OG&E Tower

[Rover]

I'm not sure that we need to lose the Stage Center for a small tower...

I thought it was all about street level density and interaction with little emphasis on height.

[gsan]

I'm not sure that we need to lose the Stage Center for a small tower...

Give me a break.

[Spartan]

Wait. You'd rather have a closed down, non functional, dead to the world inside with no viable hope for recovery building

So what happens when this above phrase describes our new small tower?

Back in urban renewal's first wave practically nobody stood up for the Criterion. 40 years from now, we will probably regret replacing Johansen's masterpiece with a small tower.

I am parting with urbanists on this. I believe OKC deserves a little architectural panache, and what better way to do that than dust off what we already have. Anyone who thinks Stage Center was ever given a chance to shine or even be a part of OKC's urban fabric is wrong, and that's separate from the larger debate here.

As for the reaction to my post, I absolutely am viewing THIS small tower within the context of whether it would be better than a revitalized Stage Center, and i think others should view it within that context, also.

So far nothing to do with the development of this small tower has followed the pattern we'd expect with a quality, legitimate skyscraper. Instead of seeing anything tangible we've had big deadlines followed by multiple rounds of underwhelming news, delays, and a developer who isn't talking.

The phrase "world class" is bandied around OKC so much that it's actually more cause for alarm than anything else.

[OKCisOK4me]

Negative ghostrider ^^^ Replace stage center with an urban Target and I'm happy. It's not a Frank Lloyd Wright...

[Spartan]

What is a negative ghost rider?

[TAlan CB]

So what happens when this above phrase describes our new small tower?

Back in urban renewal's first wave practically nobody stood up for the Criterion. 40 years from now, we will probably regret replacing Johansen's masterpiece with a small tower.

I am parting with urbanists on this. I believe OKC deserves a little architectural panache, and what better way to do that than dust off what we already have. Anyone who thinks Stage Center was ever given a chance to shine or even be a part of OKC's urban fabric is wrong, and that's separate from the larger debate here.

As for the reaction to my post, I absolutely am viewing THIS small tower within the context of whether it would be better than a revitalized Stage Center, and i think others should view it within that context, also.

So far nothing to do with the development of this small tower has followed the pattern we'd expect with a quality, legitimate skyscraper. Instead of seeing anything tangible we've had big deadlines followed by multiple rounds of underwhelming news, delays, and a developer who isn't talking.

The phrase "world class" is bandied around OKC so much that it's actually more cause for alarm than anything else.

Exactly!

[Plutonic Panda]

I'm not sure that we need to lose the Stage Center for a small tower...

yup

[Teo9969]

So what happens when this above phrase describes our new small tower?

Back in urban renewal's first wave practically nobody stood up for the Criterion. 40 years from now, we will probably regret replacing Johansen's masterpiece with a small tower.

I am parting with urbanists on this. I believe OKC deserves a little architectural panache, and what better way to do that than dust off what we already have. Anyone who thinks Stage Center was ever given a chance to shine or even be a part of OKC's urban fabric is wrong, and that's separate from the larger debate here.

As for the reaction to my post, I absolutely am viewing THIS small tower within the context of whether it would be better than a revitalized Stage Center, and i think others should view it within that context, also.

So far nothing to do with the development of this small tower has followed the pattern we'd expect with a quality, legitimate skyscraper. Instead of seeing anything tangible we've had big deadlines followed by multiple rounds of underwhelming news, delays, and a developer who isn't talking.

The phrase "world class" is bandied around OKC so much that it's actually more cause for alarm than anything else.

+1

[catcherinthewry]

Replace stage center with an urban Target and I'm happy. It's not a Frank Lloyd Wright...

Or even a two story McDonald's. I'm not a fan of SC.

[betts]

So what happens when this above phrase describes our new small tower?

Back in urban renewal's first wave practically nobody stood up for the Criterion. 40 years from now, we will probably regret replacing Johansen's masterpiece with a small tower.

I am parting with urbanists on this. I believe OKC deserves a little architectural panache, and what better way to do that than dust off what we already have. Anyone who thinks Stage Center was ever given a chance to shine or even be a part of OKC's urban fabric is wrong, and that's separate from the larger debate here.

As for the reaction to my post, I absolutely am viewing THIS small tower within the context of whether it would be better than a revitalized Stage Center, and i think others should view it within that context, also.

So far nothing to do with the development of this small tower has followed the pattern we'd expect with a quality, legitimate skyscraper. Instead of seeing anything tangible we've had big deadlines followed by multiple rounds of underwhelming news, delays, and a developer who isn't talking.

The phrase "world class" is bandied around OKC so much that it's actually more cause for alarm than anything else.

Count me in as agreeing 100% with Spartan here.

