If you don't live downtown, why not?

[dmoor82]

No and because it's too expensive and I get more square footage in The suburbs,and where is The closest grocery store from downtown?

[Dustin]

Nope. My home is closer to my job.

[Midtowner]

I feel like you read my mind and wrote it out perfectly. I grew up around Hefner, too. Also, the no grocery thing didn't really bother me a ton when I lived downtown either.

My last post on the subject was read out loud at a ULI meeting I attended to kick off discussion on downtown development. The developers are aware of this issue, they just don't seem to care. I understand that they're entitled to reasonable margins on their investments, but c'mon. They're in many cases getting their land from OCURA, so land acquisition cost, usually a big impediment to downtown development, isn't even an issue. What they're doing is taking out big 'ol construction loans, building spec houses, pricing them in the stratosphere and sitting on them. I suppose that it's been a few years since some of those houses were started and they're still vacant, they need those outrageous margins just to break even (speculation on my part, but if it wasn't true, why on Earth haven't they backed down off of their prices?).

The grocery thing is just a silly excuse. I grew up in NE Edmond on an acreage, far away from any grocery store. It was definitely not a big deal there either.

[betts]

I do laugh at a couple of my friends that live downtown (2 in Heritage Hills, 1 in Putnam Heights and 2 in Deep Deuce). They brag about living downtown and being able to "walk to everything". The reality though is other than the 2 in Deep Deuce who occasionally walk into Bricktown, they all still get in their car and drive to everything downtown. If you're going to drive anyway, then what's an extra 5-10 minutes and avoid the high cost of living. I think the wife and I will most likely bike to everything when we move. Or, maybe that 2-seater Segway will be available!

Ah, but once there's a streetcar, they will be able to walk to the streetcar and get everywhere. And my friends who live in Heritage Hills walk to Midtown to eat dinner frequently. But none of my friends in Nichols Hills walk to the Nichols Hills Plaza to eat at Saturn, Cool Greens or have coffee at Starbucks even though it's frequently just a few blocks. The kids do walk to the drugstore, but that's about it. Everyone in Deep Deuce walks, because I see them all the time, walking into Bricktown, up to Ninth Street, over to Sage, the Wedge or the Deep Deuce Grill. I frequently see a really big group of people walking into Bricktown or Deep Deuce from the Maywood Lofts. I'll be walking to the Thunder game tonight, as always. I do drive to the grocery store, but so does everyone I know who lives elsewhere in OKC, so it's not as if living downtown has created a hindrance to grocery shopping; it's just not extra-convenient.

[brianinok]

Because I have a pool table and no place downtown can accommodate that and a living area and a dining area. Well, at least at a price I can afford. I could afford a smaller unit at Block 42 or something, but I wouldn't be able to have 2 bedrooms and a living area big enough to accommodate a pool table as well. I live in west Edmond now with 3 bedrooms, 2 baths, 2 car garage, and a living room big enough that I have my pool table at one end and a couch, chairs, tables, and entertainment center at the other (with plenty of room).

I would love to be able to afford a big enough place downtown, though.

[PennyQuilts]

I assume most of everyone on this particular board is on here because they love downtown OKC or are at least highly interested in it. So, question #1: do you already live downtown, and question #2: if you don't, why not?

I'm not on here for reasons related to DT. I am surprised someone would assume that.

But as to no grocery stores DT, I don't see that as too big a deal. Most of us buy more than we want to haul on foot, anyway. My favorite thing is sitting out under the stars in the quiet with my dogs and a glass of wine. Not everyone wants that but for those that do, DT isn't even an option.

[bradzilla]

I have friends who live downtown and they seem to enjoy it, like most things going to the grocery store really isnt terribly far out of the way and most of them do it on their way home from work.

