OKC Mayor Race 2014

[Midtowner]

Hate it all you want, but without the Chamber folks, we wouldn't have lower employment than most of the rest of the country or even a decent tax base to draw from. You don't get pie in the sky public works projects unless you have great jobs available. Part of the reason Devon and CHK didn't go to Houston is because the city made it clear that they were wanted and welcome at the table when it came to improving this city.

[Urban Pioneer]

Shadid would only cause discord with our barons and the CofC junta.

As someone who works as a volunteer in the city oversight and advisory process, I can assure you that Shadid's "discord" is pretty much spread around on everybody.

Elect him Mayor, a you will have this city turn in on itself with division and acrimony.

[kevinpate]

aka OKC: Tulsa Edition



on edit: I like Tulsa as a nice palce to visit. Even lived there long long ago. But their local politics in recent times .... I wouldn't move there again on someone else's dime.

[betts]

No matter what you think about the Chamber, the "plutocrats", the mayor or anyone else you consider the establishment, anyone who thinks as a group these people have done anything but change OKC from a city with nothing to recommend it but cheap cost of living to a city on the rise either hasn't lived here long, is too young to remember what it was like 20 years ago, never goes south of 63rd St or is delusional. To assume that the renaissance will continue no matter what we do or who is leading us is delusional as well. We have had to work very hard to get this city where it is right now, but we can't quit because other cities with more to offer than us aren't quitting. We have to work twice as hard to make up for our lack of sea coast, mountains or balmy climate. That requires a spirit of cooperation, not an "us versus them" mentality.

[Bellaboo]

Shadid would only cause discord with our barons and the CofC junta.

He will cause discord among everyone, everything and all things living and dead. If you want another Tulsa like non productive, non progressive city, then vote for Ed........Something tells me you can't vote yet, right Edgar ?

Another thing, without a few barons around, we'd be just another wide spot in the road nowheresville.

[CaptDave]

Constantly railing against the "plutocrats" and OKC's homegrown corporations ignores the reality of the last 15 years. I strongly oppose predatory capitalism and letting corporations do anything they want, but Oklahoma City has found a pretty good balance between making it worthwhile for businesses to relocate or remain here, and making the city better for all its citizens. The city leadership, city staff, OKC Chamber, local businesses and citizen involvement have all worked together (and sometimes against each other, but usually finding a good solution to disagreements) to find a balance that has enabled OKC to go from being worthy only of flyover status to being envied by many American cities struggling with many of the same issues we did a couple decades ago.

Despite some personal disagreement with some statements made by the "plutocrats" from time to time, I think we are very fortunate to have several good corporate citizens in OKC that are interested in improving our city. The methods they have chosen to make these contribution by are not always purely philanthropic, but it is undeniable they are mutually beneficial arrangements for the city and the business. The transformation of downtown OKC from a deserted wasteland to its present day renaissance has been greatly assisted - and enabled - by the "chamber" and has benefited the entire city.

It is foolish to attempt a divide and conquer strategy just to gain a political advantage, especially if you kill the progress the city has made. If you effectively end the processes that have supported and facilitated the city's growth, how are you going to do things like improve bus service, add to the police force, repair streets, build sidewalks, etc? Are the northwest and northern areas of OKC any less a neighborhood than one's pet areas? Of course there are differences between areas of town, but the vast majority of OKC has benefited from the the investments made in our city since the first MAPS. Divisiveness of that nature is the last thing OKC needs. The choice is clear to me.....

[Laramie]

No matter what you think about the Chamber, the "plutocrats", the mayor or anyone else you consider the establishment, anyone who thinks as a group these people have done anything but change OKC from a city with nothing to recommend it but cheap cost of living to a city on the rise either hasn't lived here long, is too young to remember what it was like 20 years ago, never goes south of 63rd St or is delusional. To assume that the renaissance will continue no matter what we do or who is leading us is delusional as well. We have had to work very hard to get this city where it is right now, but we can't quit because other cities with more to offer than us aren't quitting. We have to work twice as hard to make up for our lack of sea coast, mountains or balmy climate. That requires a spirit of cooperation, not an "us versus them" mentality.

So true betts. which shows how our city has grown.

They moved the boundaries, the topography has changed. During my day, it was never buy or do any business south of the crosstown expressway; that was delusional. Will the boundaries move to 122nd street?

aka OKC: Tulsa Edition



on edit: I like Tulsa as a nice palce to visit. Even lived there long long ago. But their local politics in recent times .... I wouldn't move there again on someone else's dime.

Tulsa has changed. They don't want to be seen as copying anything like MAPS which brought about a change here in OKC. They built the BOK Center & the ONEOK Park with a sales tax. Oklahoma City has really benefited from MAPS because the private development following our momentum has really been the envy of a lot of cities.

[soonerguru]

Shadid would only cause discord with our barons and the CofC junta.

You don't know very much.

