OG&E Tower

[catcherinthewry]

This is about an architectural movement

Not every architectural movement deserves to be preserved. Gould, Gittinger and Kaufman Halls at OU were examples of a movement, but there was no outcry when their exteriors were renovated to Cherokee Gothic because they were examples of a bad movement and were replaced by something better.

SC is an example of a bad movement (that's why there are so few examples of it), and if it is replaced by something better I will welcome the replacement.

[Spartan]

I honestly think this project was not ready to be announced. But with the sale of such a controversial piece of property, and it being public information, it could not be kept a secret any longer. Rainey Williams had to say something to let the public know, and probably somewhat pressured in making comments on the plans. With the announcement being so vague, a lot is still up in the air, I would rather have waited another 90 days for more solid information. It's easy to take shots at the developer without seeing finished plans, so let's give Mr. Williams the benefit of the doubt and see what he comes up with before we are so quick to write off his development.

I agree that we haven't yet seen any solid, concrete plans for this site. Knowing that, I think we should be giving Stage Center the benefit of the doubt, and not just Mr. Williams.

And I'm sorry, but I don't know who this is. This is the first almost all of us have ever heard of Rainey Williams. When Steve Lackmeyer says, "For those of you questioning Rainey Williams, well you don't know Rainey Williams," I want to be believe. But he's right, I don't know who this is, and I think that's telling of someone's ability to pull off a major development.

The only way I believe this is achievable is if it is tied to a corporate master tenant that will enhance the building standard. It's not that I don't believe a spec development wouldn't work, I just don't think that the Stage Center is where that should be developed.

[G.Walker]

I agree that we haven't yet seen any solid, concrete plans for this site. Knowing that, I think we should be giving Stage Center the benefit of the doubt, and not just Mr. Williams.

And I'm sorry, but I don't know who this is. This is the first almost all of us have ever heard of Rainey Williams. When Steve Lackmeyer says, "For those of you questioning Rainey Williams, well you don't know Rainey Williams," I want to be believe. But he's right, I don't know who this is, and I think that's telling of someone's ability to pull off a major development.

The only way I believe this is achievable is if it is tied to a corporate master tenant that will enhance the building standard. It's not that I don't believe a spec development wouldn't work, I just don't think that the Stage Center is where that should be developed.

OG&E considering space in new downtown tower | The Journal Record

[catch22]

Journal Record's Molly Fleming just proves info off of OKCTalk...

[Spartan]

OG&E considering space in new downtown tower | The Journal Record

OK? I'll be following the headlines just as closely to see if a master tenant magically appears as we suspect will happen.

[Bellaboo]

I honestly think this project was not ready to be announced. But with the sale of such a controversial piece of property, and it being public information, it could not be kept a secret any longer. Rainey Williams had to say something to let the public know, and probably somewhat pressured in making comments on the plans. With the announcement being so vague, a lot is still up in the air, I would rather have waited another 90 days for more solid information. It's easy to take shots at the developer without seeing finished plans, so let's give Mr. Williams the benefit of the doubt and see what he comes up with before we are so quick to write off his development.

+ 1 to this ^ , also, a national Chamber convention was in town, and I believe the local politico wanted to show off a little momentum to the conference.

[UnFrSaKn]

Another JR link that I will have to use my imagination based on the first sentence of the article.

[bchris02]

I was thinking...shouldn't it be a good sign that the majority of OKCitians seem to be against the demolishion of the Stage Center at this point? Wouldn't it be more alarming if a tower like the Valliance Bank Tower was announced and people were gung ho and excited about destroying a unique landmark for it? Most of us here on OKCTalk were expecting a huge, game changing, skyline changing announcement. Now that it appears to be turning out differently, even civic boosters here are turning against it. Anybody think this may signal the end of the "development at any cost" attitude, the attitude that gave us Lower Bricktown and Belle Isle and the Pei Plan, that has pervaded this city for so long? Could this be the beginning of an era where OKCitians are finally starting to demand better?

