OG&E Tower

[OKCisOK4me]

Wrong. Initial reports from Devon were that it would be around 30-35 stories.

Yes, it was thought to be 30-35 stories, which was great because Chase is 36 and we knew the floor heights would be built taller. Then when the model came out with the 925' height, we were all blown away. Then ya lose 81' but by then it doesn't matter cause its still taller than anything else downtown.

This project just leaves a bad taste in your mouth...

[Pete]

I think the point here is the proposal we are seeing is somewhat of a best case scenario.

We know the office tower won't be much taller and it could be shorter. Nothing is remotely definite on anything other than a parking garage.


Remember, all this came out as part of the application they filed for the demolition of Stage Center. I'm sure this is all the committee is going to see before making their decision.

[adaniel]

I am bit surprised to see how negative the reactions have turned on this, in just 2 days no less.

It had pretty good street interaction, now it doesn't?

Height wasn't a big deal, now it's too short and should be on Memorial or NWX?

The plans are fluid and could change, now we can definitely say it will be trimmed back?

I'm really confused. What has changed here?

[Pete]

^

For me, time to reflect and think about the bigger picture.

Also, the realization this will be little more than a private building for OG&E.

[Plutonic Panda]

I am bit surprised to see how negative the reactions have turned on this, in just 2 days no less.

It had pretty good street interaction, now it doesn't?

Height wasn't a big deal, now it's too short and should be on Memorial or NWX?

The plans are fluid and could change, now we can definitely say it will be trimmed back?

I'm really confused. What has changed here?

Same thing as Pete. I have had time to really think about it and all the hype kind of got to me and I thought it was good enough, but now I realize it is not nor is anywhere close.

There are tons of vacant lots all over downtown, seriously, a building like this has plenty of possible homes, not right in the CBD next to an awesome park. We need a building of at least 35 stories(I would like to see 60+, but I'm trying to be realistic), that compliments the area, not this 14 story HQ that might have a grocery store and a restaurant. If that is the selling point and people accept it, then that is really sad.

[Teo9969]

Lots of people think that a grass lot would be an improvement over the stage center

And every single one of those persons is being nothing less than asinine. That might be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on this forum.

[adaniel]

I think some candor and honesty are needed here.

Nobody really knows what else was proposed here for the Stage Center. There is a thought process on here that someone was proposing building the next Burj Khalifa on this site and lost out. I have my doubts (btw whoever said some have gotten emotionally attached to this devlopment are spot on). And given the nugget that this building was going to be taller because it was going to be about half spec space and yet they couldn't make it work makes me have my doubts that there is a crushing need for class A office space downtown. No doubt it is a healthy market and space is tight, but most companies DT are smaller firms and are looking for a floor or two worth of space. At the risk of sounding like an Ayn Rand fanboy, you can only build what the market allows.

And this notion that everything downtown's prime spots need to be at least 35 stories....I guarantee you if this thought process takes hold in city hall that will be the beginning of the end of any sort of large scale urban development in the CBD. At 35 stories, that would easily be the second tallest building in the city. Would NYC limit development in Manhattan to a height no less then the Empire State Building? This isn't about "settling for less", certainly not suggesting that any old crap just be put anywhere. But in mid sized cities there are a plethora of midrise office buildings that add to the fabric of their CBD's. The question should be does a development give back to the general area in terms of interaction.

The concern on whether this will be just a private HQ building is a fair one. So far I am impressed with the conceptual drawings, but I will withhold judgement until plans are finalized.

[OKCisOK4me]

I don't think it's fair to base development in OKC to development in NYC...just sayin'.

[Teo9969]

My biggest problem is I have no reason to trust that things are going to turn out well for this project. The problem started when Williams couldn't stand by his own word about further announcements on the project, and that when he finally did come through 2 months behind his own established schedule, his first announcement had previously oversold this current delivery.

Maybe downtown is not ready for a $250M+ development yet, and that's fine, but we need to avoid using prime spots to do these. Not a single person would be complaining about this project if it were on 4th and Hudson. Everyone here would be balls to the wall excited, even if it was originally sold as a 30 story building and was scaled back down to this. Literally just about any other site in OKC, I don't think anybody would have any qualms.

As several have said, this is one of the most important pieces of property in downtown OKC, and while this project has some nice urban principles and has a chance to be something enjoyable for OKC, it is closer to the "total failure" end of the spectrum than it is to the "world class" end. To be sure it's well between those two, but if Rainey Williams and OKC think this fits any rational definition of world-class (his words), then we are so much further behind than I ever imagined.

[okcpulse]

I think some candor and honesty are needed here.

Nobody really knows what else was proposed here for the Stage Center. There is a thought process on here that someone was proposing building the next Burj Khalifa on this site and lost out. I have my doubts (btw whoever said some have gotten emotionally attached to this devlopment are spot on). And given the nugget that this building was going to be taller because it was going to be about half spec space and yet they couldn't make it work makes me have my doubts that there is a crushing need for class A office space downtown. No doubt it is a healthy market and space is tight, but most companies DT are smaller firms and are looking for a floor or two worth of space. At the risk of sounding like an Ayn Rand fanboy, you can only build what the market allows.

