Plans may be in place to reduce the Fire dept by an additional 45 personnel

[metro]

What do you firepeople think you are going to accomplish by this thread? Honestly..

[Rover]

Rover, I like to think we have a very competent management on our dept. I have to think with the proceeds going back into the system it would make it more efficient.

Ah yes...that's what all govt agencies think.

[bornhere]

I know that government people and monopolies have trouble understanding the concept of enterprise, but it is actually good business for "for profit" companies to do excellent work, provide the services the consumers want, & do so more efficiently than bureaucratic organizations. Government organizations nearly always underestimate the power of private enterprise.

Can you cite any actual examples of this? I ask as someone who has worked in both the public and private sector and didn't see much difference in terms of quality and efficiency.

[Mikemarsh51]

bornhere, Memphis has a great system. We've sent several people out there to have them study their system. Hoping to learn what they have already figured out.

Metro, initially I started this thread to bring awareness to the fact that promises were made. Since the start of the fiscal year 29 positions are gone and plans are in place to possibly drop that 45 more positions. I did this on the off chance there was someone out there unlike you. Someone who actually cares about public safety.

[barnold]

Metro- to educate and get the "other" side of the story out there. I love it when you say "you firepeople". I'm also a small business owner, teacher, home owner, taxpayer, father and grandfather who happens to have a passion for his primary occupation. What does a person like you seek to accomplish by posting here?

[urbanity]

The Oklahoma City Council and firefighters’ union agree to a contract, just as planning for next fiscal year’s contract begins

(SEE POLL ON MAPS 3 AND PUBLIC SAFETY AT LINK)

http://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/ar...slow-burn.html

[Midtowner]

Isn't it funny that they agreed to the contract right after they discovered they couldn't beat the Chamber in the municipal elections. Be glad that the incumbents aren't vindictive sorts.

[Wambo36]

Isn't it funny that they agreed to the contract right after they discovered they couldn't beat the Chamber in the municipal elections. Be glad that the incumbents aren't vindictive sorts.

Actually, the funny thing is that you have no idea what you're talking about. The contract in question was settled between the parties before the council meeting (actually, at least a week before) and the council voted on it on the day of the municipal elections, not after. Next time you should educate yourself on the timelines of the event so you could be a little more accurate. Don't let your rush to slam someone make you get too sloppy.

[Larry OKC]

Isn't it funny that they agreed to the contract right after they discovered they couldn't beat the Chamber in the municipal elections. Be glad that the incumbents aren't vindictive sorts.

Timeline of events from the story in the Oklahoman that I posted in another thread:
http://www.newsok.com/oklahoma-city-...ticle/3545123#

Feb 7
"The firefighters union membership ratified the 2010-2011 contract"

March 1
"Oklahoma City Council members Tuesday unanimously passed a collective bargaining agreement with its firefighters union."

March 1
Council Elections

[barnold]

Just another Midtowner negative post against PS derailed by the facts of the situation. Thanks larry.

[rcjunkie]

Just another Midtowner negative post against PS derailed by the facts of the situation. Thanks larry.

Curious, are they talking uniform or non-uniform

[Larry OKC]

Curious, are they talking uniform or non-uniform

Would have to presume whomever comprises "collective bargaining agreement with its firefighters union."???

[Leaps]

i have read about this in other areas also. Most of the communities are over policed and the cities are canning the people (fire dept) that we need the most to support the police departments. Maybe the city should make it a requirement for the police officers to go through fire training and volunteer their time to saving lives for a change.

[rcjunkie]

i have read about this in other areas also. Most of the communities are over policed and the cities are canning the people (fire dept) that we need the most to support the police departments. Maybe the city should make it a requirement for the police officers to go through fire training and volunteer their time to saving lives for a change.

Even though some will disagree, our police and Fire Departments are adequately staffed and funded. I'll also offer that all City of OKC Departements are adequately funded and staffed, it's a matter of making adjustments where needed and making sure everyone is doing the job they were hired to do.

[barnold]

RC, you're right I disagree. Most departments are grossly understaffed and underfunded. They are however top heavy in city management positions which the FD consolidated several years back to ward off impending cuts in operations personnel. Departments now are faced with which jobs will get done and which ones will not; or get pushed to the back burner. Ie. cut brush pumpers in the FD. With your opinion of adequate staffing I'd ask you which apparatus or fire stations should be cut next? Justify your opinion and how you would deal with the fall out from the residents it will affect.

[rcjunkie]

RC, you're right I disagree. Most departments are grossly understaffed and underfunded. They are however top heavy in city management positions which the FD consolidated several years back to ward off impending cuts in operations personnel. Departments now are faced with which jobs will get done and which ones will not; or get pushed to the back burner. Ie. cut brush pumpers in the FD. With your opinion of adequate staffing I'd ask you which apparatus or fire stations should be cut next? Justify your opinion and how you would deal with the fall out from the residents it will affect.

The possible FD cuts involve mostly non-uniform positions (I know, I don't have a clue what I'm talking about, all I ever did was make short grass out of tall grass) BEAT YOU TO IT, but it's fact. The average, City wide, is one management position per 23 employees, so your "top heavy" comment is BS.

I just call them as I know them.

[Larry OKC]

Even though some will disagree, our police and Fire Departments are adequately staffed and funded. I'll also offer that all City of OKC Departements are adequately funded and staffed, it's a matter of making adjustments where needed and making sure everyone is doing the job they were hired to do.

The City disagrees. They have admitted that fire & police are understaffed for several years now.

[Larry OKC]

The possible FD cuts involve mostly non-uniform positions (I know, I don't have a clue what I'm talking about, all I ever did was make short grass out of tall grass) BEAT YOU TO IT, but it's fact. The average, City wide, is one management position per 23 employees, so your "top heavy" comment is BS.

