OKC's Image Issue

[ou48A]

I'll say it again; I was born and raised in Oklahoma but still don't understand the OKC vs. Tulsa slap fight.

That being said; an article from a Tulsa magazine that paints OKC in a bad light and Tulsa in a good light isn't all that surprising. Also notice that she says she was without a car while in OKC.

I don't get it either.

I grew up in a town and in a time when we received all 3 network TV stations from Tulsa and the 3 from OKC.... The Tulsa TV people would always take their shots at OKC and at the rest of the state. I never heard this from OKC about the Tulsa area. To me is was just like the little brother syndrome and a insecurity.

Even today it's not uncommon to hear people from the Tulsa area say that they are from god's country like they are some how better than everyone else.
Even as a young kid it's always been a big turn off for me. Those attitudes make it more difficult to make the state a better place.

[Jim Kyle]

Even today it's not uncommon to hear people from the Tulsa area say that they are from god's country like they are some how better than everyone else.

Well, they did have Oral Roberts, after all. With any luck, they might have had Jimmy Swaggart as well! That does lenf a little credibility to their claims...

[CaptDave]

I think Tulsans are still smarting from being made fun of in "Friends" when Chandler was transferred from NYC.

[bchris02]

^^^ From the perspective of people outside Oklahoma, OKC and Tulsa are more similar than different and the negative stereotype that is ingrained in the nation's conscience about OKC also applies to Tulsa. I remember not too long ago when that dentist in Tulsa who adhere to cleanliness standards and infected people with major diseases was national news, the CNN comments were filled with remarks like "They have dentists in Tulsa? I thought you had to have teeth to need a dentist." There were also many very insulting comments when it was reported Tulsa was bidding for the Olympics, not too different from when it was announced the Thunder was moving to OKC.

[CaptDave]

Indeed, but on the other hand if it keeps too many people coming herre and messing up the good deal we have...... (I am one of those transplants who never intended to stay, but here I am.) It has been said OKC is one of the best kept secrets in the US despite all the positive press. It isn't Chicago, Seattle, or wherever - but there is something about this place that latches on if you give it a chance and realize just how good life can be here.

[bchris02]

Boring, redneck, uneducated, backwards, right wing, terrible for young singles, etc, etc are what a majority of Americans outside Oklahoma think about OKC. While a case can be made that perception is changing with recent positive press, it still seems to be very pervasive. Just look at the comments on any national article that casts OKC in a positive light and see what I mean. This thread thus far has discussed what OKC needs to do to move beyond that image, but I am wondering how it got that image in the first place? Was it the 1980s oil bust? The Pei Plan? Is it because Tulsa civic boosters paint OKC in that manner so they can boost Tulsa? I did a search and found a NewsOK article from back in 1985 discussing this very issue and how the mayor at the time was initiating a campaign to promote a more positive image of OKC. Can any local history buffs answer how and why OKC ended up with the stereotype?

[bradh]

that's something I'd be interested in bchris

[Jim Kyle]

I think it goes all the way back to 1907 at least. Initially, the entire state was tagged with that stereotype. The lawlessness and roughness of the early oil boom days in the 20s, bolstered it, as did the antics of Gov. Alfalfa Bill Murray who called out the national guard to block a toll bridge coming from Texas, and who after leaving office held court from his room at the Hotel Bristol, NW 2 and Broadway, chewing tobacco and ranting at anyone who would listen. Our clinging to prohibition until May of 1959 didn't help any, and neither did the dust bowl days and "Grapes of Wrath."

Tulsa managed to work its way clear of the stereotyping in the mid-30s to become known as the "oil capitol of the world" (despite Bartlesville and Ponca City both having almost equal claims to that title) but OKC didn't seem to actually be interested in doing anything about it. You younger folk might be amazed to know that Oklahoma's politics were heavily socialist in earlier days, then morphed into becoming yellow-dog-Democrat to such an extent that most of us registered D simply to have a vote, since few if any Republicans bothered to run for office so the Democrat primary settled most elections.

Not until the election of Dewey Bartlett, the first Republican governor of the state, did the state as a whole initiate any concerted effort to improve its image. He established the "Oklahoma is OK!" slogan, and gave out honorary Okie pins to celebrities much as Kentucky award Colonel commissions.

