John Rex Elementary

[Pete]

Since the previous link was broken, here is that conceptual design from the TAP site:

[mcca7596]

Whoa, that changed. It was showing the K/1st building and building support along California.

[Architect2010]

That arrangement is even better. California isn't a defined street to begin with, by shifting buildings around having them face Sheridan and Walker instead of Walker and California, we're reinforcing Film Row, and the streetscape of Sheridan. How does JTF think about this simple swap of an arrangement? Get over the playground though because it's not going away.

If OKC is the measuring stick you want to go by then so be it. The only thing worse than setting a high standard and not meeting it is setting a low standard and meeting it every time. I just wish OKC architects could dig a little deeper.

Suburbia is going to be the same everywhere, but you're cool for avoiding the point of the post. Suburban schools ALL OVER THE COUNTRY have setbacks of hundreds of feet, are massive, have parking lots. Is that better for you JTF? Since you live in Jacksonville, should I be comparing this design to your particular suburban schools? Honestly, this diagram depicts a school that is more urban than the typical American suburban school.

Type in suburban schools on google. I know the results aren't all from Oklahoma, so obviously it isn't just our architects that could/should/would "dig a little deeper". Lol.

[Just the facts]

That orientation is an improvement because it contributes to the existing urban fabric being built along Sheridan and Walker. I will be looking forward to see how "security strategy" manifest itself (even if it was just an enclosed hallway going around the perimeter).

I hope this statement from the TAP's web page is true.

TAP and OWPP | Cannon are now hard at work designing a new model for elementary education in Oklahoma.

[Just the facts]

Hence the need for a charter school and not a union led regular public school. A playground will help fight the childhood obesity problem that is also an issue. That being said, I didn't see room for a gym?

One of benefits of New Urbanism is that people get sufficient excersie by simply goong about their daily life - on foot or bike. If the community was dense enough that children walked to school (or to the store/movies/lunch/dinner/park) instead of riding in a car there wouldn't be a need for large school playgrounds. I started riding my bike for exercise and fun, but I lost the most weight when I made a lifestyle change and started riding the bike as a means of transportation.

[Rover]

Kids don't need playgrounds? Wow. That's a plank of new urbanist philosophy?

[wschnitt]

Since the previous link was broken, here is that conceptual design from the TAP site:

Is the urban plaza going to close the intersection?

[Just the facts]

Kids don't need playgrounds? Wow. That's a plank of new urbanist philosophy?

Where did I say kids don't need playgrounds? If I have learned one thing on OKCTalk it is that your reading comprehension skills suck.

The argument was being made that kids need large playgrounds at school because they lack basic exercise in all other facets of their lives. In suburbia this is true because kids take a car to the park, to school, to pre-arranged play dates in other subdivisions, to the library, to lunch, to church, to ... everywhere. Even the local subdivision park is usually outside the independent reach of most kids. But in a new urbanism world that is not the case. Walking becomes the primary mode of transportation. If kids get sufficient exercise by simply living why should the school have more than 70% of its land dedicated to playground space? Wouldn't 30% be sufficient?

Have you noticed that the bigger the playgrounds at school get the fatter the kids get? Our schools have more land dedicated to recreation than ever before and our kids are fatter than ever. Do you think it is possible that destroying the self mobility of children via miles of urban sprawl might be the source of the weight gain, and not just in kids, but in adults as well?

[Just the facts]

Is the urban plaza going to close the intersection?

No, the intersection will not be closed.

[dankrutka]

Do you have any evidence that schools with bigger playgrounds have fatter students?

[kevinpate]

... Do you think it is possible that destroying the self mobility of children via miles of urban sprawl might be the source of the weight gain, and not just in kids, but in adults as well?

I'm more inclined to consider microwave ovens, followed closely by bigger & better ice cream storage space. Oh, and good chicken fry.