I just call them as I know them.

Lets check the current City budget report available for download at OKC.gov.

Pg 11
The budget includes 4,327 permanent full-time positions, a reduction of 99 positions from the previous year.

pg 57
Pie Chart gives the following breakdown:

"Positions by Category"
970 Mgmt. = 22.4%
1,404 Other employees = 32.4%
1,024 Police ("all sworn positions") = 23.7%
922 Fire ("all of the uniformed positions)= 21.3%
7 Executive = .2%

Quick and dirty math shows 1 mgmt. position for every 4.46 employees (not 1 per 23). Guess it depends on what your definition of top heavy but that seems a little high to me

Do you have a source for the cuts being mostly non-uniform positions? The articles I ran across mention "firefighter" positions (not fire department, which could easily include non-uniform support personnel etc). There were articles stating that the vast majority of cuts were from vacant positions (retirement etc). But I don't recall it saying anything about uniformed/non-uniformed.

[barnold]

Larry, once again thank you for having numbers like these at the tips of your fingers. Sometimes it takes me a few days to go back and find those sources.

RC,
Once again; as confusing as it I know it is to you, the facts, numbers and the truth say completely opposite of what you post. Perhaps that's why you were promoted to management.

The proposed cuts were UNIFORMED positions. That means a firefighter that can physically pull a hose, pump a chest or wipe you ailing butt for you.
1 to 4.46 seems pretty high to me as well. They are the reason firefighters got out of the cities health program. Management employees were the number one drain on the system, with cops and firefighters being the least. It must be those nasty paper cuts that get infected....lol

[rcjunkie]

Larry, once again thank you for having numbers like these at the tips of your fingers. Sometimes it takes me a few days to go back and find those sources.

RC,
Once again; as confusing as it I know it is to you, the facts, numbers and the truth say completely opposite of what you post. Perhaps that's why you were promoted to management.

The proposed cuts were UNIFORMED positions. That means a firefighter that can physically pull a hose, pump a chest or wipe you ailing butt for you.
1 to 4.46 seems pretty high to me as well. They are the reason firefighters got out of the cities health program. Management employees were the number one drain on the system, with cops and firefighters being the least. It must be those nasty paper cuts that get infected....lol

I knew you would come back out from under the rock with your usual wise ass remarks, thanks for not disapointing us. Again, your figures and comments are wrong as always, but go on and live in "never never land".

PS. the election is over, get on with your life

[Wambo36]

I knew you would come back out from under the rock with your usual wise ass remarks, thanks for not disapointing us. Again, your figures and comments are wrong as always, but go on and live in "never never land".

PS. the election is over, get on with your life

Do you have Larry on ignore or something? He's posted the facts and figures that prove you to be dead wrong and all you can do is act like he's said nothing. Please show us where those figures are wrong or admit, what the rest of us have already figured out, that you have no idea what you're talking about.
Even though I know it's an exercise in futility I'm going to ask again. Where are the figures, posted from the citys own web site, wrong? Show us the figures that support your claim that the ratio is 23-1 or admit you're wrong.

PS. You're the only one talking about any election. Maybe you should follow your own advice.

[rcjunkie]

Do you have Larry on ignore or something? He's posted the facts and figures that prove you to be dead wrong and all you can do is act like he's said nothing. Please show us where those figures are wrong or admit, what the rest of us have already figured out, that you have no idea what you're talking about.
Even though I know it's an exercise in futility I'm going to ask again. Where are the figures, posted from the citys own web site, wrong? Show us the figures that support your claim that the ratio is 23-1 or admit you're wrong.

PS. You're the only one talking about any election. Maybe you should follow your own advice.

Well it's my little fire buddy Wambo, you can't explain to people with blinders on, you, Larry and Barnold continue on in never never land, I'll save my conversations for real men.

[Wambo36]

Well it's my little fire buddy Wambo, you can't explain to people with blinders on, you, Larry and Barnold continue on in never never land, I'll save my conversations for real men.

Why am I not suprised you can't answer a simple question without resorting to attacks?
I'm not asking you to explain anything. We know what your OPINION is. The problem is you're trying to throw that out as fact. What I'm asking you to do (even though I know better) is show the numbers that prove your 23-1 ratio to be correct. Try to focus on the task. I know that coming on here and pulling your "bull in a china shop" routine is your trademark, but today try to actually have a conversation and back up your contentions with some facts. You've been shown the facts that prove you're wrong, try to refute them without attacking anyone. Go ahead, try.

[rcjunkie]

Why am I not suprised you can't answer a simple question without resorting to attacks?
I'm not asking you to explain anything. We know what your OPINION is. The problem is you're trying to throw that out as fact. What I'm asking you to do (even though I know better) is show the numbers that prove your 23-1 ratio to be correct. Try to focus on the task. I know that coming on here and pulling your "bull in a china shop" routine is your trademark, but today try to actually have a conversation and back up your contentions with some facts. You've been shown the facts that prove you're wrong, try to refute them without attacking anyone. Go ahead, try.

I save the personal attacks for Barnold, that's his method of operation. Again, and try to follow along, you, as always have on blinders, I'll save my time for someone thats open minded and willing to look at all evidence.

P.S. come on up to Tenkiller, the fish are biting.

[Wambo36]

I save the personal attacks for Barnold, that's his method of operation. Again, and try to follow along, you, as always have on blinders, I'll save my time for someone thats open minded and willing to look at all evidence.

P.S. come on up to Tenkiller, the fish are biting.

In other words you have no evidence to back up your claims and aren't up to admitting that you were wrong. That's all the answer I need, thanks.

P.S. Just got back from the lake. Thanks anyway.