[sroberts24]

Everyone keeps saying how disappointing this tower is going to be and it's a "small tower." We know nothing right now so making blanket statements of how this building will effect the downtown community are totally irrelevant at this time. Give it time, I still think there is a good chance this will be OKC's 2nd tallest. All we know is it will be at least 20 stories. Developer says it will be in the neighborhood of 20 stories... What do we know from that? Nothing! 30 is not out of the realm of possibilities and with today's floor heights there is a good chance a 28-30 storie tower makes it taller than Cotter Ranch Tower. What I think is more important is the footprint which they have confirmed to be large.

I just want everybody to calm down the small tower and pessimistic talk and what till a design comes out.

[Praedura]

I'm not worried about the loss of Stage Center. A new 20 story office tower is a fantastically better use of the site than a defunct and unfixable old relic.

What bothers me is blowing a golden opportunity. You can put a 20 story tower almost anywhere in the metro. Ok, granted no one is proposing that, but it's not ridiculous in any event. And in any other part of the city, a 300-400 foot building would be the most amazing thing around. But NOT in the CBD. And not right next to the Devon Tower, which is the new iconic masterpiece of downtown.

OKC may be geographically gigantic, but the area where you put tall skyscrapers is but a few blocks in radius. That area around the Stage Center is precisely where you're going to construct the 500+ foot towers of our future. It's not that this is our only chance, but then again, skyscrapers in the CBD don't come along every day. There aren't scads of them being proposed. We want to make the downtown business core look like it should for a city on the rise.

And no, nobody will have to coax me off a ledge if it turns out that a 20 story building is all we're going to get. I'll still be happy for the most part. But dang it, why not put a 600 foot tower where a 600 foot tower belongs? Let's put in 350 foot buildings elsewhere (and Rainey Williams, you can construct as many of those as you like -- that would be great).

[Just the facts]

Negative ghostrider ^^^ Replace stage center with an urban Target and I'm happy. It's not a Frank Lloyd Wright...

What is a negative ghost rider?

That is a phrase from the movie Top Gun. It simply means - no.

To create a proper street enclosure anything around 80' to 100' tall at the sidewalk would be perfect.

[OKCisOK4me]

Thank you Kerry. I'm surprised that anyone would have to be schooled on such a thing...no bueno.

[Dubya61]

So what happens when this above phrase describes our new small tower?

If it has so much as one tenant that pays the rent, if the new construction admits so much as one worker every day, if this new building permits ANY street level interaction, it will be an improvement over a "closed down, non functional, dead to the world inside with no viable hope for recovery building." Further, if this minimal prosperity only lasts for 5 years, then that's 5 more years of prosperity than we will EVER get out of the once Mummer's Theater in this decade -- maybe this century.

Back in urban renewal's first wave practically nobody stood up for the Criterion. 40 years from now, we will probably regret replacing Johansen's masterpiece with a small tower.

I get you. We could certainly aspire to more. Further, what we will get will probably never be in a competition on skyscraper city (or wherever it was the Devon Energy Center was in competition this year). I get angry every time I drive past the Biltmore (M)otel on I-40. It's damned near criminal that a structure so uninteresting should be even allowed to use the Biltmore name. I'm sure there are many who participate on this forum that will be distressed (maybe not visibly) from the first post on THIS thread, but the reality of the situation is that, without kevin's white knight mega millions lotto winner with a penchant for stand-out architecture, the building died in 2010.

From an economic standpoint, the case for demolition is a strong one. Both performing arts centers have been shuttered for some time: the Mummers suffered damage from a flood in 2010, which forced the center to close its doors. Though emptied and no longer equipped with functional heating, ventilation, and cooling systems, the building reportedly still costs more than $100,000 a year to maintain. Situated directly across the street from Oklahoma’s tallest office building, the vacant Mummers Theater is sitting pretty on prime real estate for development.

Brutalizing Brutalism: Why John M. Johansen's Crumbling Concrete Theaters Should be Saved | BLOUIN ARTINFO
[emphasis added]

I am parting with urbanists on this. I believe OKC deserves a little architectural panache, and what better way to do that than dust off what we already have. Anyone who thinks Stage Center was ever given a chance to shine or even be a part of OKC's urban fabric is wrong, and that's separate from the larger debate here.

... and do what with it (what we already have)? What can you do with it? Who would do it? What can you do to make it at least stop costing money? Let's ignore the opportunity costs that we're losing / spending. Pretend you could put it some sort of cryo-stasis and it would no longer cost just to be there, then what? I agree that CBD real estate is not so rare that this architectural gem has to go today, but then what? Wait until CBD real estate IS rare enough?