Much of the current perception of OKC stems from a reality that's still at least partially true. During the middle third of the 20th century there was almost no regular live music venue here. Those of us who hungered for live music had to settle for western swing as the standard, although big bands did visit on tour. I had the pleasure of hearing Stan Kenton twice in the 50s, and later Count Basie, Satchmo, and Tony Bennett. But these were special events, not regular nightly appearances. Wayne Nichols held forth at the Derby Club, but that was a strip joint and the music was incidental. Bill Phillips founded the Blue Note but it was continually struggling and didn't become a major factor until much later under different management. The brightest spot was a coffee house called The Buddhi, located on N Hudson, where all the top folk artists played and several significant performances were recorded -- but it failed to last and went dark even before the folk-music craze faded out.

I'm not sure that the stereotype is still so widely believed as you indicate; more and more folk are visiting here (e.g. Charles Barkley) and expressing amazement at what we have going. Remember, we're smack in the middle of flyover country, and few places on earth are as provincial as the two coasts of this nation. Yet despite all this, we've been better represented in the entertainment industry over the years than many other areas: James Garner, Jimmy Webb, Kristin Chenowith, Reba, Garth, Vince Gill, The Flaming Lips, these are just a few names that come to mind.

At least, people are quite aware of us these days -- and becoming moreso with every day that passes...

[JohnH_in_OKC]

Not until the election of Dewey Bartlett, the first Republican governor of the state, did the state as a whole initiate any concerted effort to improve its image. He established the "Oklahoma is OK!" slogan, and gave out honorary Okie pins to celebrities much as Kentucky award Colonel commissions.

Jim, you forgot that Henry Bellmon preceded Dewey Bartlett & was Oklahoma's first Republican governor. I went to high school with his 3 girls & they were all excellent people. Bellmon himself was a great man & would be appalled at today's Oklahoma Republicans. He was independent minded & weighed every issue for what it was & not which party supported that issue. He was an AMERICAN FIRST, not a Republican first. I am biased since his daughter Gail was a good friend of my sister Betty & we once visited the Bellmon farm on the way home from a trip to Kansas. Gov. Bellmon showed me his farm & drove me around in his pickup.

I also knew the Edmondson family & went to a square dance party at the governor's mansion with Jeannie's 3rd (or 4th) grade class from Wilson Elementary.

At Governor Bartlett's victory party, I tried to talk one of the Bartlett kids (probably Dewey Jr.) into attending Classen instead of Casady, but I wasn't successful (I probably never had a chance).

[soonerguru]

I don't usually even acknowledge the OKC vs. Tulsa thing, because for one I really love T-town as a neighboring city, and visit often for various reasons. I think the whole thing is pretty dumb. But that article is a microcosm of the OKC vs. Tulsa grudge. Were the roles reversed and some ignoramus came to OKC spewing inaccuracies about Tulsa for the sake of brown nosing the 405, they would likely never make it into print in an OKC publication. Folks here for the most part would know they were patently false. Yet, in a Tulsa publication they are sought out and even celebrated. Stuff like this gives an apparent psychological boost to a number of Tulsans who aren't aware (and don't care to be aware) that they aren't even close to accurate.

The only thing that ever bugs me about Tulsa is the pervasive bigotry that so many people there hold toward OKC. The attitude is improving, I think, but it's still pretty aggravating.

It's embarrassing. Little brother masquerading as big brother complex. They really f'n hate the fact that OKC is improving there.

[soonerguru]

Boring, redneck, uneducated, backwards, right wing, terrible for young singles, etc, etc are what a majority of Americans outside Oklahoma think about OKC. While a case can be made that perception is changing with recent positive press, it still seems to be very pervasive. Just look at the comments on any national article that casts OKC in a positive light and see what I mean. This thread thus far has discussed what OKC needs to do to move beyond that image, but I am wondering how it got that image in the first place? Was it the 1980s oil bust? The Pei Plan? Is it because Tulsa civic boosters paint OKC in that manner so they can boost Tulsa? I did a search and found a NewsOK article from back in 1985 discussing this very issue and how the mayor at the time was initiating a campaign to promote a more positive image of OKC. Can any local history buffs answer how and why OKC ended up with the stereotype?