[CaptDave]

Mayoral candidate: MAPS 3 not delivering on sidewalk promises

Breaking news!! The city says it can only build 30 -40 miles of sidewalks instead of 75! City staff bungled the estimate of the cost for the sidewalk project badly, but this has been known for quite a while by everyone on the council. Of course it is a competency problem in Public Works. Calling Mayor Cornett dishonest or misleading on this is attempting to deceive voters because if he did state we would build 75 miles of sidewalks, he got that estimate from Public Works. Of course the mayor was going to use the information provided by Public Works. In our form of city government, the Mayor and City Council are basically part time and rely on the City Manager and staff for most of their information.

Place blame where it legitimately belongs, don't attempt to create a deception for personal political gain. Yes this is politics, but don't portray yourself as above getting dirty when this is typical of the tactics employed by the campaign thus far.

I found this interesting:

"We should deliver to the voters what was promised ----------------------in terms of 75 miles of sidewalks," Shadid said.

But not the streetcar project? Or the Convention Center? Daddy knows best evidently? I thought better of Dr Shadid, but disagree strongly on this. This kind of paternalistic approach is the opposite of what the city needs. Ed brings up important issues, but his method of resolving them is fatally flawed.

That almost sounds like his campaign promise when he was running for council. Do promises mean anything?

There were mistakes made in all the MAPS programs and I actually agree we should structure future MAPS referendums better. But everyone who bothered to vote on MAPS3 knew exactly what they were doing - we accepted some projects we didn't really care about to get the ones we wanted. That goes for kayakers, transit / streetcar supporters, senior citizens, park lovers, horse riders, rowers, and Chamber people.

Build ALL of MAPS3 as decided by the voters - this is non-negotiable Dr. Shadid.

[kevinpate]

...
Build ALL of MAPS3 as decided by the voters - this is non-negotiable Dr. Shadid.

Not a fan of the candidate, but wouldn't building ALL of M3 include the 35-40 miles of sidewalks which aren't being built, and all the senior fitness center to be built, and built as aquatic centers, for the central park to be an exciting, fully programmed park, sans saving a building like the Film Exchange building at SW5th area and whatever else seems to have been scooted off the table thus far?

I actually agree with the notion OKC should insist M3 be built as it was pitched. It's simply not happening though, but outside whatever threat to the streetcar (real or imagined), not so many folks seem to be very hot and bothered on the ways M3 is looking a bit like M3-0.36, or even noticing that most everything has been chopped in some not insignificant manner or folks are talking about chopping. Well, except for the alter and sanctuary of Our Lady of the Chamber. It still seems fairly protected thus far.

[Urban Pioneer]

well, except for the alter and sanctuary of our lady of the chamber. It still seems fairly protected thus far.

lol

[Urban Pioneer]

I find it funny that Ed is trying to somehow work Mayor Cornett over on this when obviously the bad planning has more to do with absence of a Planning Department at the political table. Pretty sure that it is the entire Council's responsibility to ensure that the City Manager includes Russell Claus in the planning of MAPS 3 and that his voice is heeded.... and the that the Chamber cheerleaders follow suit. But the bad pricing estimates on sidewalks??? That's definitely a Public Works blunder... not the Mayor's and not the Planning Department.

[CaptDave]

Not a fan of the candidate, but wouldn't building ALL of M3 include the 35-40 miles of sidewalks which aren't being built, and all the senior fitness center to be built, and built as aquatic centers, for the central park to be an exciting, fully programmed park, sans saving a building like the Film Exchange building at SW5th area and whatever else seems to have been scooted off the table thus far?

I actually agree with the notion OKC should insist M3 be built as it was pitched. It's simply not happening though, but outside whatever threat to the streetcar (real or imagined), not so many folks seem to be very hot and bothered on the ways M3 is looking a bit like M3-0.36, or even noticing that most everything has been chopped in some not insignificant manner or folks are talking about chopping. Well, except for the alter and sanctuary of Our Lady of the Chamber. It still seems fairly protected thus far.

These issues are the reason for my statement acknowledging it would be best to restructure how the next MAPS is presented and the projects packaged. The city staff failed badly on the sidewalks and Senior centers. These projects' problems could have been easily resolved by better planning.

Why weren't service providers identified for the senior centers before promising them? Has the city not considered sucking it up and operating them as part of the Parks and Rec department?

The sidewalk issue is probably easiest to resolve - shift funds from the contingency fund to make up the shortage. Since 75 miles were promised, and thus far only 40 or so have been funded, this sounds like a contingency need to me.

If the Central Park consultant plans to build a building to house park operations, it is foolish to not use the existing Film Exchange building for that purpose. That building is large enough to accommodate park operations and one or two other functions. Adapt a pretty good plan and improve it.

These are the issues I wish Dr Shadid had chosen to focus on - provide solutions instead of accusations. He probably would have done a good job helping fix MAPS3 and therefore would be in a much better position to demand changes in the next MAPS. Unfortunately he has chosen to wage a divisive campaign based on very questionable statements and accusations.

[bradh]

Anyone drilled down on why the cost estimates were off, or even discussed it (other than just assuming the city goofed).

Construction costs since the planning stages of MAPS 3 have gone way up. We're comparing now (where oil & gas is booming damn near state wide, good help is extremely hard to find in all trades since unskilled laborers can make much more in the oil patch, and more contractors have work) to 2008 and 2009, which, well, I should have to explain those times to you.

