OG&E Tower

[OKCSteel]

People who want Stage Center to stay need to get over it. There was only one taker to keep it and the plan for a Children's museum was going to cost almost $30 million and then continue to need subsidized to the tune of $100,000 a month. It was a losing option no matter how you look at it.

So, Stage Center will be torn down and the City will move on, as it should.

[catcherinthewry]

In this case I don't yet think we are ready to entertain tearing the Stage Center down.

Who is the WE you are referring to, or are just using the royal we?

[Just the facts]

Before anyone panics that it isn't tall enough:

RSA Battle House Tower - Mobile, AL
35 floors (25 office floors, 3 lobby floors, 4 hotel floors, and 1 service floor)
Height 745 feet includes 202' spire

[CuatrodeMayo]

Terrible street interaction. I expect better, JTF.

[Just the facts]

Terrible street interaction. I expect better, JTF.

No doubt, which I why I posted a picture of the entire buidling and not just the top. For street interaction it is among the worst I have ever seen (go to Google StreetView and check it out). You should see how it conects to the convention center. I only posted it for those who only seem to care about height. It has a 200' spire on top.

[G.Walker]

If we can just nail down the architect we would instantly know what quality this office tower. Meaning if the architect was Pickard Chilton or Cesar Pelli, we would know it will be "world class", but if it was somebody local like Miller Associates or ADG, then we might be in trouble, lol.

[bchris02]

Hell, I'm sure Charlotte was getting a new 20 story announced once a month or more lol

Charlotte had their building boom in the 2000s but today it has come nearly to a halt. I doubt they get any new towers any time soon with their local economy the way it is. I am not sure what you meant by this comment.

[Pete]

I heard that one possible reason One North Hudson (Hotel Black) is being emptied is to house the construction workers while they are working on the new tower. Just rumors.

The building was much more full when the Devon contractors were in there than is is now.


Also, sorry for not being able to update the article but I am traveling with limited wi-fi access and time. I'll get back in the swing tomorrow and will follow up with my sources to see if this can be sorted out a bit more.

Lots and lots of moving parts but only there is so much interest in downtown development by developers and companies.

[hoya]

If we can just nail down the architect we would instantly know what quality this office tower. Meaning if the architect was Pickard Chilton or Cesar Pelli, we would know it will be "world class", but if it was somebody local like Miller Associates or ADG, then we might be in trouble, lol.

Leroy's Bricklaying and Tile, I think.

[Praedura]

If we can just nail down the architect we would instantly know what quality this office tower. Meaning if the architect was Pickard Chilton or Cesar Pelli, we would know it will be "world class", but if it was somebody local like Miller Associates or ADG, then we might be in trouble, lol.

Agreed. And this is a piece of information that could be "leaked" without revealing any other specifics on the height, floor count, tenants, etc.

I am curious, though -- does it have to be a famous out-of-town architectural firm for the building to be world class? Certainly I will be thrilled if I find out that Pickard Chilton or someone else of their reputation is designing the tower. But is there no local architectural firm that would be capable of creating a truly first rate building design? I'm not trying to be cute or sarcastic... I really don't know.

[G.Walker]

Agreed. And this is a piece of information that could be "leaked" without revealing any other specifics on the height, floor count, tenants, etc.

I am curious, though -- does it have to be a famous out-of-town architectural firm for the building to be world class? Certainly I will be thrilled if I find out that Pickard Chilton or someone else of their reputation is designing the tower. But is there no local architectural firm that would be capable of creating a truly first rate building design? I'm not trying to be cute or sarcastic... I really don't know.

The only local architect I think that would do a good job on this, if it had to be a local, I would say Rand Elliot. The new office buildings his firm designed for the Chesapeake campus are pretty sleek and modern.

http://www.e-a-a.com/

[milkmandude]

Before anyone panics that it isn't tall enough:

RSA Battle House Tower - Mobile, AL
35 floors (25 office floors, 3 lobby floors, 4 hotel floors, and 1 service floor)
Height 745 feet includes 202' spire

Thank you. Story count doesn't include the crowns/spires of some. It doesn't have to be a supertall to be iconic. Frost Bank in Austin or a mini BOA Tower in Charlotte type top is greatly needed (IMO) in DTOKC. What if they compromised with the demo of SC and hired an architect that maybe could incorporate some of it's elements or Frank Lloyd Wright's style into a tower? I'm hopeful we would end up with a really cool, iconic, unique tower (like Frost) easily seen by anyone passing by on 40, going to Thunder games or spending time at Myriad/C2S Park.