[kevinpate]

I was thinking...shouldn't it be a good sign that the majority of OKCitians seem to be against the demolishion of the Stage Center at this point? Wouldn't it be more alarming if a tower like the Valliance Bank Tower was announced and people were gung ho and excited about destroying a unique landmark for it? Most of us here on OKCTalk were expecting a huge, game changing, skyline changing announcement. Now that it appears to be turning out differently, even civic boosters here are turning against it. Anybody think this may signal the end of the "development at any cost" attitude, the attitude that gave us Lower Bricktown and Belle Isle and the Pei Plan, that has pervaded this city for so long? Could this be the beginning of an era where OKCitians are finally starting to demand better?

With respect, I think you vastly overestimate the concern of SC going away. I'd be more inclined to believe the majority of OKC folk scarcely even think of SC, if at all, except when it appears on the telly news or in print. Of those, it's probably 60/40 who are unaware it's a facility that's been closed and remained closed for about 3 years, and was at best mildly successful as a venue prior to the doors being locked to the public.

[Spartan]

I was thinking...shouldn't it be a good sign that the majority of OKCitians seem to be against the demolishion of the Stage Center at this point? Wouldn't it be more alarming if a tower like the Valliance Bank Tower was announced and people were gung ho and excited about destroying a unique landmark for it? Most of us here on OKCTalk were expecting a huge, game changing, skyline changing announcement. Now that it appears to be turning out differently, even civic boosters here are turning against it. Anybody think this may signal the end of the "development at any cost" attitude, the attitude that gave us Lower Bricktown and Belle Isle and the Pei Plan, that has pervaded this city for so long? Could this be the beginning of an era where OKCitians are finally starting to demand better?

The go-to plan for getting something done for 50 years was proposing it right before a bust, then building a lesser version, then failing to improve much. There has never been any way to hold developers to the plans they originally propose. The Brewers frequently snook demo permits through City Hall back in the 2000s.

Belle Isle was supposed to be a lifestyle center. Lower Bricktown was supposed to be a lifestyle center, University North Park in Norman, and so on.

[PhiAlpha]

I was thinking...shouldn't it be a good sign that the majority of OKCitians seem to be against the demolishion of the Stage Center at this point? Wouldn't it be more alarming if a tower like the Valliance Bank Tower was announced and people were gung ho and excited about destroying a unique landmark for it? Most of us here on OKCTalk were expecting a huge, game changing, skyline changing announcement. Now that it appears to be turning out differently, even civic boosters here are turning against it. Anybody think this may signal the end of the "development at any cost" attitude, the attitude that gave us Lower Bricktown and Belle Isle and the Pei Plan, that has pervaded this city for so long? Could this be the beginning of an era where OKCitians are finally starting to demand better?

First off, the "majority" of OKC is not against tearing it down for a solid new development. You're seeing a vocal minority speak out right now, nothing more. You're not hearing the voices people who either would be fine tearing it down or don't care one way or the other. People are much more likely to speak out if they are against something like this. It's just like the response you see for people against frac'ing, offshore drilling, or the keystone pipeline. Which side do you see more grass roots support for, those opposed or proponents of it? Generally the opposition is much more vocal, but every poll conducted shows that 70 to 90% (or something like that) are for all of those.

Second, I think we saw from the springhill suites protests or the 600 sheridan objections that people here are starting to turn that corner.

[bchris02]

The go-to plan for getting something done for 50 years was proposing it right before a bust, then building a lesser version, then failing to improve much. There has never been any way to hold developers to the plans they originally propose. The Brewers frequently snook demo permits through City Hall back in the 2000s.

Belle Isle was supposed to be a lifestyle center. Lower Bricktown was supposed to be a lifestyle center, University North Park in Norman, and so on.

You make some good points. It seems like the most exciting stuff does get proposed right before a bust. There was so much proposed for the Memorial corridor before the 2008 recession that would likely have ended OKC's retail woes. I wish the Shoppes at Quail Springs would have actually been built - that would have been on the level of Utica if not above it.

Here is what was originally proposed for Belle Isle.



Here is what we got...



A lot of people's concern is that an elaborate tower will be proposed, the Stage Center will be demolished, and then the project will be scaled back to only a shell of what was originally proposed. I know that worries me some. Heck, if Belle Isle is any indication, it could end up as a one-story Walgreens or CVS before all is said and done.

