Biggest needs in our city

[ChristianConservative]

Biggest needs on our city:

Needs:
1. City-wide beautification (helps all of the below)
2. Continued improvement of our schools above and beyond MAPS for Kids
3. Continued appropriate funding for our police and fire depts.
4. Continued expansion of our public library system
5. Continued work on luring high-paying jobs to the metro
6. Continued improvement of our inner city with city-help.
7. Continued improvements at the fairgrounds (the return on this investment is huge).


Items that have been listed that are neat but that we have no use for at the moment, and would only drain money away from the above areas:
1. NFL football stadiums
2. 60 gate airports
3. lengthened canal
4. commuter rail
5. Symbols like huge Native American statues or oil
towers
6. Helping private companies who can otherwise fund
their own construction

[ultimatesooner]

I would move #5 on needs to #1

[ChristianConservative]

I would move #5 on needs to #1

Oh, those weren't in any specific order.

[Easy180]

I would remove #4 and #7 and put them down with the neat list

And change your #6 of the neat list to the needs list and have it read:

Helping private companies who wouldn't otherwise consider relocating or expanding into OKC w/o the incentives

[Patrick]

I would remove #4 and #7 and put them down with the neat list

And change your #6 of the neat list to the needs list and have it read:

Helping private companies who wouldn't otherwise consider relocating or expanding into OKC w/o the incentives

I disagree with moving #7. Our State Fairgrounds produce huge sums of money for our city. Much work still needs to be done to improve the fairgrounds. If we don't continue to improve the fairgrounds, the horse shows will leave. That will be millions and millions of dollars lost every year.

I could see possibly taking #4 off the list.

In regards to #6 I don't think luring a Bass Pro Shops was really a NEED for our city.

[ChristianConservative]

Agreed with Patrick on the Oklahoma State Fairgrounds.

I would favor city-assistance of private companies if it meant more higher-paying jobs for the metro, but giving assistance to Bass Pro is not a need for Oklahoma City. We are no better off with Bass Pro than we were before Bass Pro.

[Easy180]

Bass Pro is only one example and that was done to bring in an anchor for Bricktown so it was somewhat unique

[Midtowner]

I would favor city-assistance of private companies if it meant more higher-paying jobs for the metro, but giving assistance to Bass Pro is not a need for Oklahoma City. We are know better off with Bass Pro than we were before Bass Pro.

I'd say we're actually worse off. We have a chain store which does okay (not great) taking up a huge amount of land in OKC's best entertainment district.

Spending public money in pursuit of an operation which brings a lot of $7.00/hr jobs is not a good way to spend public money.

Of course, at the time, Gaylord Entertainment owned a 1/3 stake in Bass Pro, so I think we can probably guess why and how this project happened the way it did.

[Easy180]

So the hourly pay should be the sole factor in deciding which companies to go after?...Was there better companies lined up at the door that would be better suited for bricktown?

[Patrick]

So the hourly pay should be the sole factor in deciding which companies to go after?...Was there better companies lined up at the door that would be better suited for bricktown?

Yes and no. David Cordish had a plan on the table to bring high end retail to Bricktown, stores like Gucci, Saks, etc. And he was going to finance all of the construction HIMSELF without the need for city subsidies.

Randy Hogan promised when he was awarded the development deed that he could "finance every square inch of the project and lease it back." If that was true, why didn't Randy put up the money to build Bass Pro? Why did the city have to step in?

[ChristianConservative]

I'd say we're actually worse off. We have a chain store which does okay (not great) taking up a huge amount of land in OKC's best entertainment district.

Tulsa was smarter. They said no to Bass Pro. Instead, a Tulsa suburb, Broken Arrow, put up the money. Bass Pro fits better in suburbia than in an urban area.

[ChristianConservative]

So the hourly pay should be the sole factor in deciding which companies to go after?...Was there better companies lined up at the door that would be better suited for bricktown?

I'd rather take Tulsa's strategy: demand better. If this were Tulsa they would've voted down Bass Pro, and waited out for a better plan. In OKC we are too much in a hurry, and this results in second class developments.