It's because of our politicians. They're complete right-wing nutbags. That's why we have that image. And the Oklahoma City Dolls made for TV movie made OKC out to be the cowtown it truly was at one time. Also, there was the depiction of OKC in Silkwood. Hollywood imagery has not been kind and we have these mouthbreating wingers speaking on our behalf to the entire country (with Sally Kern for good measure).

I have to question this, however: I have tried numerous times to remind you of all of the incredibly positive national press OKC is receiving, and you continue to post stuff like this. Why? Why do you discount the fact that our national image is changing?

And I ask, being from Charlotte, what is the national image of that city? It's probably not very flattering if it has a national image at all. A lot of people make generalizations about southern cities (and many of the generalizations are at least partially true). Point is, by the time every hipster in America looks at OKC as a utopia OKC will be well-past cool.

[Jim Kyle]

Jim, you forgot that Henry Bellmon preceded Dewey Bartlett & was Oklahoma's first Republican governor. I went to high school with his 3 girls & they were all excellent people.

Yes, I really ought to have remembered Henry, especially since we ran an article about his daughters a couple of years ago in The New Classen Life (which I've edited since late 2007)! I have no excuse.

It appears that you, too, are a Comet. Are you aware of the Classen High School Alumni Association, which publishes the NCL and maintains a museum in the Classen building which we've just renovated? If not, let me know and I'll see you get the full information about our group and its activities, plus a copy of a recent NCL (it's a 40-page slick magazine that comes out every three months; the August issue is on the presses as I type this and should hit the post office around the end of next week). What year did you graduate (I'm a member of the 1948 class)?

[bchris02]

It's because of our politicians. They're complete right-wing nutbags. That's why we have that image. And the Oklahoma City Dolls made for TV movie made OKC out to be the cowtown it truly was at one time. Also, there was the depiction of OKC in Silkwood. Hollywood imagery has not been kind and we have these mouthbreating wingers speaking on our behalf to the entire country (with Sally Kern for good measure).

Agree with this, but OKC isn't unique in having stupid politicians. Charlotte has Bill James, who is every bit as bad as Sally Kern, yet he isn't a national name. I wonder why. Hollywood and the media hasn't typically been kind to Oklahoma. That is also true of Arkansas and Mississippi, both of which have similar stigmas. I especially dislike how the media is dividing our nation into 'Red states' and 'Blue states' and stereotyping everyone accordingly. We are a nation of different shades of purple for the most part, OKC being no exception.

I have to question this, however: I have tried numerous times to remind you of all of the incredibly positive national press OKC is receiving, and you continue to post stuff like this. Why? Why do you discount the fact that our national image is changing?

I don't discount it. Truly open minded people have a better image of OKC and don't cling to stereotypes. However, simply read the comments on any of these articles to find out a lot of people still believe them. My most recent post was simply asking how those stereotypes came to be, not to accuse OKC of living up to the stereotype.

I have also been around a lot of negativity until very recently, some of which has rubbed off on me. If I have offended anyone, I apologize.

And I ask, being from Charlotte, what is the national image of that city? It's probably not very flattering if it has a national image at all. A lot of people make generalizations about southern cities (and many of the generalizations are at least partially true). Point is, by the time every hipster in America looks at OKC as a utopia OKC will be well-past cool.

Charlotte's doesn't really have that much of a national image, but if anything I would say people think of banking, NASCAR, and the excesses of the 2000s housing boom. Also the worst basketball team in NBA history. Hollywood hasn't been as cruel to it as it has Oklahoma though. Having the DNC really helped them but with the hard-right turn of their politics recently, I think their image will be tarnished.

[soonerguru]

Agree with this, but OKC isn't unique in having stupid politicians. Charlotte has Bill James, who is every bit as bad as Sally Kern, yet he isn't a national name. I wonder why. Hollywood and the media hasn't typically been kind to Oklahoma. That is also true of Arkansas and Mississippi, both of which have similar stigmas. I especially dislike how the media is dividing our nation into 'Red states' and 'Blue states' and stereotyping everyone accordingly. We are a nation of different shades of purple for the most part, OKC being no exception.