[G.Walker]

Fact is, we all need to reserve judgment until we see what Mr. Williams has planned.

[adaniel]

First off, the "majority" of OKC is not against tearing it down for a solid new development. You're seeing a vocal minority speak out right now, nothing more. You're not hearing the voices people who either would be fine tearing it down or don't care one way or the other. People are much more likely to speak out if they are against something like this. It's just like the response you see for people against frac'ing, offshore drilling, or the keystone pipeline. Which side do you see more grass roots support for, those opposed or proponents of it? Generally the opposition is much more vocal, but every poll conducted shows that 70 to 90% (or something like that) are for all of those.

Second, I think we saw from the springhill suites protests or the 600 sheridan objections that people here are starting to turn that corner.

I have to wonder, we have been talking about a major development going on the Stage Center site for at least a year now. Where were these people who oppose this then? Frankly, the Stage Center's fate is likely sealed since the OKCCF has already sold the land. Any efforts to save the SC should have happened a long time ago.

I agree, this is just a minority, and will stay that way unless Williams cranks something out truly hideous in the next 90 days.

[s00nr1]

A lot of people's concern is that an elaborate tower will be proposed, the Stage Center will be demolished, and then the project will be scaled back to only a shell of what was originally proposed. I know that worries me some. Heck, if Belle Isle is any indication, it could end up as a one-story Walgreens or CVS before all is said and done.

Irony is a CVS or Walgreen's downtown would be AWESOME.

[catch22]

I'm no architect or engineer.

Is it possible to build a building around the stage center?

The inside curved area could be an all glass mezzaine retail/lobby area looking into the stage center area.

The NE corner would front the street while the west and southwest is held up by supports and essentially hovering over the stage center.






Just an idea...drank too much caffeine tonight

[bchris02]

^^^ Good idea, catch22. I was actually thinking about that possibility. Not sure how feasible it would be though.

[Rover]

Nothing is impossible for those who don't have to pay for it.

[Mel]

Just in case the Wife and I are going to do a crawl in that area and snap some pix just in case. I wish I had been more of a picture taker when I was younger and in the blink of an eye things and people can be gone. Digital photography make sit so much cheaper.

[catch22]

Nothing is impossible for those who don't have to pay for it.

Rover what exactly is your problem?

Are we not allowed to post ideas anymore? I must have missed that memo. Get over yourself.

[architect5311]

As for a spec tower (as in market speculation), that would be a real estate development that instead of being built for a client or by the owner (like Devon Tower), this is being built by a developer who will solicit several different tenants. Rainey Williams will be involved in the Enogex-Centerpoint MLP formation in determining whether OKC or Houston will win the HQ, but in the event it goes to Houston, Williams will still build a spec tower to avoid the specter of public rejection for OKC. It's a smart plan for the ED play, but I don't think anybody wants to see the spec tower we'd get if the deal falls through..[/QUOTE]

Why would Centerpoint HQ want to leave this building?

[DowntownMan]

^^^ Good idea, catch22. I was actually thinking about that possibility. Not sure how feasible it would be though.

No way you could attempt something like this... You do remember how far down Devon had to pier their supports for their building right?

When this site gets cleared they will dig down about 20 feet and pier their support for the new tower.

[jn1780]

I'm no architect or engineer.

Is it possible to build a building around the stage center?

The inside curved area could be an all glass mezzaine retail/lobby area looking into the stage center area.

The NE corner would front the street while the west and southwest is held up by supports and essentially hovering over the stage center.

Just an idea...drank too much caffeine tonight

It would take a lot more columns than than and you can't just have big long vertical columns without horizontal or diagonal bracing.
Edit: Also, building needs a core. I facepalmed myself for leaving that out my original post. lol

[UnFrSaKn]

Who Will Seek a Sales Tax to Save Stage Center? | News OK

[catch22]

It would take a lot more columns than than and you can't just have big long vertical columns without horizontal or diagonal bracing.
Edit: Also, building needs a core. I facepalmed myself for leaving that out my original post. lol

Thank you for the insight. I wish/hope there is a creative solution that could be had to preserve the stage center while also getting the tower development. Sounds like that may not be the case. Unfortunately. And that fight is water under the bridge now anyway.