I personally dont live downtown because i like a slower pace of life when i get home, space for our dogs, and the peace and quite when we go outside. But i will say there are some downfalls to living this far out, i rarely see my neighbors and there isnt an overwhelming sense of community because everyone locks themselves inside their house when they arent doing yard work. Besides that im getting to the age where i dont have strong desire to go out and have $100 dollar bar tabs and not remember anything from the night before.

Plus being married nothing great ever comes from going out with or without your wife and being surrounded by single people. Just setting yourself up for a bad situation.

[bluedogok]

My last post on the subject was read out loud at a ULI meeting I attended to kick off discussion on downtown development. The developers are aware of this issue, they just don't seem to care. I understand that they're entitled to reasonable margins on their investments, but c'mon. They're in many cases getting their land from OCURA, so land acquisition cost, usually a big impediment to downtown development, isn't even an issue. What they're doing is taking out big 'ol construction loans, building spec houses, pricing them in the stratosphere and sitting on them. I suppose that it's been a few years since some of those houses were started and they're still vacant, they need those outrageous margins just to break even (speculation on my part, but if it wasn't true, why on Earth haven't they backed down off of their prices?).

Mainly because that is what developers do in other markets and even in other parts of town, none of them want to build "starter homes" in the burbs either. The thinking is there is enough existing housing stock to move "down market" when the new, higher end stock comes online. While that works in the typical suburban housing market since there is no "existing stock" in Downtown OKC that market transition for existing properties does not occur. Also, since everything is financed and for the most part those doing the financing are out of state they don't seem to understand that OKC is a bit of a different market for urban housing. That may also be a reason why the high end is all that gets built, those financing the construction are demanding it.

The grocery thing is just a silly excuse. I grew up in NE Edmond on an acreage, far away from any grocery store. It was definitely not a big deal there either.

Even in the burbs or "inner city" it is pretty much happenstance if you are able to walk to a grocery store, those days are long since gone. Since the grocery business has gone to a large format type of store the "neighborhood store" has gone away. That happened in my parents neighborhood while I was still living there, the Safeway at NW 16th & Meridian closed in the early 70's, replaced by the larger one at NW 23rd & Ann Arbor. 10-M at NW 10th & Meridian closed in the early 80's. It just seems there are greater distances between stores now than long ago and the "neighborhood store" is now a high priced convenience store that most people wouldn't want to shop in. It is an overblown issue for Downtown OKC even in comparison to other markets.

The Whole Foods in Downtown Austin is on the west side of downtown and many of the new residential properties (both condo and rental) are on the east side of downtown so it is still a pretty long hike to WF. Most that I know also head out to one of the HEB stores in the near downtown neighborhoods (in their car) to do the bulk of their grocery shopping.

In one of the proposals for the Deep Deuce development there was a grocery and pharmacy proposed but they chose the out-of-state development money from Dallas rather the local designer/developer.

[old okie]

I'm not on here for reasons related to DT. I am surprised someone would assume that.

But as to no grocery stores DT, I don't see that as too big a deal. Most of us buy more than we want to haul on foot, anyway. My favorite thing is sitting out under the stars in the quiet with my dogs and a glass of wine. Not everyone wants that but for those that do, DT isn't even an option.

I'll second that, PQ! I joined this forum because I believed issues of importance to Oklahoma City--ALL of it, not just downtown--would be the focus. DT OKC is just creepy to me; always has been. I think it's a borderline claustrophobic reaction for me. Tall buildings create a strobe-like effect with lights and shadows and often kick off migraines for me--and it doesn't matter which big city I'm in.

Just like some folks don't enjoy the "loneliness" of the country, others of us don't want the congestion of a downtown. Being in the 'burbs solves both problems.

[PennyQuilts]

Old Okie, now that you mention it, I understand what you are saying. I never thought it through but the strobe effect of the light behind the buildings sometimes makes my migraine prone brain cringe, too.