And this notion that everything downtown's prime spots need to be at least 35 stories....I guarantee you if this thought process takes hold in city hall that will be the beginning of the end of any sort of large scale urban development in this city. At 35 stories, that would easily be the second tallest building in the city. Would NYC limit development in Manhattan to a height no less then the Empire State Building? This isn't about "settling for less", certainly not suggesting that any old crap just be put anywhere. But in mid sized cities there are a plethora of midrise office buildings that add to the fabric of their CBD's. The question should be does a development give back to the general area in terms of interaction.

The concern on whether this will be just a private HQ building is a fair one. So far I am impressed with the conceptual drawings, but I will withhold judgement until plans are finalized.

Steve Lackmeyer did drop hints that he is tracking another tower and a possible third tower in development. If these two other towers are building out spec space, then it is likely that competing projects reduced the scope and size of the Rainey Williams development. So downtown office space is likely still pretty hot in demand if what Lackmeyer is saying pans out. I am personally not disappointed with this development. Why? Because I would like to see as much mid rise development as I would high rise. We lost a lot of beautiful mid rises during the wrecking-ball spree of the 1970s, so I would like to see some of that return to our skyline, be it 14 or 20 floors. I have no doubt we will see at least one 30+ story tower before the decade is finished.

[Pete]

And this notion that everything downtown's prime spots need to be at least 35 stories....I guarantee you if this thought process takes hold in city hall that will be the beginning of the end of any sort of large scale urban development in the CBD.

This site, given the massive public investment on both sides and the fact it will occupy only one of two prime spots left on the garden's perimeter, should bring at least ONE of these aspects:

1. Be tall enough to add to the skyline (25+ stories) in a way that impresses citizens and visitors alike that OKC is growing and moving up in the world
2. Have a fantastic interaction with the park and a good amount of truly public space that will benefit the entire community, draw and engage more people into the park, etc.
3. Bring a new company and new jobs to downtown


This has NONE of those things. I think most people would have settled for any one and truthfully, given what the City is losing and what has been invested all around, there is a strong argument for requiring all three.

Otherwise, hold the property until these things can happen. OCURA could buy it; it was only $4.275 million and they are running around buying up far less important properties near the not-even-built Central Park. Stage Center has been sitting largely vacant for decades, what is the big rush here?


Let's put it this way, if from the beginning it was obvious that Stage Center was going to be demolished for a company that is already downtown and not planning to grow in any significant way, that the building will be virtually private and that it be no taller than 16 stories, do you think anyone would have been behind this project from the outset?

Or, don't you think people would all say: "No, we need something better in this special spot before we destroy something unique and valuable."


Frankly, this just isn't good enough in virtually any aspect -- not for this site.

Go build it at Hudson & Kerr and people would probably be okay with it.

[Paseofreak]

So, are there any ordinances or other legal means to enforce this, or is this all just opinions, valid as they may be?

[Pete]

So, are there any ordinances or other legal means to enforce this, or is this all just opinions, valid as they may be?

There is a public process here where 1) they have to receive approval to demolish Stage Center; and 2) where the final design has to be approved by the Downtown Design Review Committee (same group that will review the demo app).

Citizens are welcome to contact the committee members and attend and speak at the meetings.

Also, there is a big "Save the Stage Center" initiative where they are collecting signatures on a petition and will certainly present a coordinated opposition to the demo.

[Pete]

Here is the Save the Stage Center petition:

http://www.change.org/petitions/okla...e-stage-center

[Paseofreak]

OK, but without written standards, any blockage of what I see in the renderings seems to stand a huge chance of being found arbitrary and capricious.

[Pete]

OK, but without written standards, any blockage of what I see in the renderings seems to stand a huge chance of being found arbitrary and capricious.

Yes, from a design standpoint.

Not necessarily true in terms of demolition.

[Paseofreak]

OK, thanks for the clarification.

[progressiveboy]

I think some candor and honesty are needed here.

Nobody really knows what else was proposed here for the Stage Center. There is a thought process on here that someone was proposing building the next Burj Khalifa on this site and lost out. I have my doubts (btw whoever said some have gotten emotionally attached to this devlopment are spot on). And given the nugget that this building was going to be taller because it was going to be about half spec space and yet they couldn't make it work makes me have my doubts that there is a crushing need for class A office space downtown. No doubt it is a healthy market and space is tight, but most companies DT are smaller firms and are looking for a floor or two worth of space. At the risk of sounding like an Ayn Rand fanboy, you can only build what the market allows.

And this notion that everything downtown's prime spots need to be at least 35 stories....I guarantee you if this thought process takes hold in city hall that will be the beginning of the end of any sort of large scale urban development in the CBD. At 35 stories, that would easily be the second tallest building in the city. Would NYC limit development in Manhattan to a height no less then the Empire State Building? This isn't about "settling for less", certainly not suggesting that any old crap just be put anywhere. But in mid sized cities there are a plethora of midrise office buildings that add to the fabric of their CBD's. The question should be does a development give back to the general area in terms of interaction.