I still haven't figured out why we the taxpayers thought it was a good idea to give money to Hogan to build luxury offices on Lake Hefner for the wealthy business owners. I bet the owners of the building where my corp. leases space would've liked a free hand out.

[writerranger]

That's a pretty good list, Conservative. I especially like the beautification which is rarely considered important. Making this city LOOK like a city with distinctive architecture and scenery is crucial. We must accept the fact that we were built on the southern plains and our natural "beauty" is not one of our assets. Too many people come here and have nice things to say, but also add, "It's not much to look at though." (Or some variation thereof.)

------------

[Easy180]

So there isn't any room now for a "better" company to come into Bricktown?...Why not bring in Bass Pro along with others...Not that OKC doled out their only available money to Bass Pro

[BDP]

That's a good list Conservative and I think your points about Bass Pro are dead on. In addition to issues of the role of government in corporate aid, that was a weak move on just about every level. It also set a bad precedent for lower bricktown and now it can't even achieve the density of store fronts needed to make it a viable retail location.

I think the fairgrounds is a good point as well. Whether anyone likes it or not, we have a huge state fairgrounds right in the middle of our city. It is really one of the most visible things in our city. It also brings in a lot of outsiders with money to spend in our city. Given its location, there is really no reason it shouldn't be one of the best in the country. It is as vital to our convention business as is the Ford and the Cox. It's not going away in any of our lifetimes and, as long as it is there, I think our goal should be to make it a jewel of the city.

Fairground do not have to be just dirty, stinky, dusty, and gravelly facilities that are used sporadically. There is also a lot of unused or underused land there that could be rethought. It also doesn't have to be limited to gun shows, tractor pulls, and carnival rides. It could have a museum campus, a civic park, a grand amphitheater or other unique attractions that make it a year round destination for locals to go along with its function as a special events campus. I think if we stop thinking of it as just a fairgrounds, it's potential begins to grow.

[ChristianConservative]

That's a pretty good list, Conservative. I especially like the beautification which is rarely considered important. Making this city LOOK like a city with distinctive architecture and scenery is crucial. We must accept the fact that we were built on the southern plains and our natural "beauty" is not one of our assets. Too many people come here and have nice things to say, but also add, "It's not much to look at though." (Or some variation thereof.)

------------

You'd be surprised how much corporations look at city beautification when they consider locating in a town. One of the reasons my corporation chose Oklahoma City over Dallas was due to the litter problems in Dallas. Of course, that wasn't near the top of our list, but it was still considered.

[ChristianConservative]

So there isn't any room now for a "better" company to come into Bricktown?...Why not bring in Bass Pro along with others...Not that OKC doled out their only available money to Bass Pro

So do you want to invte Wal-Mart to build next door to Bass Pro? A big box retailer is a big box retailer. Bass Pro is nothing more than a big box subruban retail store located in the middle of what's supposed to be an urban downtown district. A complete waste of the MAPS Use Tax Money IMO.

[ChristianConservative]

That's a good list Conservative and I think your points about Bass Pro are dead on. In addition to issues of the role of government in corporate aid, that was a weak move on just about every level. It also set a bad precedent for lower bricktown and now it can't even achieve the density of store fronts needed to make it a viable retail location.

At the very least, if they were going to build a Bass Pro Shop Store in Bricktown, it should've been on the canal, with a parking garage in the rear. The current store sets a bad example for an "urban" entertainment district.

I think the fairgrounds is a good point as well. Whether anyone likes it or not, we have a huge state fairgrounds right in the middle of our city. It is really one of the most visible things in our city. It also brings in a lot of outsiders with money to spend in our city. Given its location, there is really no reason it shouldn't be one of the best in the country. It is as vital to our convention business as is the Ford and the Cox. It's not going away in any of our lifetimes and, as long as it is there, I think our goal should be to make it a jewel of the city.

Our fairgrounds, while host to a lot of horse shows, still needs major work. Theres no reason why we shouldn't be in a position to try to steal the National Finals Rodeo back from Las Vegas. Whether people like it or not, the horse industry means big bucks to our state.