Just a thought.

[bradh]

If the Central Park consultant plans to build a building to house park operations, it is foolish to not use the existing Film Exchange building for that purpose. That building is large enough to accommodate park operations and one or two other functions. Adapt a pretty good plan and improve it.

Maybe a little off topic, but wasn't part of Union Station intended to be for this purpose?

[CaptDave]

Anyone drilled down on why the cost estimates were off, or even discussed it (other than just assuming the city goofed).

Construction costs since the planning stages of MAPS 3 have gone way up. We're comparing now (where oil & gas is booming damn near state wide, good help is extremely hard to find in all trades since unskilled laborers can make much more in the oil patch, and more contractors have work) to 2008 and 2009, which, well, I should have to explain those times to you.

Just a thought.

Regarding the sidewalks, I recall city staff admitting they messed up and estimated the cost based on 4 foot wide sidewalks even though the standard is now 5ft minimum.

[soonerguru]

Anyone drilled down on why the cost estimates were off, or even discussed it (other than just assuming the city goofed).

Construction costs since the planning stages of MAPS 3 have gone way up. We're comparing now (where oil & gas is booming damn near state wide, good help is extremely hard to find in all trades since unskilled laborers can make much more in the oil patch, and more contractors have work) to 2008 and 2009, which, well, I should have to explain those times to you.

Just a thought.

That's actually not a good excuse. Construction costs ALWAYS go up and we were in quite a recession. When projecting, one must assume cost of materials will rise -- and particularly when you're estimating during a recession.

If my memory is correct the sidewalk estimates were based on sidewalk widths that don't meet today's standards, and so they had to lop miles off the project to make up for wider sidewalks. This is still a pretty big goof by city staff.

[bradh]

Thanks for clarifying, I did not know that.

sooner you always think I'm making excuses

[CaptDave]

Maybe a little off topic, but wasn't part of Union Station intended to be for this purpose?

I've heard several ideas for Union Station. Art studios, a flower market, etc but nothing more specific than that. Maybe others have heard otherwise though.

I think the Film Exchange building could house public restrooms for the Great Lawn area, maybe a small snack bar, and it appears it could house maintenance equipment.

[Urban Pioneer]

It also had to do with the reconstruction of driveway ramps and such to meet ADA compliance. The cost estimates weren't based on engineered design solutions for specific streets and their related unique neighborhood centric requirements.

[CaptDave]

It also had to do with the reconstruction of driveway ramps and such to meet ADA compliance. The cost estimates weren't based on engineered design solutions for specific streets and their related unique neighborhood centric requirements.

That makes sense. I recall that now. That does explain a good chunk of the shortcoming. Maybe it would have been better to simply state we would spend X$ on sidewalks rather than giving a mileage figure. Good to know for future reference.

I'd like to see the sidewalk ordinance changed to require 10 foot wide sidewalks on BOTH sides of main arterials like Penn and some other revisions. But that is another thread.....

[catch22]

That makes sense. I recall that now. That does explain a good chunk of the shortcoming. Maybe it would have been better to simply state we would spend X$ on sidewalks rather than giving a mileage figure. Good to know for future reference.

I'd like to see the sidewalk ordinance changed to require 10 foot wide sidewalks on BOTH sides of main arterials like Penn and some other revisions. But that is another thread.....

Unfortunately with our sprawl, Penn (just in city limits) is 380 or so blocks long. Or 38 miles. The distance from the airport to Chickisha.

That's also for another thread.

[CaptDave]

Glad you added your perspective Sid. I was not impressed by the Fox25 story at all.

[warreng88]

Yeah, I was on the subcommittee when that bad news came out. The reasons were pretty simple and probably could have been avoided it planning was actually involved intimately in the process (I'm speaking for myself now).

Reasons:

1) 4' sidewalks vs 6' (on average since most of the sidewalks would be curb aligned)

2) The rate quoted was the same per sq. ft rate quoted to developers who are given the option to pay instead of installing sidewalks. A number used for a long time and obviously needed adjustment.

3) The segments were prioritized based on criteria that put the MAPS 3 sidewalks more frequently in places that are just more expensive. Lots of curb cuts, and more challenging ROW fixes. In short, when we sorted the list of segments, we were essentially starting with the most important and sometimes the most difficult.

4) When the initial 70 miles was estimated (Not sure why Ed is saying 75, I recall 70), it wasn't factoring contingency portions. Additional miles are very possible at the end of the MAPS process. One of the reasons that it was broken up into phases and one of the reasons that the money was spent to do such a comprehensive assessment of possible segments. We now have a huge "to do list" we can follow going forward if any future funding is allocated for sidewalks already prioritized.

My question on #1 would be, what would the difference in cost of product and labor be between 100' of 4' wide sidwalks and 100' of 6' wide sidewalks. On #3, my question would be what is the average cost for the curb cut outs and a few examples of increased cost on ROW fixes. That kind of information I would think would be helpful in explaining to the general public where the discrepancy is.

[bradh]

Great info Sid, thanks for sharing