost opportunity, in my humble opinion.


My one remaining hope is that they add more public space/elements that everyone can access and enjoy.

The thing is, I really don't see it as that much of a lost opportunity. We are getting street level interaction on three of the four sides of the building. From the original article:

A conceptual master plan shows both towers will adjoin a multi-story parking structure that will include shops and restaurants facing Hudson and Sheridan Avenues. A daycare and play area are proposed along the south side of the garage facing the Festival Plaza that each year is home to the Festival of the Arts.

We are also likely (to use the word from the article) getting a residential tower immediately next to the new elementary. The only thing I see this project lacking is height, and as was eventually brought up in this thread, too much height on this plot could cause problems for the Gardens.

Yeah, Williams may under-deliver, but that is true for anything that he possibly could have announced. If we don't believe he will build this development as presented, why should we believe that he would build a 50 story tower if that had been the announcement?

[Pete]

I would still like to see more than just a restaurant on the ground floor as the only public amenity.

[Spartan]

Well said. The OG&E project should be out NW near Paycom and the like, or just about anywhere else. No need for it to be downtown at all. We have decentralized jobs now and that's a good thing. Not everyone and everything can be in one location nor needs to be in one location.

Live on the far NW side?

[David]

I would still like to see more than just a restaurant on the ground floor as the only public amenity.

Again, according to the article:

a multi-story parking structure that will include shops and restaurants facing Hudson and Sheridan Avenues

Is there something I missed that indicates Williams has already pulled back on his original announcement and reduced "shops and restaurants" to "a restaurant"?

[Pete]

In the schematics, it shows one space on the ground floor of the main building as "restaurant/retail" space.

The other building is purely speculative, although there is one more restaurant space shown on Sheridan.

[mkjeeves]

Live on the far NW side?

Nope. I do get around though. Have you been out there recently? There's plenty going on. But you aren't around here right?

Note that I did say:

NW near Paycom and the like, or just about anywhere else.

[soondoc]

I for one am embarrassed at our low standards. Like I said earlier, we have a mentality here to just accept the minimal standards because it's better than what we had. You all are playing right into what I just stated. All the comments about how it's better than nothing or just sitting empty and we don't have the luxury to wait for a tower, is just pure nonsense. I'm tired of hearing we aren't Austin, or Nashville or other boom towns. Well, keep dreaming small and we never will be. We have a thriving economy and it's best to make hay when their is sunshine. Those other cities make it happen because they don't have our small minded mentality. They don't sit around and throw out excuses why they can't do something, they just make it happen. Yes, we aren't Austin because most of the people around here don't want to be Austin or too scared to step out of their comfort zones and be anything better than OK!

My gosh you all are frustrating. We need towers, an amazing boulevard and park, downtown/bricktown needs to be connected and a part of the core to shore and the new whitewater and river activities. These things need to flow and be symbiotic with each other. We need to be reason companies want to come here, a reason people want to be here, and announce to the world we have arrived. Build a couple more towers, hotels, convention center and several mid rise residential towers and visibly see the difference in this city. Get with the program on a good rail or commuter rail system. Build a couple of structures that become UNIQUE to OKC only that everyone in the world can identify with. Call me crazy but I would love to see the big Oil Derrick built and have tours and it be symbolic of us being an Energy City! Ideas I would love to see here are:

1. Oil Derrick like the one designed a couple years ago
2. Turbine looking building that has wind energy. Doesn't have to be crazy tall, maybe 20-25 stories but all lit up and unique
3. 2 more towers of 28-40 stories
4. 4-6 mid rises in the for of hotels, office, and residential of 16-25 stories
5. Personally, I'd love to see a Hard Rock hotel and casino like the one in Tulsa but more grand and lit up with spot lights, etc.
6. The big Ferris Wheel
7. World class park, boulevard, and core to shore
8. Rail system in the city to core, Edmond to Norman, and NW, and Airport
9. A MAJOR attraction to make us a destination. Maybe a big theme park, etc. We need to be a destination and people come here to visit. Opens up our airport for more flights and gates.

Finally, it has been said over and over that OKC will never land a hub at WR. With that said, why could we not get a head of everyone in the county and build and become the MAIN hub for a high speed rail connecting all over the country? OKC is a great fit geographically and we could become a boom town on steroids if that were to ever come about. Not to mention how much that would help our airport. Could you imagine the exposure and publicity our city would get if this came to fruition? Yes, I dream big but if you don't have them and only think small, that is all you will ever be. Dream big OKC and make things happen. Let your voices be heard and demand things get done. Let the right people know and share your dreams. Talk to Pete, Steve, and city leaders, let's become great!!!

[shawnw]

If this were proposed in 2007 (i.e. before Devon) everyone would be elated. Devon, for better or worse, has spoiled us, or at least our expectations, somewhat...

[OKCRT]

If this were proposed in 2007 (i.e. before Devon) everyone would be elated. Devon, for better or worse, has spoiled us, or at least our expectations, somewhat...

I hope this small building doesn't get built. Let the site sit as is and force Rainy to sell his stake in it. 1st the guy tells us that it will be 25 stories and IMO that was about 10 stories to short and now he brings us this 14 story load of crap? By the time he gets finished it will prob be 8-10 stories. The Colcord Hotel is 14 stories I believe and what does that do for the skyline? Nothing. Take this stuff to NW Expressway and stay off the prime downtown areas that should be reserved for world class projects. There are no do overs. If he gets this thing built I would consider it a huge setback for downtown. This is not a project the citizens of OKC will be proud to show off to out of towners. Hey look at out new 14 story skyscraper!

You don't put your trailer house next to a World Class Devon Energy Center. This would be a good project for Wichita Falls or lawton but not Prime downtown OKC location.

Hopefully the demolishing permit is denied somehow.

[adaniel]

If this were proposed in 2007 (i.e. before Devon) everyone would be elated. Devon, for better or worse, has spoiled us, or at least our expectations, somewhat...

Agree completely.

Devon was built by cash by an insanely successful company with about 2 months worth of its profit. It was the largest private project in state history. And while I am sure that one exists, I have yet to find a project that comes close cost-wise to this built in any surrounding state recently. So when I hear "Devon has raised the bar" I cringe because that was once-in-a-lifetime. If the SC tower was 25 stories I can guarantee you people would still be complaining because "its not Devon".

The thing I enjoy most about this current design is that it compliments Devon while trying to not overshadow it.

[kevinpate]

I hope this small building doesn't get built. Let the site sit as is and force Rainy to sell his stake in it. ...
Hopefully the demolishing permit is denied somehow.

While folks are entitled to their own respective opinions, what (actually available) mechanism would someone displeased/angry/deeply concerned/etc. engage to allow OKC municipal government the authority to compel the current owner to let the site sit until a new site proposal is presented that includes a tower over X stories (whether X is 12, 22, 32, 62 or any other number) and/or compel the current owner to sell the property to another party absent a new proposal.

I do not see how one gets there from here in the world as it exists today.

[OKCRT]

While folks are entitled to their own respective opinions, what (actually available) mechanism would someone displeased/angry/deeply concerned/etc. engage to allow OKC municipal government the authority to compel the current owner to let the site sit until a new site proposal is presented that includes a tower over X stories (whether X is 12, 22, 32, 62 or any other number) and/or compel the current owner to sell the property to another party absent a new proposal.

I do not see how one gets there from here in the world as it exists today.

What happens if the city were to deny the permit to demolish the stage center? What does RW do then?