Fairground do not have to be just dirty, stinky, dusty, and gravelly facilities that are used sporadically. There is also a lot of unused or underused land there that could be rethought. It also doesn't have to be limited to gun shows, tractor pulls, and carnival rides. It could have a museum campus, a civic park, a grand amphitheater or other unique attractions that make it a year round destination for locals to go along with its function as a special events campus. I think if we stop thinking of it as just a fairgrounds, it's potential begins to grow.

I don't understand why we can't make our fairgrounds a first class facility. This is my goal as a member of the fair board. When I think of our fairground, I think of the dirt parking lots, gravel parking lots, overgrown grass, fading paint, deteriorating grand stand, unappealing buildings, etc. We can do better.

[BDP]

You'd be surprised how much corporations look at city beautification when they consider locating in a town.

Very true. Corporations compete for qualified workers. These workers are going to live in that community. Most people want to make their lives in a beautiful place, especially if they have the opportunity to make a choice. Corporations know that if they locate their facilities in an undesirable place, they will have trouble recruiting the best workers.

[BDP]

Whether people like it or not, the horse industry means big bucks to our state.

No doubt. These are people that have a lot of disposable income, obviously, and they spend it when they're in town.

I don't understand why we can't make our fairgrounds a first class facility. This is my goal as a member of the fair board. When I think of our fairground, I think of the dirt parking lots, gravel parking lots, overgrown grass, fading paint, deteriorating grand stand, unappealing buildings, etc. We can do better.

It's good that we have someone like you working on the board that recognizes its potential and doesn't want to settle on its current condition.

At the very least, if they were going to build a Bass Pro Shop Store in Bricktown, it should've been on the canal, with a parking garage in the rear. The current store sets a bad example for an "urban" entertainment district.

No doubt. I for one know that the development on the lower canal is about as opposite as you can get from what I envisioned when the canal was proposed. At this point I don't even know why the canal is there when the developers have such a blatant disregard for it. Did anyone really imagine that the canal would be fronted by a parking lot anywhere on its path? It's crazy that no one ever zoned the canal to forbid surface parking within 100 yards of it, or how about even 100 feet?

I always kind of laugh when people say Bass Pro was publicly financed so it could anchor retail on the lower canal. What retail is it anchoring??? There's not even any additional retail space for it to anchor! OK, so, the Sonic building has one retail tenant (Firefly. HA, I'm sure those two places have a lot of crossover ) and maybe, maybe room for a couple of more and I'm pretty sure that everyone else there is there for the movie theater traffic, which is much broader. Basically, we bought a battleship anchor for a bass boat.

It's pretty obvious that it was a scam, as many suspected at the time.

I think the last chance for a nice canal development would be if all the parking is moved south when I-40 moves and all of the current surface parking developed.

[Easy180]

I can't begin to list all my friends from out of town that were disgusted by a Bass Pro at the very end of the Bricktown district...I can see your arguments if it was next to the Brewery, but it's on the very end of the district so it does little to damage the urban look of bricktown

Hell I would much rather have a Dave and Busters there, but I can picture much worse things in Bass's place

[TStheThird]

I still laugh out loud when I think of all the talk how the Bass Pro was the key to the whole project. The key to what project? Many other developers have built better developments around the city and in Edmond and it didn't take Bass Pro to make it happen.

Randy Hogan is a fraud and should be run out of town.

[Easy180]

Yeah Bricktown is really struggling right now

[Patrick]

Yeah Bricktown is really struggling right now

Actually, Bricktown is struggling. The businesses down there have seen profts decline, and crowds flocking to Bricktown have decreased.

[BDP]

but it's on the very end of the district so it does little to damage the urban look of bricktown

Think of the opportunity cost. It basically stunted lower bricktown's possibility of being anything special like bricktown proper is. If people told you that we were going to use public money to build a canal so we could front it with parking for a Bass Pro that we would publicly finance, you honestly can tell me that you think that would be the best way to develop the land adjacent to the city's central entertainment district and possibly the most valuable retail land in the city? Lower bricktown is nothing that the thriving metropolis of Moore Oklahoma couldn’t do. In fact, they’re doing just about the same thing without publicly financing it.

Lower Bricktown, beginning with Bass Pro, has been a HUGE lost opportunity that we actually paid for. As a thriving retail center (the way it was pitched) it is looking like a lost cause.