[betts]

Yes, it's not the size of the tower that is as much of a concern, it's all about architecture. The Stage Center is all about the architecture too. That's why some of us love it so much and don't want to see it replaced by the mundane. The question is: Will a developer in OKC who's not built any other large buildings (as far as I know) have the vision and be willing to spend the money on a world-class architect and world class materials for a tower built on speculation? If the answer is yes, then like before, I might at least understand why people would be willing to demolish the most decorated piece of architecture in the city. If we're going to get a square beige or glass building the only significance of which is the fact that it's taller than the Stage Center, then I would question why it couldn't be built elsewhere. I know Tom Ward has a piece of land on Broadway.

[G.Walker]

Yes, its all about the quality of the development not necessarily the height. There are some really nicely designed 20 story towers. Below is an example of a new 20 story office tower planned for Houston:

[Praedura]

In Steve's article, Williams says:

“I've been in this community my entire life, and we've seen where out-of-state owners didn't work out as well.
We're going to build a high-rise that will be world class in every way.”

Let's hope that he is true to his word.

[G.Walker]

I would be happy with something like this to replace Stage Center, both 20 stories:

[kevinpate]

Yes, several folk have alternative bits of land. I hope something goes on all of them in the coming years. However, SC has sat all but abandoned since 2010, and recently dealt with yet another flood issue that likely received little work to truly abate.

It is an interesting shaped, very remarkable, structure. It is also a dead structure, with no one, notwithstanding what appeared to be a sincere effort a short time back, willing to bring it back to a usable status.

I wish it was otherwise, but it just isn't.

[Praedura]

Nice rendering, G. Walker. Yeah, that's a pretty slick tower.

I seriously doubt, though, that we're actually getting only a 20 story tower. I think what's finally built will be much taller than that. (*cross fingers*)

[G.Walker]

If we end up getting a 20 story tower, that is nicely designed like the examples above, that would be great. If I had to make an educated guess, I think it will end up being 25-30 stories high, I doubt we will see it taller than that. Devon Tower set the bar really high, and we can't expect every office tower we get to be on that same level, Devon Tower is a once in generation iconic tower.

[BDP]

Even though the both have an unusual exterior, Stage Center center will be difficult to transition to anything but a theater, even that is prohibitively expensive and apparently it was not very flexible as a theater either.

I went to a few art showings there and it was a very cool venue for it and I have never seen a theater used in such creative ways. It was different, for sure, but it was way more flexible that say Freede Little Theater, which only offers a traditional stage set up, one that is available in just about every high school auditorium in existence. There are a lot of cities of Oklahoma City's size that don't have any theater options that Stage Center offered. It was very unique in that way and part of the reason it was celebrated, but also probably part of the reason it didn't last in a city like Oklahoma City.

You often hear people question why Oklahoma City can not offer the arts and culture that ever smaller peer cities have. Well, there are several examples of why in this very thread. Oklahoma City, in general, has a very narrow definition of what constitutes art or creativity, and it does not have a big enough constituency that value out of the ordinary works or aesthetically challenging art and design for it to exist here. The result is that anything that does not manage some sort of mass appeal struggles, disappears completely, or simply never shows up. The irony is that the local art community is full of talent and puts on tons of great events, but few people of the non-artist general public (i.e. would be art "consumers") take notice. In the end, this is why Stage Center is a multi-million dollar problem now. This is why Oklahoma City struggles to match other peer communities in terms of art venues and performance facilities and continues to go backwards, not forwards, in that capacity. In general, enough people just don't care about them. It seems Stage Center was a reach for OKC from the beginning.

I'm not trying to be critical, I'm just pointing it out. Really, in general, this is a community that champions the latest chain restaurant pad site development on Memorial or Broadway, yet can never seem to muster up enough enthusiasm for its unique developments for them to survive. Simply put, Stage Center wasn't enough like something else, found somewhere else, for it to be accepted here. A city's developments and structures simply reflect the values and way of life of its community and they do so objectively. The disintegration of Stage Center and its impending demolition to make way for something that makes Oklahoma City look and feel like something more familiar is simply a reflection the broader community's disinterest in fostering a uniquely Oklahoma City experience. Most people measure this city's relative worth based on what we have or get that others have, not based on what we have that no one else has.