[Rover]

I think there is much more involved in the analysis of the playground requirements than the opinion that suburban kids are fat and urbanistas kids are lean. I know I must have reading issues as I haven't read the Cliff Notes for New Urbanist design or Urbanist Design for Dummies, but I have had quite a number of meetings with architectural design firms specializing in educational facilities and with any number of school boards etc. They seem to have pretty good reasons for inclusion of recreational break areas and seem to feel they are as necessary in an urban area as in the suburbs. I know they haven't read JTF's encyclopedia, but they do have their own guidelines. Usually what matters more is the ages, activities planned, number of students, security, safety, visibility and ability to monitor activity, etc. Without having sat in on the design reviews for this project, the playground area looks fairly appropriate in size. Without more detail and elevation drawings, I will assume the designer is competent and is accounting for all issues. Having not seen the details, I wouldn't yet pass judgement on the architectural aesthetics and it's congruency with the desired and planned downtown. If I can get someone to read them to me when they are available, I am sure I will have an opinion. Sorry JTF. LOL

[Just the facts]

Do you have any evidence that schools with bigger playgrounds have fatter students?

Why do you think playgrounds are bigger now than they ever have been? When I was in elementary school (way back in the late '70s) kids were expected to play during non-school time. Recess was meant for a break from school work and as time to allow teachers to transition between subjects, not as a means of exercise. About 10 posts back I suggest smaller playground sizes for urban schools and was told (by lasomeday) that childhood obesity is a reason for larger playgrounds. I guess you should go ask him where his evidence is because I just took his word for it as it sounded like a reasonable reason to me.

[Just the facts]

I know I must have reading issues as I haven't read the Cliff Notes for New Urbanist design or Urbanist Design for Dummies, but I have had quite a number of meetings with architectural design firms specializing in educational facilities and with any number of school boards etc. They seem to have pretty good reasons for inclusion of recreational break areas and seem to feel they are as necessary in an urban area as in the suburbs.

Here you go:

http://cybermars.mls.lib.ok.us/marsi...rban%20nation:

It is on the shelf at the Southern Oaks branch of the Metropolitan Library System.

From the summary:

A manifesto by America's most controversial and celebrated town planners, proposing an alternative model for community design. There is a growing movement in North America to put an end to suburban sprawl and to replace the automobile-based settlement patterns of the past fifty years with a return to more traditional planning principles. This movement stems not only from the realization that sprawl is ecologically and economically unsustainable but also from a growing awareness of sprawl's many victims: children, utterly dependent on parental transportation if they wish to escape the cul-de-sac; the elderly, warehoused in institutions once they lose their driver's licenses; the middle class, stuck in traffic for two or more hours each day. Founders of the Congress for the New Urbanism, Andres Duany and Elizabeth Plater-Zyberk are at the forefront of this movement, and in Suburban Nation they assess sprawl's costs to society, be they ecological, economic, aesthetic, or social. It is a lively, thorough, critical lament, and an entertaining lesson on the distinctions between postwar suburbia-characterized by housing clusters, strip shopping centers, office parks, and parking lots-and the traditional neighborhoods that were built as a matter of course until mid-century. It is an indictment of the entire development community, including governments, for the fact that America no longer builds towns. Most important, though, it is that rare book that also offers solutions.

[kevinpate]

FWIW, when I was an elementary lad, before the 70's, each of the three elementary schools had rather massive outdoor recreation space, including swings, monkey bars, m-go-rounds, ball game space, hardpack space and run your legs off space.

Teachers, most anyway, were outside when we were, if only to make certain we dinna scale fences and go exploring. Dora and Diego weren't around back then, but even if they had been, they wouldn't of had nothing on our exploring and adventure ideas.

Later, when the home town combined the schools into one big complex as a K-3 facility and a nearby 4-5 facility, the land purchase came with as much, or more, play areas than the three schools had at their separate locations.

