OG&E Tower

[Urbanized]

Now come on, Sparty. You know that you and I are like-minded on almost all of that. This is of course bleeding over from another thread (on San Antonio of all things), but just so that everyone knows what we are talking about, you and PluPan were talking about something, and he asked (more or less) whether OKCTalk was a place for all OKC-minded people to chat about their city or whether it was only a place for the urban-minded, and you indicated (more or less) that OKCTalk was strictly a place for urbanists, with the logical extension being that the suburban-minded should GTFO. That is the only thing I take issue with.

I applaud you and JTF and Sid and others who fearlessly carry the urbanist flag, and who nearly always do a great job of showing why the economies of scale favor urban over suburban development from a public financing and from a quality-of-life standpoint. If we can slowly convince the rest of the city to allow, encourage (or even - gasp - REQUIRE) higher-quality, more-dense development to take hold, our city will be the better (and the richer) for it. Where we part ways is that I don't feel the need to castigate those who like it in the 'burbs. We need them and their support, both as users and as fellow taxpayers, to make our own vision happen. And hopefully we can convert a few along the way. Which is already happening, of course, because of the several thousand now living downtown almost all of them by definition originated in the 'burbs (myself included, though it was decades ago).

[OKCisOK4me]

I'm certain Praedura would do what you have requested but he has not posted since the first week of December. I hope he's alright.

[Steve]

Wow....

[Pete]

Excuse me? I was referring to quality. I still stand by what I said. He did a great job with his previous work downtown, and so far, his modeling seems to meet urban design expectations.

What previous work, Steve?

He's owned Bank of Oklahoma Plaza since 2007 and has done very little with it -- a very modest plaza makeover is all I am aware of.

Is there something else?

[Spartan]

I don't think we should expect Steve to throw a developer under the bus when he COULD probably pull this off. This development will probably happen considering RW has family money that I don't (and OG+E connects) and it's great that OKC's old money is now getting more involved downtown. Considering that we need Steve to maintain as good a relationship as possible w RW so that the public can get more details, unless anyone thinks we already know enough here.

But this is no Bob Howard or Fred Hall or even McKown/Humphrey/Pitman/Bradshaw/etc. Those guys have track records and deeper pockets than just their $20 million mixed-use projects and it is reasonable to expect them to build up to larger projects. Even Rick Dowell is on tower watch. This guy has not been a part of downtown development unless he was a shadow investor which would be interesting.

[Plutonic Panda]

I'm NOT blaming the developer. I blame the tower design for being small. If he can't pull off a higher tower then fine, but this low height building really belongs somewhere else. Some don't care about height at all, I really do.

[Pete]

As far as I know, Rainey Williams bought Bank of Oklahoma Plaza in 2007 for $15 million, did a very minor and unimpressive spruce up of the outdoor space, and not much else. (BTW, the Holiday Inn Express in Bricktown is an $18 million project, to provide some perspective).

I'm sure he's intelligent, motivated and well-connected but there is very little in his past that would have everyone just assume he's an accomplished developer of huge urban projects. In fact, it seems he's only been an investor/owner, which is very different than from-the-ground-up development.

Blind Boosterism is one of the things I like least about Oklahoma City... Because Williams is known and liked in the community somehow seems to imply that any skepticism towards his plans is tantamount to being anti-OKC.

It feels similar to when citizens criticize a war and then get called unpatriotic.



I respect Steve's position here and not saying HE should openly question this project, just that others are entitled to do so without becoming some sort of pariah.

[tomokc]

Why is everybody dumping on Rainey Williams? Because he isn't building a second Devon Tower? Because he isn't building 20+ stories? Because he isn't living up to everyone's expectation on this board? Everbody sure seems to be underwhelmed with his proposal, but unless I'm wrong, it's the first CBD office building built with spec space in 30 years (Leadership Square). That he's building ANYTHING is to be commended. We need the space, and he's bringing it to the market. Kudos.

Furthermore, he has chosen a site where an emotional city landmark has stood for 40 years. Some say that it's a building with architectural significance that should be preserved, others call it an unaffordable eyesore that should be torn down, but all must admit that anyone could have purchased and preserved Stage Center, but no-one came forward. As a pragmatist I see that we must move ahead, while recognizing that this infuriates preservationists, many of whom are close friends.

Stage Center will be replaced. If not by Rainey Williams then by someone else. If not now then at some time in the near future. If not 20 stories, then 20 +/- a few. If not with OG+E then with another anchor tenant. If not X then Y. But it will be replaced.

So discuss why >20 or <20, or why OG+E versus another company, or why single-use versus mixed-use, or whatever you'd like to discuss. Just stop throwing under the bus a guy who has the ba**s to do what is going to be done, mostly with his own money, according to his own plan, for which he'll be vilified and might even lose his investment. If you don't like what he's doing, then make your check payable to Rainey Williams, take him out, and take his place in the furnace.

[Pete]

Absolutely nobody is dumping on Rainey Williams.

See my post immediately above.