We are within the city limits but it is more semi rural than suburban. Which I love. One thing I notice is that we are just far enough out that we all make a point of knowing our neighbors - kind of like farmers. We know we will need to depend on each other if the power goes out, if someone had a medical emergency or there is a grass fire, for example. Plus, people who live in this type of neighborhood have a lot in common with each other - we aren't ending up here by default. You can count on the guys enjoying either a shop (wood working, machine or just tinkering), someone in the family enjoys lawnwork and just about everyone loves their dogs. A number of us have livestock. As far as locking the doors and not looking out, it isn't like that. The lifestyle attacts people who like to be outside and even though we aren't elbow to elbow, we wave to each other, talk over the fence (because we have lots in common) and check on everyone in bad weather. We know when people are gone, pick up mail and the paper, even knock out the lawn if someone is on vacation. But everyone respects everyone's privacy. A group of the retired guys in the neighborhood meet for breakfast once a week. It's nice. I wouldn't trade it for anything.

[Larry OKC]

1). No

2). Definitely think a cost analysis is in order. If you are in Betts' situation, it can certainly make sense (she saves more in other areas than the increased housing costs). Close to things that are important to her (Thunder games etc). As I have posted elsewhere, my situation is different. My interests aren't DT specific and my employer is near Edmond. Live in 2 bed/2 bath 1,000sf apartment where I don't have a lot of the expenses Betts described, for $550/month plus electric ($120/month). No additional fees, HOA etc. Why move DT where cost are higher and spaces are smaller than what I have now?

To go back to what Casey & brianinOK were saying, remember when I was going to relocate to Houston, I was having to look at places that were 2 or 3 times the sf just to get my furniture to fit would get 2 out of 3 main rooms to work but there was always 1 that wouldn't). I swear, EVERY apt place I looked at in Houston had a fireplace (which also took up wall/floor space) and other than for Christmastime decorating, can't imagine why someone would want or need a fireplace in Houston. Even then, most didn't have mantels so that part wouldn't work either. But I digress...My current place has one window in each room and usually located in the corner against a door of some sort so floor space taken up is at a minimum and basically means 3 unbroken wall spaces. Of course, 2 or 3 times the size also meant corresponding higher rent.

Lack of proximity of grocery and other shopping. While little is currently within walking distance (the grocery store is the closest but not really doable), everything is easily along my path between home and work. There are 2 Wal-Mart SuperCenters, a regular Target, SuperTarget along with Buy 4 Less and 2 Homelands along my way (without having to make special trips). I am one of the minority on this board that would find it ideal to live next to a Wal-Mart SuperCenter.

[BG918]

I do laugh at a couple of my friends that live downtown (2 in Heritage Hills, 1 in Putnam Heights and 2 in Deep Deuce). They brag about living downtown and being able to "walk to everything". The reality though is other than the 2 in Deep Deuce who occasionally walk into Bricktown, they all still get in their car and drive to everything downtown. If you're going to drive anyway, then what's an extra 5-10 minutes and avoid the high cost of living. I think the wife and I will most likely bike to everything when we move. Or, maybe that 2-seater Segway will be available!

Whether you walk or not depends on the weather. If it's too hot, too cold, or raining you will probably just drive unless it's just a couple blocks away. It also depends on your outfit. You are less likely to walk long distances if you have a suit on or, for women, high heels. I live in an urban neighborhood and walk/bike a lot less than I thought I would when I moved there.

[SSEiYah]

I am one of the minority on this board that would find it ideal to live next to a Wal-Mart SuperCenter.

Not Really. OKC does not have a Frey Meyer. These stores are still prevalent in the west. They charge a little more than Walmart however you are able to flag down a worker easily to help you find something. Walmart is a different story. If yo do not know where something is you are pretty much sh** out of luck. Good luck finding someone to help you find it.

OKC needs a Fred Meyer Store, they always have associates on hand to help you out. If you go to Walmart, you better know where stuff is, not only that, you better be ready to wait 10 extra minutes in the Checkout line. This bothers me, however I do not know of another store in OKC which has any of the same products at the same price points.