We were a small town back then, well under 7,000, but using at least one definition in this thread, we were I suppose urban to the max. Anyone older than 9 or 10 was bike riding throughout the core of town with friends, and by junior high age you were often pedaling out to friends in the hinterlands, including both back roads and main highway (using the shoulders) bike rides.

Back to the main point, we were expected and encouraged to burn off our energy at recess time, 3 daily, in hopes we'd be calm enough to pay attention during class time.

[Just the facts]

FWIW, when I was an elementary lad, before the 70's, each of the three elementary schools had rather massive outdoor recreation space, including swings, monkey bars, m-go-rounds, ball game space, hardpack space and run your legs off space.

Teachers, most anyway, were outside when we were, if only to make certain we dinna scale fences and go exploring. Dora and Diego weren't around back then, but even if they had been, they wouldn't of had nothing on our exploring and adventure ideas.

Later, when the home town combined the schools into one big complex as a K-3 facility and a nearby 4-5 facility, the land purchase came with as much, or more, play areas than the three schools had at their separate locations.

We were a small town back then, well under 7,000, but using at least one definition in this thread, we were I suppose urban to the max. Anyone older than 9 or 10 was bike riding throughout the core of town with friends, and by junior high age you were often pedaling out to friends in the hinterlands, including both back roads and main highway (using the shoulders) bike rides.

Back to the main point, we were expected and encouraged to burn off our energy at recess time, 3 daily, in hopes we'd be calm enough to pay attention during class time.

Thank you. Progress has been made.

[Spartan]

Here you go:

http://cybermars.mls.lib.ok.us/marsi...rban%20nation:

It is on the shelf at the Southern Oaks branch of the Metropolitan Library System.

From the summary:

Which is closed for renovations.

[InsiderInfo]

I just had dinner with a very reliable source on city issues and I'm being told the downtown school is as good as dead. Apparently some strong interest group was opposed to it and it's likely being scuttled unless someone powerful comes in as a savior. This is bad news for downtown.

[Pete]

What strong interest group and why would they be against a downtown school?

This thing is pretty far down the track for this to happen now.

[BoulderSooner]

it is already funded .. not dead

[InsiderInfo]

What strong interest group and why would they be against a downtown school?

This thing is pretty far down the track for this to happen now.

According to my friend, who works for the city, the teachers union and the charter advocates couldn't come to an agreement on how the school would be run and several other issues (or they aren't making progress).

I shouldn't say the deal is completely dead, but it's highly likely it is dead in the form we've been hearing and discussing.

[InsiderInfo]

it is already funded .. not dead

It may be funded, but that doesn't mean we're getting what we've been told heretofore.

[Skyline]

The city needs to build the school first.

After the school is built the unions can fight with the charter advocates.

As long as the school gets built , I don't think the majority of citizens will care if it is run by charter or OKCPS. They will care if the school gets nixed altogether.

[Spartan]

According to my friend, who works for the city, the teachers union and the charter advocates couldn't come to an agreement on how the school would be run and several other issues (or they aren't making progress).

I shouldn't say the deal is completely dead, but it's highly likely it is dead in the form we've been hearing and discussing.

It is so obviously going to be a charter school, irregardless of what some unqualified OEA hicks have to say about it. I am NO proponent of charter schools, and I do believe in equal education for the masses, but I am simply unaware of any other way to run a downtown elementary. It has to have a special focus in order to truly take advantage of the opportunity it presents students.

I just posted a preliminary site plan on my blog, but the site plan is also available on TAP's website under their ongoing projects. Obviously the building won't fill the entire block, but the Walker frontage will be completely covered, featuring some "urban emphasis corners," and the admin wing of the school will front Sheridan. California and Dewey (or Lee is after Walker? I forget) will have a pond and a fence along it.

[dankrutka]

some unqualified OEA hicks...

This is where you lose people, Spartan. If you just had a little more humility more people would listen to you... and they should because you have a lot of good things to say.