I don't discount it. Truly open minded people have a better image of OKC and don't cling to stereotypes. However, simply read the comments on any of these articles to find out a lot of people still believe them. My most recent post was simply asking how those stereotypes came to be, not to accuse OKC of living up to the stereotype.

I have also been around a lot of negativity until very recently, some of which has rubbed off on me. If I have offended anyone, I apologize.



Charlotte's doesn't really have that much of a national image, but if anything I would say people think of banking, NASCAR, and the excesses of the 2000s housing boom. Also the worst basketball team in NBA history. Hollywood hasn't been as cruel to it as it has Oklahoma though. Having the DNC really helped them but with the hard-right turn of their politics recently, I think their image will be tarnished.

Great post. I, too, care about our image, but I don't think it's as big a deal now as you may think. Part of OKC / Oklahoma's problem is an inferiority complex; people can tell when you're trying too hard. The fact is we have a city that is booming and turning into a very interesting place to live with low cost of living and many improvements in our quality of life. It's for us to enjoy, and if people want to move here, welcome!

While we should be concerned about our image I think we're on the right track just making a city where we want to live. Once we get there, we will have many new neighbors from other places.

I can't remember the abysmal Michael Douglas movie but it was in the early 2000s and there was a reference to his fictional family being sent to Austin. The wife was horrified and the husband apologized. Obviously, even "cool" cities like Austin had a poor national image at one time (due to being in Texas).

Let's just focus on making the most of our city and our image will follow.

As for the media, the coverage of OKC has been phenomenal -- even glowing -- the last few years. We really don't have much to complain about in that department when the New York Times Magazine is featuring our city and Forbes puts us on some "best" list once a month. I think it's going to be OK (but I'd love to throw some of these troglodytic politicians to the curb, starting with Lankford).

[bradh]

I consider myself Republican (just throwing that out there), and yes, we have some bad folks in the light who certainly don't help our image, but you guys sure paint with a broad brush blaming all our image problems on conservative politicians (you can't paint all you want on Sally Kern though).

As far as Lankford goes, I didn't vote for him because I was afraid he'd bring nothing but a religious whacko view to serving. I've actually been quite surprised and pleased with him. I've met him and heard him speak a few times, I think he has Oklahoma's best interest in mind as far as supporting Oklahoma businesses.

[Dubya61]

I can't remember the abysmal Michael Douglas movie but it was in the early 2000s and there was a reference to his fictional family being sent to Austin. The wife was horrified and the husband apologized. Obviously, even "cool" cities like Austin had a poor national image at one time (due to being in Texas).

I love the line in "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels" where Ruprecht (Steve Martin) gets excited about returning to Oklahoma -- although I don't think that improves our state (or city) image any.

[JohnH_in_OKC]

Yes, I really ought to have remembered Henry, especially since we ran an article about his daughters a couple of years ago in The New Classen Life (which I've edited since late 2007)! I have no excuse.

It appears that you, too, are a Comet. Are you aware of the Classen High School Alumni Association, which publishes the NCL and maintains a museum in the Classen building which we've just renovated? If not, let me know and I'll see you get the full information about our group and its activities, plus a copy of a recent NCL (it's a 40-page slick magazine that comes out every three months; the August issue is on the presses as I type this and should hit the post office around the end of next week). What year did you graduate (I'm a member of the 1948 class)?

Jim, I am a proud graduate of Classen's Class of '67. Our class of '67 built the planter gracing the front of our school. I think I met you last year at our OKC Talk get-together & will likely see you at our OKC Talk get-together on August 14th. I need to resubscribe to Classen Life & visit the newly renovated Classen museum.

Thank goodness for people like you who keep the spirit of Classen alive.

--- John Hite, Classen '67, OU '71

[Rover]

Really, the first real national image of Oklahoma was formed because of the dustbowl and "The Grapes of Wrath". Dustbowl migrants from OK to Cali were mostly uneducated farmers who fled to Cali and were migrant farm workers much like Mexican illegals who followed them in time. Okies were poor, uneducated, but decent folks, but weren't really welcomed except to be poorly paid laborers.

Before the dustbowl era, the view was that Oklahoma was where you could go if you had nothing and get a new start. It attracted many who were willing to work and fight to get a piece of land and a chance out of poverty. It was not necessarily settled by privileged or educated people. And it was a populist state because it was the common man who settled here.