[Steve]

Pete, I think your perception and my perception of what Williams did at BOK and the nearby garage are far different. I saw what BOK Plaza was looking like before Williams bought it, and it was in serious danger of becoming a class C building and losing BOK as an anchor. The garage was an embarrassment. The renovations I saw were extensive on the inside. The tile crumbling tile plaza on the outside was fixed up, the outside received some cosmetic improvements as you pointed out.
My understanding is the renovations exceeded $4 million.
Again, perception.
I'm not sure I'm keen on the idea of my being classified as a booster simply because I questioned whether people are focusing too much on height. Notice what else I said - there are other questions to also look at - most notably will DDRC approve demo of Stage Center without having the actual architectural designs for the new buildings to look at? I wouldn't call that question one that is friendly to Williams.
I promise you, height will not play a role in whether Stage Center gets torn down and replaced with this development, regardless of who might be upset at OKC Talk. The question is whether the design will be up to snuff - and some of the same folks upset over the height in this thread were among those first saying they liked the initial renderings. But again, those showed how the block will be built up and designed, not the actual facade architecture.

[Spartan]

I'm blaming the developer. I blame the tower design for being small. If he can't pull off a higher tower then fine, but this low height building really belongs somewhere else. Some don't care about height at all, I really do.

I disagree give me a break dude. What this site does NOT need is a 40 story tower with an imposing sole sign and a corporate moat/plaza. This project is way better and it compliments Devon which is cool.

[Spartan]

Why is everybody dumping on Rainey Williams? Because he isn't building a second Devon Tower? Because he isn't building 20+ stories? Because he isn't living up to everyone's expectation on this board? Everbody sure seems to be underwhelmed with his proposal, but unless I'm wrong, it's the first CBD office building built with spec space in 30 years (Leadership Square). That he's building ANYTHING is to be commended. We need the space, and he's bringing it to the market. Kudos.

Furthermore, he has chosen a site where an emotional city landmark has stood for 40 years. Some say that it's a building with architectural significance that should be preserved, others call it an unaffordable eyesore that should be torn down, but all must admit that anyone could have purchased and preserved Stage Center, but no-one came forward. As a pragmatist I see that we must move ahead, while recognizing that this infuriates preservationists, many of whom are close friends.

Stage Center will be replaced. If not by Rainey Williams then by someone else. If not now then at some time in the near future. If not 20 stories, then 20 +/- a few. If not with OG+E then with another anchor tenant. If not X then Y. But it will be replaced.

So discuss why >20 or <20, or why OG+E versus another company, or why single-use versus mixed-use, or whatever you'd like to discuss. Just stop throwing under the bus a guy who has the ba**s to do what is going to be done, mostly with his own money, according to his own plan, for which he'll be vilified and might even lose his investment. If you don't like what he's doing, then make your check payable to Rainey Williams, take him out, and take his place in the furnace.

You had me until you said we need anything lol...

[Pete]

Steve, didn't mean that you were being a booster -- just that it's a growing and pervasive syndrome and one that can often squelch needed public feedback.

A community is made stronger by discussion, and I don't see anyone here being disrespectful or unreasonable.


I'm sure we all hope this turns into an amazing development... But from what we know now, it's far from amazing.

And I still haven't seen anything other than opinion as to why we should all just assume this is going to turn out great. Therefore, the opinion and concern that it might not turn out great seems to be equally valid and worthy of discussion.

[Spartan]

Pete, I think your perception and my perception of what Williams did at BOK and the nearby garage are far different. I saw what BOK Plaza was looking like before Williams bought it, and it was in serious danger of becoming a class C building and losing BOK as an anchor. The garage was an embarrassment. The renovations I saw were extensive on the inside. The tile crumbling tile plaza on the outside was fixed up, the outside received some cosmetic improvements as you pointed out.
My understanding is the renovations exceeded $4 million.
Again, perception.
I'm not sure I'm keen on the idea of my being classified as a booster simply because I questioned whether people are focusing too much on height. Notice what else I said - there are other questions to also look at - most notably will DDRC approve demo of Stage Center without having the actual architectural designs for the new buildings to look at? I wouldn't call that question one that is friendly to Williams.
I promise you, height will not play a role in whether Stage Center gets torn down and replaced with this development, regardless of who might be upset at OKC Talk. The question is whether the design will be up to snuff - and some of the same folks upset over the height in this thread were among those first saying they liked the initial renderings. But again, those showed how the block will be built up and designed, not the actual facade architecture.

I'm with Steve. I don't read these comments and hear a blind defense of RW but rather an informed argument trying to hone real concerns with this project. We do need to put the height issue behind is bc t obscures the real debate that needs to be had. It's a tower and it's significant enough.

[Steve]

Steve, didn't mean that you were being a booster -- just that it's a growing and pervasive syndrome and one that can often squelch needed public feedback.

A community is made stronger by discussion, and I don't see anyone here being disrespectful or unreasonable.


I'm sure we all hope this turns into an amazing development... But from what we know now, it's far from amazing.