Grocery-wise it is easy to avoid walmart,but what about everything else?

[aintaokie]

My wife & I both work downtown & would love to live downtown. But even with good paying jobs, the housing is out of our price range. So we'll keep driving in from 15-20 minutes away.

[Larry OKC]

Not Really. OKC does not have a Frey Meyer. These stores are still prevalent in the west. They charge a little more than Walmart however you are able to flag down a worker easily to help you find something. Walmart is a different story. If yo do not know where something is you are pretty much sh** out of luck. Good luck finding someone to help you find it.

OKC needs a Fred Meyer Store, they always have associates on hand to help you out. If you go to Walmart, you better know where stuff is, not only that, you better be ready to wait 10 extra minutes in the Checkout line. This bothers me, however I do not know of another store in OKC which has any of the same products at the same price points.

Grocery-wise it is easy to avoid walmart,but what about everything else?

Have no idea what a Fred Meyer is so can't comment there but agree with the help part of your post (especially if the Wal-Mart has recently been remodeled where they moved everything around as the associates don't have any better idea where stuff is than the customers).

[DirtLaw]

I lived downtown for 2 years in the Montgomery and loved it! I moved out of downtown and bought a house a few years ago and now am just waiting to get back downtown! Not having a grocery store was not a big deal to me at all. Growing up we had to drive several blocks to get to a grocery store, so an extra five minutes of driving is not a big deal. The crowd that loves to harp on the lack of a grocery store issue acts like if you live downtown you will have a 4 hour drive to get groceries, which is amusing. The lack of retail argument goes the same way ...

[TheTravellers]

That's the great thing about OKC. You can choose to live in Edmond, Moore, MWC, etc. and still get to downtown in 10-15 minutes to do whatever you want. ...

Actually, no you can't. We've been downtown numerous times in the past few weeks (OKCMOA, OK History Center (not really downtown), Cirque du Soleil) and it takes pretty much 30 minutes to get downtown from NW 164th/Penn. I've timed it because I hate living where we do and we would like to move closer, so I time the segment from NW 164th/Penn to NW 63rd/Broadway (so I can tell my wife her commute would be 15 minutes less when we hit that point :-) ) and it's about 15 minutes, then about another 10-15 minutes to get downtown and parked. That's driving approximately the speed limits.

We don't live downtown, but we want to live closer in than we are (we had pretty much no choice as to where we live now, due to time restraints on when we flew here from Seattle to find a place to live). We won't live downtown because we've rented in multi-unit complexes for the past 20 or so years and just get very tired of sharing walls. We want an older home in Heritage Hills/Mesta Park/Midtown/somewhere around there.

[BBatesokc]

I said you can live in these places, I didn't say no matter where you live in these cities. I live in the Mid-Del area and it takes us 12 minutes. Relatives and friends live in Edmond (near Broadway or I-35) and they can be downtown within 15 minutes. My wife's co-worker lives in Moore and she's to work downtown within 15 minutes too.

I do find it funny our society is such that 20-30 minutes is unacceptable.

[MadMonk]

Actually, no you can't. We've been downtown numerous times in the past few weeks (OKCMOA, OK History Center (not really downtown), Cirque du Soleil) and it takes pretty much 30 minutes to get downtown from NW 164th/Penn. I've timed it because I hate living where we do and we would like to move closer, so I time the segment from NW 164th/Penn to NW 63rd/Broadway (so I can tell my wife her commute would be 15 minutes less when we hit that point :-) ) and it's about 15 minutes, then about another 10-15 minutes to get downtown and parked. That's driving approximately the speed limits.

Don't know what options you have, but have you tried different routes or times? I worked DT for a while and live in far NW OKC and could get to work in 20-25 minutes (taking the turnpike to I-40), but the total time depended a lot on when I left for work. There was a sweet spot window where I could make my best time, but ten minutes on either side of that I started to run into heavier traffic. The only time I went over 30 minutes was due to an accident on the I-40 bridge over I-44.