[Jim Kyle]

I think I met you last year at our OKC Talk get-together & will likely see you at our OKC Talk get-together on August 14th.

Couldn't have happened last year because I wasn't at that get-together. I'm looking forward to being there this year, though, and I'll bring along a copy of the latest issue of the NCL...

[bchris02]

Really, the first real national image of Oklahoma was formed because of the dustbowl and "The Grapes of Wrath". Dustbowl migrants from OK to Cali were mostly uneducated farmers who fled to Cali and were migrant farm workers much like Mexican illegals who followed them in time. Okies were poor, uneducated, but decent folks, but weren't really welcomed except to be poorly paid laborers.

Before the dustbowl era, the view was that Oklahoma was where you could go if you had nothing and get a new start. It attracted many who were willing to work and fight to get a piece of land and a chance out of poverty. It was not necessarily settled by privileged or educated people. And it was a populist state because it was the common man who settled here.

I've always thought this odd. I recently watched a documentary on the dust bowl and according to that documentary it was primarily the panhandle that was effected. Eastern Oklahoma, where the Grapes of Wrath is set, didn't even experience the dust bowl and in fact a few fled there and to western Arkansas to escape it.

[Jim Kyle]

Not odd at all; Steinbeck was a Californian and knew almost nothing about the geography of Oklahoma. He simply picked a town off the map and used that as his starting point. Most of the "okies" who fled to California actually were from Kansas and Colorado, which were much harder hit than was Oklahoma itself. The "black blizzards" that rolled across the east coast were from Colorado. I recommend James Michener's "Centennial" for a much more accurate picture of settlement in the central plains; Michener always did do his research quite well!

[Rover]

Not odd at all; Steinbeck was a Californian and knew almost nothing about the geography of Oklahoma. He simply picked a town off the map and used that as his starting point. Most of the "okies" who fled to California actually were from Kansas and Colorado, which were much harder hit than was Oklahoma itself. The "black blizzards" that rolled across the east coast were from Colorado. I recommend James Michener's "Centennial" for a much more accurate picture of settlement in the central plains; Michener always did do his research quite well!

Also a good read is "The Worst Hard Times". Great book and accurate.

[Rover]

I've always thought this odd. I recently watched a documentary on the dust bowl and according to that documentary it was primarily the panhandle that was effected. Eastern Oklahoma, where the Grapes of Wrath is set, didn't even experience the dust bowl and in fact a few fled there and to western Arkansas to escape it.

And yet, those immigrants to Cal were called "Okies" and it stuck...totally factual or not. Okies became the symbol of poor, uneducated displaced laborers. Since that wasn't that long ago and given the popularity of the book, we have been battling that image every since.

[ljbab728]

I'm not sure if this has been posted here before. It's a very nice short commercial by the Chickasaw Nation. I'm sure some of the video is stock footage but it's put together very nicely. I hope it is available outside the local area.

[Bunty]

I've always thought this odd. I recently watched a documentary on the dust bowl and according to that documentary it was primarily the panhandle that was effected. Eastern Oklahoma, where the Grapes of Wrath is set, didn't even experience the dust bowl and in fact a few fled there and to western Arkansas to escape it.

Instead of the Dust Bowl, the declining rural situation surely had more to do with farm jobs drying up due to the tractor and other modern implementation. At any rate, the phenomenon certainly didn't go away with the Dust Bowl. Population statistics show that nearly all towns in Arkansas and Oklahoma over the population of 5,000 added on more people from 1920 to 1940. Oklahoma City more than doubled in size during that period. Tulsa nearly doubled. It surely shows how fewer farm hands were needed due to advances in mechanization. So, many rural folks went looking to the cities for jobs in manufacturing and other fields. Those who wanted no part of city life must have chose to move to California to pick crops. During the 1950s rural Oklahoma continued to decline, since it led to Oklahoma losing nearly 100,000 people during the 1950s, while cities over 5000 pop. continued to add new people with very few exceptions. Oil boom and busts also surely played a role to explain population shifts. For instance, probably people weren't moving to Oklahoma during the 1950s, due to any oil boom.