And I still haven't seen anything other than opinion as to why we should all just assume this is going to turn out great. Therefore, the opinion and concern that it might not turn out great seems to be equally valid and worthy of discussion.

Cool. And I agree - this whole proposition should be subject to a thorough discussion of what is gained and lost, of what expectations should be set, etc.
I've asked this before, I'll ask it again: if folks on this board had their choice, would they prefer one 60-story building or would they prefer a 16-story tower, a 12-story building, a 20-story tower and another 20-story tower?

[Pete]

At the risk of being labeled a Philistine, given where OKC is right now, I'd take the 60-story building in a heartbeat.

We are trying to build our national image and another Devon Tower would be amazing -- just like the first one was.

There will be plenty of mid-rises in the future.

[Spartan]

I would take the density every time, Pete. Is there something you're seeing around here that indicates we don't need more density still?

Tbh, just driving and walking around a lot in the last few days, and though I'm very excited to be back home, it hits me how badly blighted and underdeveloped OKC still is. Even downtown. We need horizontal density more than we need vertical erections.

[bchris02]

It's not that Rainey isn't living up to the expectations of OKCTalk members. It's the fact that he isn't living up to what he said he was going to do when the tower was announced back in July. If he's scaled it down this much between then and now, how much more is he going to scale it down AFTER the demolition of the Stage Center?

[Spartan]

It's not that Rainey isn't living up to the expectations of OKCTalk members. It's the fact that he isn't living up to what he said he was going to do when the tower was announced back in July. If he's scaled it down this much between then and now, how much more is he going to scale it down AFTER the demolition of the Stage Center?

I'm not here to fault a developer for changing slightly between rhetoric stage and concept. I'd fault someone for changes between demolition and construction, or as we quite often see, between permitting and completion. This isn't that. Yet.

[Pete]

I would take the density every time, Pete. Is there something you're seeing around here that indicates we don't need more density still?

Tbh, just driving and walking around a lot in the last few days, and though I'm very excited to be back home, it hits me how badly blighted and underdeveloped OKC still is. Even downtown. We need horizontal density more than we need vertical erections.

Yes, but no matter the height, we are still just talking about one block here.

You could also argue that the excitement and enthusiasm around something super-obvious and impressive like Devon Tower drives a lot of in-fill development.

[Plutonic Panda]

I disagree give me a break dude. What this site does NOT need is a 40 story tower with an imposing sole sign and a corporate moat/plaza. This project is way better and it compliments Devon which is cool.

Spartan, I corrected my post to say I am NOT blaming the developer here-excuse me for that. It is just a matter of opinion and I respect your opinion and understand some people don't care about height. I do care about height and to me, this tower is small in that regard. I am sure this building will be bigger and make a bigger impact than most expect, but come on man, 14 stories!? I would be just fine with this development if it were 35 stories and anything above that would be an added bonus. I don't expect it to be bigger than the Devon Tower(which I would love to see a building or two bigger than 900ft here but I'm not getting my hopes up).

As someone who wants to participate in developing in the urban core one day and building great urban projects, let me say I wish the best of luck to Williams and hope he is successful in building this tower. All I can say is if it were me, I would build it in Midtown or somewhere in Film Row, not in the CBD.

[Spartan]

We have too much in flux right now to quantify what Devon has led to so if anything it has led more to speculation IMO. There isn't a trade off with organic growth, it really is what we need.

Case in point: Our years-long of waiting for anything on the Preftakes block. I'm just at the point of collapsing from holding my breath so long on all of this.

[tomokc]

Rainey will forever be known as "the guy who tore down Stage Center," no matter what he replaces it with, how high it is built, who occupies it, or how successful a project it is. It's a sure bet that other serious developers took a pass on this location because THEY would earn that moniker and forever be known as "the guy who..."

Steve & Pete debate an interesting point about Williams' most visible urban office project, BOK Tower. Was he successful? By what measure? Was he an active developer, passive investor or something else? Did this BOK experience prepare him for this new project, or are they mostly incomparable? All good questions. Same goes for those about surplus structured parking. And "he initially said it would be ___, but now it's going to be ___." Project plans typically change constantly between initial concept and building completion - why shouldn't this project be any different? Heck, he doesn't even have a demolition permit in hand yet!

But he's doing something that was certain - redeveloping Stage Center - and doing it mostly with his own money (and that of investors), while bringing a new, attractive addition to the skyline, and new, Class A office space to the general market.

[Plutonic Panda]

Cool. And I agree - this whole proposition should be subject to a thorough discussion of what is gained and lost, of what expectations should be set, etc.
I've asked this before, I'll ask it again: if folks on this board had their choice, would they prefer one 60-story building or would they prefer a 16-story tower, a 12-story building, a 20-story tower and another 20-story tower?

I'd pick the 60 story building over any 20 story tower or less in the CBD.

[Spartan]

I'd pick the 60 story building over any 20 story tower or less in the CBD.

And that's the deeply insightful and thoughtful perspective you're known for...