I do find it funny our society is such that 20-30 minutes is unacceptable.

Yeah, it's all relative. I have friends in Dallas and Charlotte that just roll their eyes if I happen to mention it took me a whole 30 minutes to drive to work.

[OKCMallen]

Actually, no you can't. We've been downtown numerous times in the past few weeks (OKCMOA, OK History Center (not really downtown), Cirque du Soleil) and it takes pretty much 30 minutes to get downtown from NW 164th/Penn. I've timed it because I hate living where we do and we would like to move closer, so I time the segment from NW 164th/Penn to NW 63rd/Broadway (so I can tell my wife her commute would be 15 minutes less when we hit that point :-) ) and it's about 15 minutes, then about another 10-15 minutes to get downtown and parked. That's driving approximately the speed limits.

We don't live downtown, but we want to live closer in than we are (we had pretty much no choice as to where we live now, due to time restraints on when we flew here from Seattle to find a place to live). We won't live downtown because we've rented in multi-unit complexes for the past 20 or so years and just get very tired of sharing walls. We want an older home in Heritage Hills/Mesta Park/Midtown/somewhere around there.

You practically live in Deer Creek/Edmond. 25 mins to be parked downtown is a nice time.

[Kerry]

The Publix in Atlantic Station (midtown Atlanta) has home delivery for people that live in or near Atlantic Station. You can shop in person and they will take it to your home, or you can shop on-line and have it delivered. Of course, Publix sells wine so they won't be in Oklahoma anytime soon.

[gen70]

Don't know what options you have, but have you tried different routes or times? I worked DT for a while and live in far NW OKC and could get to work in 20-25 minutes (taking the turnpike to I-40), but the total time depended a lot on when I left for work. There was a sweet spot window where I could make my best time, but ten minutes on either side of that I started to run into heavier traffic. The only time I went over 30 minutes was due to an accident on the I-40 bridge over I-44.


Yeah, it's all relative. I have friends in Dallas and Charlotte that just roll their eyes if I happen to mention it took me a whole 30 minutes to drive to work.

I worked in downtown Charlotte and every morning and every evening the traffic was like a massive NASCAR race. It was terrible.

[MadMonk]

I worked in downtown Charlotte and every morning and every evening the traffic was like a massive NASCAR race. It was terrible.

LOL, I lived there for a number of years and go back to vist from time to time so I know what you mean.

[Patrick]

1) No

2) Happen to like the peace and quiet out in far northwest OKC. Like the schools. Like my yard. Like the space. Don't like feeling cramped. Can't afford the same square footage I currently have in downtown.

[dismayed]

I don't live downtown.

I used to always want to, and have looked into it once a year for many years. The prices wouldn't bother me if I thought they were realistic. As it is, I can't believe OKC developers think they can charge what they are charging. I would be terrified to buy something downtown for fear of it dropping in value by tens of thousands of dollars, leaving me holding the bag. Downtown does not yet have a proven track record. The other issue is what many have already commented on... value. I just don't see it. For the few measly things going on down there it just isn't worth it. Plus I have never really found downtown OKC, particularly Bricktown and Deep Deuce and points in between, to be as pedestrian-friendly as they should. I mean if the whole point of downtown living is density and effective sidewalks, why do developers think they can charge top dollar when we have neither?

I think Kerry and others have the right idea. I have been thinking of moving recently, but if I do it would likely be to Heritage Hills, Mesta Park, or one of the other historic neighborhoods just north of downtown. There are just so many more benefits to living in that area, and with light-rail potentially being built out into that area in the next few years it makes it even more desirable not to live in downtown. And at least for the moment you still have a shot at finding a good price on a home in that area, and then taking the money you would be saving by not living downtown and buying a summer beach condo somewhere instead.