All that said, OKC is probably at a point where it has more pride in itself and has more people interested in developing a less homogenous way of life for the city. But, for the most part, these people still don't have enough resources or access to make singular "angelic" saves like the one Stage Center requires. They can only make slow collective efforts like you see Better Block doing, which has helped foster some of the most interesting developmental turnarounds in the city and is actually helping create things that feel like Oklahoma City experiences as opposed to imported concepts.

Obviously, Oklahoma City does not need this lot to have a new 20-40 story tower, whether iconic or not. That's instantly apparent to anyone who takes a 2 minute drive around downtown. It is just the one preferred by this developer. A developer who is familiar enough with the market's general attitude towards unique development and the arts, that he knows any resistance to his project will be mostly ceremonial. And, in the end, I don't think I would blame Williams for not going out on a limb to build an "iconic" spec tower. Usually, such an effort requires some level of unique and creative design. In this market, that can introduce unnecessary risk, which is not exactly the best coarse of action for a spec development (if that's what this actually turns out to be).

[soonerguru]

I went to a few art showings there and it was a very cool venue for it and I have never seen a theater used in such creative ways. It was different, for sure, but it was way more flexible that say Freede Little Theater, which only offers a traditional stage set up, one that is available in just about every high school auditorium in existence. There are a lot of cities of Oklahoma City's size that don't have any theater options that Stage Center offered. It was very unique in that way and part of the reason it was celebrated, but also probably part of the reason it didn't last in a city like Oklahoma City.

You often hear people question why Oklahoma City can not offer the arts and culture that ever smaller peer cities have. Well, there are several examples of why in this very thread. Oklahoma City, in general, has a very narrow definition of what constitutes art or creativity, and it does not have a big enough constituency that value out of the ordinary works or aesthetically challenging art and design for it to exist here. The result is that anything that does not manage some sort of mass appeal struggles, disappears completely, or simply never shows up. The irony is that the local art community is full of talent and puts on tons of great events, but few people of the non-artist general public (i.e. would be art "consumers") take notice. In the end, this is why Stage Center is a multi-million dollar problem now. This is why Oklahoma City struggles to match other peer communities in terms of art venues and performance facilities and continues to go backwards, not forwards, in that capacity. In general, enough people just don't care about them. It seems Stage Center was a reach for OKC from the beginning.

I'm not trying to be critical, I'm just pointing it out. Really, in general, this is a community that champions the latest chain restaurant pad site development on Memorial or Broadway, yet can never seem to muster up enough enthusiasm for its unique developments for them to survive. Simply put, Stage Center wasn't enough like something else, found somewhere else, for it to be accepted here. A city's developments and structures simply reflect the values and way of life of its community and they do so objectively. The disintegration of Stage Center and its impending demolition to make way for something that makes Oklahoma City look and feel like something more familiar is simply a reflection the broader community's disinterest in fostering a uniquely Oklahoma City experience. Most people measure this city's relative worth based on what we have or get that others have, not based on what we have that no one else has.

All that said, OKC is probably at a point where it has more pride in itself and has more people interested in developing a less homogenous way of life for the city. But, for the most part, these people still don't have enough resources or access to make singular "angelic" saves like the one Stage Center requires. They can only make slow collective efforts like you see Better Block doing, which has helped foster some of the most interesting developmental turnarounds in the city and is actually helping create things that feel like Oklahoma City experiences as opposed to imported concepts.

Obviously, Oklahoma City does not need this lot to have a new 20-40 story tower, whether iconic or not. That's instantly apparent to anyone who takes a 2 minute drive around downtown. It is just the one preferred by this developer. A developer who is familiar enough with the market's general attitude towards unique development and the arts, that he knows any resistance to his project will be mostly ceremonial. And, in the end, I don't think I would blame Williams for not going out on a limb to build an "iconic" spec tower. Usually, such an effort requires some level of unique and creative design. In this market, that can introduce unnecessary risk, which is not exactly the best coarse of action for a spec development (if that's what this actually turns out to be).

Outstanding piece of writing. Kudos.

[betts]

I would be happy with something like this to replace Stage Center, both 20 stories:

To me, that's just a glass box. Meh. But I just spent the last week in Chicago and that kind of how I feel about everything here right now.

[betts]

Outstanding piece of writing. Kudos.

It's sad that the subject of that excellent post was about mediocrity.

[Jake]

I'll wait until there is more concrete information about this whole situation before I form an opinion. I'm still in a wait and see mode.

[Urbanized]

Yep, BDP nailed it. Sad commentary.