The concern on whether this will be just a private HQ building is a fair one. So far I am impressed with the conceptual drawings, but I will withhold judgement until plans are finalized.

Agree! Thanks for an "objective" point of view. Some people seem to have gotten to emotionally attached concerning this development. These same people would gripe and complain if it was an iconic 60 story tower with stunning views and architecture. Living in Dallas, there are several mid rises either breaking ground or proposed and the residents are not complaining at all. Once again, i dare say, tear down that ugly, hideous structure of Stage Center!!!

[bchris02]

As several have said, this is one of the most important pieces of property in downtown OKC, and while this project has some nice urban principles and has a chance to be something enjoyable for OKC, it is closer to the "total failure" end of the spectrum than it is to the "world class" end. To be sure it's well between those two, but if Rainey Williams and OKC think this fits any rational definition of world-class (his words), then we are so much further behind than I ever imagined.

Completely agree. To me, this is shaping up to be another development fail in a long string of them in this city that includes Lower Bricktown, Belle Isle, Classen Curve, Tuscana, etc, etc, etc. I do not trust that the final product will even be anything close to the rendering we have today. These things are always SCALED DOWN. It's time for OKC to stop accepting the bare minimum. You may say this project, as shown in the rendering is already above the bare minimum and is actually a quality product. That's when the location comes into play. This project would be amazing in the extremely dilapidated south Midtown area or at 4th and Hudson. Not at the Stage Center site which should be reserved for something iconic. Again, I do not trust that the rendering is what we will actually end up with, so we may be destroying the Stage Center for something that makes the current rendering look attractive. It's time for OKC to move beyond "anything better than crappy makes us happy."

[catch22]

Completely agree. To me, this is shaping up to be another development fail in a long string of them in this city that includes Lower Bricktown, Belle Isle, Classen Curve, Tuscana, etc, etc, etc. I do not trust that the final product will even be anything close to the rendering we have today. These things are always SCALED DOWN. It's time for OKC to stop accepting the bare minimum. You may say this project, as shown in the rendering is already above the bare minimum and is actually a quality product. That's when the location comes into play. This project would be amazing in the extremely dilapidated south Midtown area or at 4th and Hudson. Not at the Stage Center site which should be reserved for something iconic. Again, I do not trust that the rendering is what we will actually end up with, so we may be destroying the Stage Center for something that makes the current rendering look attractive. It's time for OKC to move beyond "anything better than crappy makes us happy."

Will you ever be satisfied then?

What if someone proposed a 60 floor building, would you support the project? You probably wouldn't because you would be afraid financing would fall through after the Stage Center was demo'd.

People need to remove their emotions from this. This thread has gotten ridiculous. Also proves a point that this forum largely has a one track mind, if there appears to be a motion to go a different direction, everyone will suddenly change their minds and go that way, whatever that direction is.

[Pete]

I don't see this as the end of the world or even a failure, just a huge missed opportunity.

I'm also sure the demolition and design will get approved with little real resistance.

[bchris02]

Agree! Thanks for an "objective" point of view. Some people seem to have gotten to emotionally attached concerning this development. These same people would gripe and complain if it was an iconic 60 story tower with stunning views and architecture. Living in Dallas, there are several mid rises either breaking ground or proposed and the residents are not complaining at all. Once again, i dare say, tear down that ugly, hideous structure of Stage Center!!!

What if a developer in Dallas wanted to tear down Reunion Tower to build a 15 story office building?

[Pete]

Some people seem to have gotten to emotionally attached concerning this development.

That is a very good thing and a indication of how many people really care about what happens in OKC.

[bchris02]

Will you ever be satisfied then?

What if someone proposed a 60 floor building, would you support the project? You probably wouldn't because you would be afraid financing would fall through after the Stage Center was demo'd.

People need to remove their emotions from this. This thread has gotten ridiculous. Also proves a point that this forum largely has a one track mind, if there appears to be a motion to go a different direction, everyone will suddenly change their minds and go that way, whatever that direction is.

Yes, I would be satisfied with a 60 story building. I would even be satisfied with a 30 story building or possibly even a 20 story building at minimum as long as it is good architecture.

This building isn't bad as shown in the rendering. In fact, its great by OKC standards, but in the grand scheme of things we are destroying a very special landmark for a building that isn't really that special.

[progressiveboy]

What if a developer in Dallas wanted to tear down Reunion Tower to build a 15 story office building?

Not going to happen! Besides it appears you have become to emotionally attached with this development. First it is Walmart and it's domination in the OKC market, then it is about how OKC does not measure to your standards. You seem to be very unhappy living in OKC. Question? What are you doing to make OKC a more viable city to live in? Why do you continue to live in OKC? As other posters have mentioned, you constantly put a negative spin on OKC so if you are so unhappy living there why do you continue to be miserable? Just saying.