As for the reaction to my post, I absolutely am viewing THIS small tower within the context of whether it would be better than a revitalized Stage Center, and i think others should view it within that context, also.

THIS small tower will never be better than a revitalized Stage Center, but then again THIS small tower will never be better than ...
.....SPOILER ALERT: If you believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, or Leprechauns, skip the next paragraph.....
will never be better than a relocated North Pole Headquarters for Santa Claus, a major American Operations Center for the Easter Bunny, or an anchor for the rainbows where leprechauns store their pots of gold. A revitalized Stage Center is just as fictitious.

So far nothing to do with the development of this small tower has followed the pattern we'd expect with a quality, legitimate skyscraper. Instead of seeing anything tangible we've had big deadlines followed by multiple rounds of underwhelming news, delays, and a developer who isn't talking.

The phrase "world class" is bandied around OKC so much that it's actually more cause for alarm than anything else.

Hear ya, feel your pain, love your dedication and passion. It's time to embrace the (maybe not so) suck that will at least be better than a rotting shell with no potential.

[Just the facts]

Thank you Kerry. I'm surprised that anyone would have to be schooled on such a thing...no bueno.

To be fair - Top Gun came out in 1986. That was 27 years ago. Around 40% of the US population is younger than that. You might as well sing "Road to Morocco" (note - the Under 25 crowd thinks Family Guy is all original material).

[hoya]

And people say that America isn't accepting of homosexuals.

[OKCisOK4me]

To be fair - Top Gun came out in 1986. That was 27 years ago. Around 40% of the US population is younger than that. You might as well sing "Road to Morocco" (note - the Under 25 crowd thinks Family Guy is all original material).

Damn it Kerry, you just made me realize 35 is OLD...no bueno.

In all sincerity though, the 80s decade is like one of the best. Look at the radtacular bodacious hang out spot going into The Rise. Top Gun is more of a novelty, primarily due to Tom Cruise before he turned into a religious whack than that silly black and white tidbit you posted above! lol

[lasomeday]

Steve mentioned in his chat on Friday that we are less than 60 days from hearing and seeing more on this site..... So maybe before Christmas....

[BDP]

But dang it, why not put a 600 foot tower where a 600 foot tower belongs? Let's put in 350 foot buildings elsewhere.

Maybe another 600+ foot tower doesn't belong in OKC, just like a one-of-a-kind community theater doesn't belong in OKC either.

[Spartan]

THIS small tower will never be better than a revitalized Stage Center, but then again THIS small tower will never be better than ...
.....SPOILER ALERT: If you believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, or Leprechauns, skip the next paragraph.....
will never be better than a relocated North Pole Headquarters for Santa Claus, a major American Operations Center for the Easter Bunny, or an anchor for the rainbows where leprechauns store their pots of gold. A revitalized Stage Center is just as fictitious.

That would be inaccurate, I think. I was talking about Oklahoma City to the head of a CDC here in Cleveland and showed him the Stage Center that we are tearing down. He saw the model of it in a New York museum.

The Children's Museum idea was one example of reuse produced by an RFP that community institutions were discouraged to consider.

There are a LOT of prime development sites. The best one we have, where this small tower should be going, is being taken up by a convention center, so talk about a useless building with no street interaction (as you wisely articulate below). This development pressure is what happens when we waste the best development sites with ill-conceived public facilities.

it will be an improvement over a "closed down, non functional, dead to the world inside with no viable hope for recovery building."

[Of Sound Mind]

There are a LOT of prime development sites. The best one we have, where this small tower should be going, is being taken up by a convention center, so talk about a useless building with no street interaction (as you wisely articulate below). This development pressure is what happens when we waste the best development sites with ill-conceived public facilities.

Are you referring to the existing Cox Convention Center or the site for the new convention center?

[Dubya61]

That would be inaccurate, I think. I was talking about Oklahoma City to the head of a CDC here in Cleveland and showed him the Stage Center that we are tearing down. He saw the model of it in a New York museum.

The Children's Museum idea was one example of reuse produced by an RFP that community institutions were discouraged to consider.

There are a LOT of prime development sites. The best one we have, where this small tower should be going, is being taken up by a convention center, so talk about a useless building with no street interaction (as you wisely articulate below). This development pressure is what happens when we waste the best development sites with ill-conceived public facilities.

I was unaware that anyone was discouraged from taking on the Stage Center. I'm not challenging your credibility. Just curious. How do you know this to be so?

[Spartan]

Are you referring to the existing Cox Convention Center or the site for the new convention center?

Both. The problem is that OKC hasn't changed its thinking since urban renewal.

[Praedura]

For what it's worth, today marks the end of the 90 day period since the initial announcement back in July.

Obviously, I'm not expecting anything to come out today. Just hoping we find out something before the end of the year.